Author Topic: Keeping mixed Ilford paper developer from oxidizing (Read 3643 times)

John Robison · « **on:** November 13, 2016, 09:21:07 PM »

Title says it, how can I keep mixed Ilford MG developer from oxidizing. I don't use a lot of paper developer and the smallest quantity I can buy makes 5 L. Even in full quart amber bottles the stuff turns brown. My bottles were new but I notice the gasket in the cap is paper. I thought it was sufficient to exclude air but apparently not. Do you think a rubber gasket would help? This batch was mixed about 1 year ago. Should I mix 1 qt at a time just cap the remaining concentrate? I managed to get through about one and a half bottles before the remaining three bottles turned a very dark, almost black color.

Oh I already know the obvious answer, print more, complain less. But aside from that how do you folks deal with this issue.

Francois · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2016, 09:33:18 PM »

I don't know, but in the old days on wine bottles the corks used to be sealed with melted bees wax... maybe doing the same would help a lot.

Also, mixing from distilled water will ensure that there is minimal amounts of dissolved oxygen in the solution.
Also, since MG dev is a liquid, you can mix just the minimal amount and rise the level of the concentrate using marbles.

John Robison · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2016, 03:08:06 AM »

Thanks Francois, I've heard about the marble trick. I'm thinking the main problem with my mixed solutions was the lid wasn't gas tight. Wonder what Ilford would say about mixing one qt and recapping the concentrate? When it arrives it's sealed of course. If the only air that can react with it is what's left in the top of the bottle you would think that is not enough to do much damage. Ilford does have a blog site so perhaps I could post my question there.

One time, many years ago I tried to save Kodak powder paper developer in a glass jar but it turned brown is just a few months.

Francois · « **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2016, 01:04:46 PM »

Those things are surprisingly sensitive to air.
I might be mistaken but I think they possibly vacuum the bottles before putting the seal on them.

I know decades ago there was a product in a can that you'd spray inside the bottles to remove the air and make the chems last longer. I wonder is fanned air wouldn't do the same since the can contains no air to begin with?

Late Developer · « **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2016, 01:45:38 PM »

When I had a darkroom, I used to keep liquids in what I can only describe as plastic collapsible / concertina type bottles. I think Paterson used to make them. As you used the liquid, you pushed down on the bottle to minimise its size and, in doing so, restrict the amount of air inside. They seemed to work well enough for me.

Here's a link to show you. There's some listed on eBay:

http://www.studentphotostore.co.uk/storage-bottle/642-3x-darkroom-chemical-storage-bottle-1l-white.html

John Robison · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2016, 03:30:10 PM »

Quote from: Francois on November 14, 2016, 01:04:46 PM

Those things are surprisingly sensitive to air.
I might be mistaken but I think they possibly vacuum the bottles before putting the seal on them.

I know decades ago there was a product in a can that you'd spray inside the bottles to remove the air and make the chems last longer. I wonder is fanned air wouldn't do the same since the can contains no air to begin with?

I think I remember that Francois, it must have been CO2 in a can because it is heavier than air and would displace the air. For my next batch I'm going to get phenolic caps with the inverted cone shaped LDPE liners, they are advertised as gas tight. I think I'll mix into distilled water, who knows what's in city water.

Seen those collapsible plastic bottles too, years ago. Thought at the time they would be hard to clean. I generally like and use the amber Boston round bottles, in 16 and 32 ounce sizes. Another thought is to order a dozen gas tight 100ml plastic bottles and decant the concentrate into them, then just mix one quart at a time.
All summer long, I can't print, the bathroom/darkroom gets too hot and stuffy, so I wait for the months between November and March although I will nick in occasionally to develop pinhole paper negatives because that requires minimal equipment and set up time.

Francois · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2016, 08:05:26 PM »

Originally, those cans were not CO2 but environmentally nasty Freon... But those were the 70's at a time where all that mattered was whisky and horsepower.

Indofunk · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2016, 09:23:57 PM »

Quote from: John Robison on November 14, 2016, 03:30:10 PM

Seen those collapsible plastic bottles too, years ago. Thought at the time they would be hard to clean. I generally like and use the amber Boston round bottles, in 16 and 32 ounce sizes. Another thought is to order a dozen gas tight 100ml plastic bottles and decant the concentrate into them, then just mix one quart at a time.

I use an accordion bottle for my C41 dev, and it works fine for my purposes. I'm also using a couple of 100mL brown glass bottles for my HC110 concentrate, but this batch is the first time I'm using the decant-and-save technique, so I won't know how well it works until I pop open the last bottle... and the way I use HC110 that probably won't be for a couple of years

Francois · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2016, 09:56:51 PM »

I just leave the HC110 in the bottle as a syrup and draw what I need using a syringe that came with an ink refill kit to which I replaced the non-pointy needle with a small piece of vinyl tubing. So far, I've been able to use all but a maybe one dev, not because it was exhausted but because I chickened-out when seeing how brown it had become.

Bryan · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2016, 09:58:56 PM »

I always have fresh beer in the fridge.

Indofunk · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2016, 10:13:59 PM »

John Robison · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2016, 01:21:17 AM »

Quote from: Bryan on November 14, 2016, 09:58:56 PM

I always have fresh beer in the fridge.

Never drank beer till I hit 40 and married a canuck. You just can't hang around her folks and not have a beer. I prefer a dark stout, down in the states Trader Joe's sells Stockyard Oatmeal stout which has become my favorite. When it gets really hot however I like a sharp and very cold IPA.

How's that for thread drift.

