Topic: Help! I'm being ripped off (and I don't like it!)

[al]

I just stumbled upon a video on metacafe.com which describes how to build your own 35mm pinhole camera from a matchbox.  Pretty cool you might think, but the video is of the exact process I described in a blog article some two years ago. Every last detail, right down to making a clicking frame counter from a spiral document holder.

Now I put these details up for the good of mankind but was still suprised at how much interest it generated and often joked that next time I really need to invent something that I could actually make a living out of!

Anyway,  I was a bit narked cos this guy is passing the idea off as his own, "I did some research and came up with an idea for a matchbox camera"  Yeah right, tosser.

BUT then I realised that metacafe.com pay video producers on a per-view basis!  This guy has clocked up over $250 in 2 weeks!

I don't want money for this idea, but I'm f***ing annoyed that someone else is earning from it, without the balls to even quote his sources.

I'd rather you didn't visit the site to view the vid cos he'll just end up earning more!

Calling the power of filmwasters, especially those with extensive legal training     Is there anything I can do here?

al

[Ed Wenn]

Everyone, for what it's worth Al is a personal friend who I've known for about 20 years (sorry mate, it really has been that long at least...god we're getting old). I can therefore vouch for the fact that he isn't someone who will make a fuss out of nothing or jump to the wrong conclusion on stuff like this.

So, given the above can anyone offer any words of advice? I know Susan and one or two others have suffered in similar ways; how did you deal with it?

Al, have you contacted the person yet to put your case and ask him to elaborate on what exactly his 'research' consisted of? Might be a good starting point. You could also contact the video hosting company and put your case. Certainly several people here at FW would be happy to confirm the date that you originally posted the matchbox pinhole process article.

Hope this gets the ball rolling.

[Sandeha Lynch]

Al, my sympathies.

The originality of an idea is very difficult to prove, especially, I'd suggest, with low-tech devices such as pinholes. However, have you transcribed the text he uses in the vid?  If any phrases are identical to your text, then you'd have a strong case for plagiarism.

[LT]

I'm afraid I cant advise you (6 weeks studying does not a lawyer make ) - but that is rough.  Even if you had a case legally, I expect any action you might take would cost more than the expected outcome, so wouldnt be worth pursuing - unless this guy makes a million from it.

[Ed Wenn]

Looks like the best approach would be to try and shame him into taking it down or at least into giving you credit for the process. After all, if he made the video then I suppose that's what he's getting the money for, not just the idea itself, so it wouldn't hurt him to add a link to your blog or cite you as a major influence...or maybe it would. 

 

Tricky one.

[LT]

and the problem would be proving that he didn't get the information through a 3rd party source - he may be ripping off someone else who is ripping you off!

"I did some research"  - he looked at your page, " and came up with an idea"  he doesnt say it was HIS idea, just AN idea (yours actually).  So he's not entirely claiming the idea as his own based on that sentence.  He is still making money off the back of your idea though.

Intellectual property is a huge area  - factoring in international and internet issues just complicates it further. You'd probably have to show you'd made some reasonable attempts to get him to acknowledge where he'd got the idea from - it's all about Alternative Conflict Resolution these days you know.  If he still refuses to cite you, then maybe you'd have a case if you can prove the idea was yours in the first place, and let's face it, matchbox pinholes themselves are nothing new ... but the specific details you describe in your blog post maybe ..... 

I'm just typing as I think here - dont take any of this as being based as any kind of expert knowledge.

good luck al.

Leon

[al]

Thanks for the input guys.

My gripe is not really about IP rights, the plans for this camera have spread across the blogs and now hundreds, maybe thousands have been made and people have got fun/entertainment/education/art etc out of them.  It's made film/pinhole/diy photography accessable to anybody, at zero cost as the materials are all junk.   I've also seen loads of great spin-off designs, all excellent and original, and of course free!

It just leaves a bitter taste to know someone is sponging off an open, public domain set of ideas, especially ones that were my baby!

The whole incident has really got me thinking, and questioning my own motives too.... I'll probably post a load more stuff to get it off my chest later when I have more time!


thanks again,

al.

[Francois]

Things like this are hard to prove... even for a good invention worth millions.

Here's a tip from an inventor. If you don't want to apply for patent (because it's very expensive) but want to date your invention, the best way is to draw up the plans, put it in an enveloppe and mail it to yourself through registered mail. When the mailman deliveres the enveloppe, you put it sealed in the file (don't open it or you'll void the proof). The post office stamp will certify the date.

If you want to prove the idea you put online was the first, it might also be possible to find old versions of your blog on the wayback machine .

