Author Topic: Further adventures in E4... (Read 8392 times)

Indofunk · « **on:** June 12, 2015, 07:50:21 PM »

When we last left our hero, he had tried shooting a roll of Ektachrome E4 process at a stop-and-a -bit slower, and processed it in C41 chemicals at about 75^oF. You can see the results here.

Recently I bought 6 rolls of 120 film on ebay, but did not realize that they are all E4 until after I'd shot a roll. So I had to decide how to process it. Since the definition of insanity is to repeat something and expect different results, I tried to repeat the above process and hope that this emulsion turns out differently, or maybe it's not as expired/poorly stored, or whatnot. It was a hot day, so I couldn't get my chems below 82^oF (without ice, that is, and I couldn't be arsed to do that

). Even though the blog that I originally read specifically stated that "80^o water will lift the emulsion right off", I decided in my infinite wisdom that if 80^o air won't affect the emulsion, why would 80^o water??

Well guess what ... turns out you can believe everything you read on the internet! Or at least this one thing. So here I am with 1/2 the emulsion off of the acetate, but what's that I see? There's an image on the acetate itself! So I go ahead and wipe off all the emulsion, working it with my thumbs. Result? Yeah, there are some light images, but the darkest thing on the filmstrip is marks from my thumbs removing the emulsion

So how did the image actually get onto the plastic? Is this typical of E4 film? To test this, I took the old developed E4 film I had and soaked a strip in hot water and peeled off the emulsion. Now I have a nice, completely blank piece of plastic

Anyways, advice would be appreciated on
1. how to develop E4
2. why there are some light images on the plastic
3. am I really insane?

Here's what the shots look like, scanned and corrected in Lightroom (mostly just increasing blacks and contrast so you can see something)

Kayos · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:21:57 PM »

1. Without E4 chems I don't know, unless you try rodinol then look at my film acceleration post?

2. Don't know

3. Yes

Indofunk · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:33:20 PM »

Peter suggested Rodinal as well, and I have no doubt it would work, but I'd like to see if I could somehow coax some color out of it. I guess I *did* coax a whole bunch of orange out of it already

Kayos · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:05:12 PM »

That's why I suggested the film acceleration, black and white to get an image, bleach by eye so no guess work, then a low temp c41 develop

If I can find some E4 film I will give it a go

Indofunk · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:20:37 PM »

Quote from: Kayos on June 12, 2015, 09:05:12 PM

That's why I suggested the film acceleration, black and white to get an image, bleach by eye so no guess work, then a low temp c41 develop

If I can find some E4 film I will give it a go

I can send you a roll.

Indofunk · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:47:18 PM »

I just reread your film acceleration thread and all the comments/explanations. My brain hurts

I'm still a bit scared to use color developer anytime after fixer has been used, because I'm pretty sure that no matter how much I wash it post-fix, I end up contaminating my color developer and killing it. But maybe I'll try B&W developer - stop - wash - then normal C41 (at room/low temperature)? That way at least I'll be fairly confident that the B&W dev actually develops whatever's on the film. Low temp C41 might be too weak for it.

Kayos · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2015, 10:08:55 PM »

I will cover the postage to Englandshire if you like

If it's 120 I suppose I will have to buy a suitable camera, as currently I don't have one :p
I have some almost used to capacity chems I can use, but checking my notes I have developed about 9 rolls of C41 since the acceleration experiment, and it still seems fine

Francois · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2015, 10:54:42 PM »

For adjusting the temperature, I keep a small can of V8 which I filled with water and sealed with epoxy in my fridge. When chems are too warm, I just plop this in the beaker for a few seconds and it drops the temperature right down. No ice or nothing.

Indofunk · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2015, 10:58:56 PM »

Quote from: Kayos on June 12, 2015, 10:08:55 PM

I will cover the postage to Englandshire if you like

If it's 120 I suppose I will have to buy a suitable camera, as currently I don't have one :p
I have some almost used to capacity chems I can use, but checking my notes I have developed about 9 rolls of C41 since the acceleration experiment, and it still seems fine

I have a roll of 135 E4, but it's the only one of its batch so I have no idea how it will turn out. These 6 rolls of 120 are from the same batch, so we could compare apples to apples, so to speak

Let me know if you want one of the 120 rolls.

I actually threw one of those rolls into the WPC, inspired by this thread to try Rodinal 1:100/1hr followed by a wash and then C41 at 75^oF (maybe using Francois' V8 can trick

)

Indofunk · « **Reply #9 on:** June 25, 2015, 05:43:59 PM »

We're getting closer!

I followed the dev scheme above, EXCEPT that I forgot to invert 1/2 hour into the stand development (caused a bit of bromide drag) AND I was an idiot and washed in tap water, which was coming out warm because I guess the pipes were warm. That caused the emulsion to lift off a bit and cause the pointing you see. Once I solve those two things, I think I'll have a winning E4 dev scheme!

Oh, also my scanner refused to invert the negs, so I had to scan them as positives and invert in Lightroom. I also applied a bunch of color correction/white balance.

So here they are!

So full dev scheme is:
- HC110 1:100 1hr
- wash
- C41 dev 75^oF 20min, inversions every 5 min
- C41 blix 75^oF 8min
- wash (MAKE SURE THIS IS AT 75^oF TOO!