Bryan · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2016, 04:56:29 AM »

For drinking I prefer a good Stout or Porter, I'll have to try the Stockyard Stout next time I go to Trader Joes. For developing film in Beerenol I prefer a cheap lager, don't want to waste the good stuff.

http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=8157.0

irv_b · « **Reply #13 on:** November 18, 2016, 07:53:36 PM »

I struggle to keep colour chems from going off so was thinking of getting some of this

http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Tetenal-Protectan-Anti-Oxidan-Spray-400ml/product/53177/105193/

Francois · « **Reply #14 on:** November 18, 2016, 10:10:10 PM »

That would work.

Pete_R · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2016, 08:31:54 AM »

The real answer to the original question is - you can't.

MG dev is not designed to be kept as a working solution. Ilford say:

"Prepare the working strength solutions of
MULTIGRADE and PQ UNIVERSAL developers
directly before they are needed."

They also say:

"Working strength MULTIGRADE developer, PQ
UNIVERSAL and BROMOPHEN left in an open
dish should not be kept for more than one working
day. If stored in a tightly capped bottle they may
last up to 24 hours. "

So I think you're trying to do the impossible.

I have the same issue with film dev as I don't use it enough so I decant the fresh stock solution into smaller containers - making sure they're full to the top. Doing it that way means only the bottle currently being used gets opened and the others stay sealed so reducing the exposure to the air. I've kept dev for over a year that way.

John Robison · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2016, 02:03:46 PM »

Quote from: PeterR on November 19, 2016, 08:31:54 AM

The real answer to the original question is - you can't.

MG dev is not designed to be kept as a working solution. Ilford say:

"Prepare the working strength solutions of
MULTIGRADE and PQ UNIVERSAL developers
directly before they are needed."

They also say:

"Working strength MULTIGRADE developer, PQ
UNIVERSAL and BROMOPHEN left in an open
dish should not be kept for more than one working
day. If stored in a tightly capped bottle they may
last up to 24 hours. "

So I think you're trying to do the impossible.

I have the same issue with film dev as I don't use it enough so I decant the fresh stock solution into smaller containers - making sure they're full to the top. Doing it that way means only the bottle currently being used gets opened and the others stay sealed so reducing the exposure to the air. I've kept dev for over a year that way.

So from this it would seem the best way would be to mix only 100ml 1:9 in distilled water to make 1 qt. and then leave the rest of the concentrate in its original bottle, adding marbles to bring the fluid to the top. It must be the dissolved oxygen already in tap water that kills the developer.

For film I use Kodak HC110 mixing directly from concentrate 1:60 as a one shot. I decanted the original bottle into 4oz. bottles but even when the concentrate turns dark orange it still seems to work just fine.

My original quart of mixed MG developer lasted about 9 months and got to a medium tea color before it turned dark brown and stopped working. I like Ilford chems because they are already in liquid form and are easier to mix than powders.

Francois · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2016, 02:43:46 PM »

Why not do like hc-110 and mix as you go?
The good thing about liquid developer is that you can use a syringe to measure.

Pete_R · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2016, 04:55:18 PM »

Quote from: John Robison on November 19, 2016, 02:03:46 PM

So from this it would seem the best way would be to mix only 100ml 1:9 in distilled water to make 1 qt. and then leave the rest of the concentrate in its original bottle, adding marbles to bring the fluid to the top.

The problem with that is you're exposing the whole amount to air each time you open it and then stir it up by adding marbles. Better to decant it into smaller containers so that the majority remains untouched until you need it. Small brown bottles are cheap.

I just found this on another forum while searching for something different...

"I have the remnants of a 5 litre container of Ilford multigrade developer which was decanted out into 1/2 litre bottles and that was over a year ago. The last bottle is about to be used and it is clear and as good as when 1st made. Part bottles go off quite quickly, so when I open a fress 1/2 litre bottle I decant this further into 5 x 100cc bottles which perserves its freshness."

The other idea I had, and what I was searching for, was the possibility of freezing developer in pre-measured quantities. Has anyone ever tried that? Seems lots of (conflicting) discussions about the possibility around the net but can't find anyone who's actually tried it.

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #19 on:** November 19, 2016, 06:32:02 PM »

Quote from: PeterR on November 19, 2016, 04:55:18 PM

The other idea I had, and what I was searching for, was the possibility of freezing developer in pre-measured quantities. Has anyone ever tried that? Seems lots of (conflicting) discussions about the possibility around the net but can't find anyone who's actually tried it.

50:50 ... probably worth a try, but can I suggest adding a few drops of blue food dye?

Francois · « **Reply #20 on:** November 19, 2016, 08:31:27 PM »

Freezing dev...
Just don't give the ice cubes to your guests

I know lot of people are against freezing the stuff but I don't see any reason why it can't be refrigerated.

John Robison · « **Reply #21 on:** November 20, 2016, 12:47:29 AM »

It would be neat if Ilford made their paper developer and fixer available in a heavy syrup that could be packed in the packaging that ketchup and mustard comes in at fast food joints. Each packet would make 1 L, you would just tear off the corner and squeeze the contents into distilled water to make up a working strength batch. They could be marketed as boxes of 5, 10, or 20 packs.
Well I'm going to order up some more Ilford developer from B&H, takes about a week to get here. Meanwhile I found a packet of unopened Dektol powder that I forgot I even had, I will mix that next.

Francois · « **Reply #22 on:** November 20, 2016, 02:45:57 PM »

Why don't you just send the idea to ilford's info line?
They always respond to their customer ideas.

rpavich · « **Reply #23 on:** November 27, 2016, 07:47:30 AM »

I'm glad you mentioned this!

I have a 5L jug that I opened and just assumed that since it was not diluted that it would be ok being closed tightly.

Whoops! it's starting to turn a color..not bad but it's certainly not clear.

I decanted it into 2.5L jugs and sprayed Protectan on it and sealed them up with baggies under the cap.