Hope it helps in some way...

[al]

Al, have you contacted the person yet to put your case and ask him to elaborate on what exactly his 'research' consisted of? Might be a good starting point. You could also contact the video hosting company and put your case.

There's no way to contact users of metacafe.com through either email or PM.

I did post a reply comment to the "i did research and came up with this idea, using a matchbox as a camera body" comment, simply stating that I didn't think he did come up with the idea and that it was bad form to directly copy someone elses' work without a reference, but also actually complimenting the video itself (this was before I realised that this video had been made to make money!)

He/she has chosen to delete my comment without response.

So it does indeed suck. No chance to put forward my point of view.

However, I also think that following my comment the producer thinks I'm taking some kind of action against his video rating, as today this comment was posted:

"Whats wrong with my rating, just few days ago it was 4.5. Now its only 3 at the moment. Its a great camera. Read comments. Its obvious, somebody rates down this video on purpose. Do you guys envy me?"

Reading the rules of the site it may be that producers don't get paid if their rating drops <3, so I guess that's why he's worried.

[lauraburlton]

Hmmm..... well two could play at this game...if the video can be rated, who is to say that the whole of your online "family" rates it at a 0 or a 1??? Might be petty but then again he is being an arse. Just a thought;)

[moominsean]

i don't understand how they could possibly pay every person money for video views. seems a bit suspicious to me. i'm always dubious about that kind of garbage.

i assume you checked out the copyright infringement page:

http://www.metacafe.com/copyright/

but you'd have to prove it. or you could just leave one semi-rude comment a day on his video.

[Francois]

There's an easy way to prove it
If you check the Internet archive at the following link
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://alspix.blog.co.uk/

You will see their robot archived your page for the first time on February 25th, 2006
The camera is already listed on the blog.

Which certifies that you published it at this date or prior to it.
If he can't prove he discovered it before you did, he loses the copyright...

[gothamtomato]

At first I thought, maybe, it was a coincidence. But seeing your follow-up posts about the guy's reactions, my gut tells me that, yes, he is ripping you off and knows it.

I don't know where you are, but here in the US, in some cities, there is a group called 'Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts', who might be able to help. If you cannot contact the offender through the site, then you should contact the site itself & the server, and getting a letter from a legal firm will make them sit up and take notice more than getting a letter from you.

That's the thing about people who rip off others people-- they always think that, either they are going to get away with it, or that the other person is simply going to be powerless to do anything meaningful back at them.

And-- if you haven't yet registered the copyright, do it immediately. Even though you probably cannot copyright the matchbox camera itself, you can register your article. And see if you can get documentation of when you originally posted your article.

[Francois]

I feel the patent is probably in the "clicker" mechanism.

[Skorj]

`Don't get mad, get even...`

[al]

`Don't get mad, get even...`

I think I might have to get even then, cos I can feel the madness coming back 

I posted a few more comments. He's systematically deleting them.

So I posted a message to the matchbox pinhole pool on flickr, outlining what's happened, giving the link and inviting people to view the video and make up their own mind and comment/rate as they see fit.  Let the public decide and all that.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/matchboxpinhole/discuss/72157603041405295/

I'm don't think and sincerely hope I'm not mr big ego, but like everyone else I guess I kind of get a kick out of knowing I did something other people found useful or enjoyed.  That's why we're here isn't it?!  This one little insignificant thing was the first, and most probably only time that something I've been responsible for has been made, used and enjoyed all over the world by so many (well, many for lil' ol me) people.   It made me feel good, and this whole incident has really soured it 

There, anyway, it's off my chest now.  And thanks again to everyone who's posted with advice and thoughts here, everyone has been really helpful.  Good old Filmwasters, for the good times, and the bad    Now where's that whiskey....

[Ed Wenn]

Good approach, Al. Flickr is a pain in many ways, but good for rallying numbers of like-mindeds behind your cause. You will be vindicated I'm sure.

Whiskey's in Tracey's bedside cabinet; she hides it in there after that one time when you got drunk and joined a spoof punk rock band.

 

[al]

Whiskey's in Tracey's bedside cabinet; she hides it in there after that one time when you got drunk and joined a spoof punk rock band.

 

Spoof? SPOOF??!!  We r 4-real!  Tru punx! 

Actually we have a practice this weekend for the first time in about a year, we're booked to play a party in Dec then next year, gulp, a wedding!

Anyway, with a clear head this morning I've decided that enough is enough and I was only fueling things with that flickr post, so I'm deleting the topic (an advantage of being a power-crazed group admin), and getting on with my life.  It woke to the realisation of just how patheticly petty things were becoming.