)

Kayos · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2015, 06:35:14 PM »

Looking good

I narrowly missed out on a Mamiya press so I'm still without a 120 camera for now, but I aim to sort that soon

I also found this http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis111/cis111.pdf
But I imagine sourcing some/all of the chemicals could be tricky

Indofunk · « **Reply #11 on:** June 25, 2015, 07:27:28 PM »

I heard that E4 chems are super-dangerous, but that ingredient list doesn't look all that harmful. Or my chemistry knowledge is rusty

Yeah, probably the latter

I think I'll stick to the B&W stand -> RT C41 method for now. And then avoid buying E4 film in future

Francois · « **Reply #12 on:** June 25, 2015, 08:55:49 PM »

Unless you want to use it as a strictly B&W film...

Indofunk · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2015, 04:54:13 PM »

Developed another roll of the E4 Ektachrome, this time making sure that all chems and wash waters remained below 75^oF. I think the blix ended up being almost 70^o. Side note: keeping liquids below room temp is kind of more difficult that keeping them well above room temp

So the film itself finally came out well. No pointing or anything, I was even able to add stab and photoflow and squeegie it (ever so gently!) before hanging it. I was ready to come in here and write out a SUCCESS! post, but then I scanned it $:-\$

Once again, the V500 refused to accept that these are negatives, even though I set it to scan as a negative. So I tried scanning one image as a positive, and another as a negative and then reversing it in LR. Here are the results, straight off the scanner (or in the second case, straight from a LR reversal). It looks like the middle of the picture is a positive, but the edges are negative? Huh? Any help with this? I can't figure out a way to correct it in LR, although maybe I should just leave them as-is, since I like weird color shifts $:-\$ though this may be a bit too weird even for me

Scanned as a positive

Scanned as a negative, reversed in LR

jharr · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2015, 05:17:08 PM »

It looks like only the under-exposed bits around the edges are 'negative'. The sky (and the "Ruby's sign) is the same all the way across the frame, but the shadows get inverted. That is one of the weirdest things I have ever seen. You should put a "Lomo/Alternative" tag on it and sell it for $10K (my 'idea fee' is 60%). Better yet, patent the process and sell that to hipsters for $100 a pop (see fee structure above).

Kayos · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2015, 07:57:07 PM »

Finally some good results, is expired E4 processed in cold C41 the ultimate cross process?

Francois · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2015, 11:32:17 PM »

What I find slightly odd is the partial solarisation in the image...

Maybe you should try and scan it as an xpro film (scanning as a B&W negative+color image) and then use the levels eyedropper to select the clouds as white...

Indofunk · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2015, 11:45:08 PM »

Quote from: Francois on July 01, 2015, 11:32:17 PM

What I find slightly odd is the partial solarisation in the image...

You beat me to it!

I actually processed a normal 35mm CN roll shot at box speed in this exact manner to test it and I saw the same thing ... mostly monochrome, with solarization in shots that had a lot of sun. How do you think that happened?

Quote from: Francois on July 01, 2015, 11:32:17 PM

Maybe you should try and scan it as an xpro film (scanning as a B&W negative+color image) and then use the levels eyedropper to select the clouds as white...

I don't get that bolded part. My scanner software (EpsonScan) has 3 options: B&W negative, color negative, and color positive.

Francois · « **Reply #18 on:** July 02, 2015, 01:54:50 PM »

I meant you scan as a b&w image with 48 bit color on.

As for the solarization, I have absolutely no idea...
My thoughts would be some sort of contamination but I really don't know.

kitschretro · « **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2015, 11:18:33 PM »

These are pretty cool, have any of you done E2 before?

Peter84 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2015, 09:06:58 AM »

I've still got a roll of 35mm ektachrome infrared 2236 film in the freezer, also E4. Now that you managed to get decent results I might give that roll a try soon

Indofunk · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2015, 05:06:07 PM »

Infrared E4? Can't even imagine how that would come out

Francois · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2015, 09:22:08 PM »

You better start thinking about that film pretty darn soon!
They've stopped making the E4 version a long time ago and Infrared film isn't renowned to be the best keeping film around.

Peter84 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2015, 11:19:54 PM »

Well that's what I thought, I've kept it at -21C ever since I got it. Can't even remember how I got it in the first place. Think it was in a lot of film I got from the bay.
I was googling it today and found some fun images on flickr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/51853869@N08/sets/72157651604903738

I was thinking of making some smaller rolls (2 or 3) from the one, so there is some room for experimentation, of course you'll be the first to know how it went!

BTW: I've also found a post on some forum that you best use an older camera and not something newer like my EOS 33. There seems the be an infrared LED that counts the sprockets for determining the film advance. This seems to affect the infrared film. And that the film seems quite slow, around 64ASA

Indofunk · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2015, 11:39:58 PM »

Wow! Those pictures look amazing! They're all from the same user, I wonder how he processed them?

Peter84 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 17, 2015, 12:02:09 AM »

probably the propper E4 development proces.....

Indofunk · « **Reply #26 on:** July 17, 2015, 12:34:34 AM »

And where does one get those chems in 2015? (the date the photos were uploaded)

Francois · « **Reply #27 on:** July 17, 2015, 02:37:24 PM »

I know people used to process that film in E6 since for some reason Kodak kept producing the E4 version long after the process had been replaced...

I wonder how it would look cross processed in C41?

Indofunk · « **Reply #28 on:** July 17, 2015, 02:49:04 PM »

Well, assuming it behaves like my Ektachrome E4 film, it'll be a clear (or orange) piece of plastic if it's processed standard C41