Author Topic: Pentacon Six TL or Pentax 67? (Read 20332 times)

jharr · « **on:** March 06, 2015, 06:12:06 PM »

Being the cheapskate I am, I will probably not act on these urges, but my tax return money is coming and is already burning significant holes in my pockets. I have lots of fun cheap cameras, but I am woefully short in the 120 category, especially since my Yashica Mat 124G fell off its shelf and is now a little leaky. So I am contemplating diving into the 'bay' and looking for a 120 SLR. I like the price point and the 'adventure' of the Kiev, but I'm not really looking for a project. If I am dismissing it too quickly, please chime in on that brand, but really I am seriously looking at the two cameras in the subject line. They are comparably priced (within $100 or so), so I am looking for advice. There are plenty of "I love this camera" reviews and blogs out there for each of them, so I am wondering if anyone can tip the scales in favor of one or the other with something at least semi-quantitative. Note: "The wood handle on the Pentax makes it look super-awesome!" is not quantitative.

Also if there is a compelling reason to go with a 'blad-style' SLR instead of the '35mm' form factor, let me know opinions on that as well.

Thanks all,
James

Photo_Utopia · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2015, 06:26:00 PM »

I have owned the Pentax with a 90 and 150mm and can say it is a stellar camera with great lenses, I swapped it for a Rolleiflex otherwise it would still be here. Tank like quality that will keep on and on.
Here are two shots I took with it.

90mm lens Fuji Velvia

150mm Tmax 400

Nothing against the Russian and Eastern German cameras but in my opinion the Pentax will be more reliable-and did I mention the lenses are stellar?

hookstrapped · « **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:21:42 PM »

One thing about the 67 that is quantitative is it's incredibly bulky and heavy. I shot one for a few years and loved it at first but ended up hating it for the above-mentioned quantitative reasons.

jojonas~ · « **Reply #3 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:23:02 PM »

I read a thread in one of the pentacon 6 groups on flickr yesterday and the OP there asked advice on getting a reliable camera. a bunch of members chimed in and basically adviced him to look elsewhere

if you like the lenses, a new body from ARAX might be a better choice.
I like "blad-style" for shooting square but those arax/kievs are less reliable.

bottom line, if they were the same price range, I'd hit the pentax 6x7.

mmm.... 6x7

jojonas~ · « **Reply #4 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:25:49 PM »

btw, a lil picture comparison

hookstrapped · « **Reply #5 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:33:17 PM »

Which is one reason why I shoot a Mamiya 6.

Late Developer · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:59:11 PM »

I have no personal knowledge of the ARAX / Kiev but I know there are those who love them. I've had use of a Pentax 67 and, clearly, it is capable of excellent results. However, it is a lump and I find it a lot easier to shoot with a more traditional 120 SLR - i.e. Hasselblad and Bronica. The SQ series is superb and the S (or slightly better / pricier PS) lenses are fantastic. You can also pick them up for reasonable money of you look around.

These days, I use a Hasselblad 500c/m and 503c/x. They're a bit more expensive than the Bronica but I love the lenses and tank-like build quality. If you want lighter and more portable but still 120 quality, there are numerous 645 systems from Mamiya, Pentax, Contax, etc.

I doubt you'll go wrong with the Pentax but I didn't buy the one I used as it just didn't feel right trying to use something that big and heavy in the same way as a 35mm SLR.

SLVR · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2015, 10:03:46 PM »

After I'm done liquidating my cameras I'll only be left with my Pentax 67, Mamiya7, and Leica M5. There's something to be said about the pentax lenses. Very good glass, and id say superior to Bronica because of the speed you can get from the longer focal lengths. Also quality wise the Pentax lenses are hard to beat.

You are walking into a world of heavy cameras. Every MF SLR is going to be heavy. So I would take the weight factor out of the equation.

It was hard to let my bronica SQ-A go but I did end up moving away from it. I miss it from time to time but I realize that I wouldn't have shot with it anyways. Hasselblad and Bronica accessories can be expensive. Also Bronica is limited to an 8 sec max shutter speed, no bulb mode.

If you do end up getting a p67 I would urge you to look for a more recent P67 MLU rather than a 6x7. The MLU function is useful for doing timed exposures or if you want to have a better chance shooting 1/30th and 1/15th of a second.

I think you should evaluate the type of shooting you like to do and the requirements you need from the camera. You may be surprised and realize that an SLR isnt even what you're looking for.

jharr · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2015, 10:21:28 PM »

Quote from: SLVR on March 06, 2015, 10:03:46 PM

You may be surprised and realize that an SLR isnt even what you're looking for.

That is very good, yet infuriating advice.

This is one of my problems when talking about what I would consider a big ticket item (>$200... remember, I'm a skinflint). I start narrowing down the field and then something else catches my eye and after a month of researching, I end up not being able to decide and do nothing.

So, the 'kind' of shooting I do... mostly inanimate things and plants, landscapes, interesting shadows, etc. Very little people/portraiture. So not having a fast shutter is generally not a problem for me. I have successfully shot 1/8th handheld with my Yashica TLR. The neck strap and waist-level finder make that easy. So maybe a C330 is better suited?

Francois · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2015, 10:38:14 PM »

Let me tell you, hand holding a Yashica at 1/8 second and handholding a Pentax at 1/8 second are two very different things!
The Pentax has a mirror slap that can be measured on the Richter scale!
With all those big cameras, I strongly recommend using a monopod. While it may not be steady as a tripod, it keeps the weight of the camera firmly on the ground so that you can take relatively steady shots.

jojonas~ · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2015, 11:09:43 PM »

SLVR, the Bronica SQ-Ai has bulb mode though. And didn't the rest of the SQ series have T-mode, atleast most of them?

Quote from: jharr on March 06, 2015, 10:21:28 PM

So maybe a C330 is better suited?

those cameras sure seem nice! TLR but with the benefit of exchangeable lenses. the built in bellows enabling close focusing is a nice touch too. I was looking at them a bit before settling on my bronica c (with bulb mode)

Bryan · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2015, 11:24:40 PM »

I have a Mamiya C3, it's a great camera but it weighs about the same as a brick. I consider it a tripod camera and prefer my Rolleiflex for something more portable. The C330 may have more plastic in the construction making it lighter. I prefer composing shots with a TLR over an SLR.

johnha · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2015, 12:34:37 AM »

There are a lot of factors - format, interchangeable backs, WLF/prism finders, budget etc. I shoot Mamiya C330f, Mamiya 645, Bronica SQ & Pentax 6x7 cameras - if I were to keep only one it would be the P6x7.

I'm a Pentax shooter generally but the reasons are:
- I don't really need interchangeable backs (I have two P6x7 bodies).
- There is a huge selection of P6x7 lenses to choose from, many are fast for medium format (f/2.8 or faster), they are usually relatively inexpensive and reliable (as most don't have shutters there's much less to go wrong). They are much cheaper than equivalent Hasselblad lenses).
- Although big & heavy (although it feels lighter than it looks), it's very compact for a 6x7 SLR. Handling is little different to a large 35mm SLR - the wooden handle is great for carrying it but gets in the way of '35mm' type handling (left hand cradling under the lens). I've always used mine handheld - occasionally at 1/30th and couldn't see any significant shake when viewing Provia 100F through an 8x loupe. Some of the noise/shake comes from the instant return mirror returning to the 'down' position (I still can't get used to the non-return mirror in my Bronica SQB - feels strange not to be able to see through the finder immediately after the shot).

Bear in mind though that some are 40+ years old now and may have had very hard professional use and the metered prism finder only shows 90% of the field of view (un-metered ones show 100%). Flash sync is 1/30th unless you're using a leaf-shutter lens.

I haven't looked for any Pentacon 6 accessories, but would be surprised if they were as common as those for the P6x7. I looked at the Kiev before buying my Mamiya 645 in the '90s, reports of light leaks in new cameras were common.

John.

hookstrapped · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2015, 02:56:46 AM »

Doo-de-doo-dee-doo (rangefinders) dee-doo

Lighter, more compact, no massive mirror slap

scapevision · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2015, 03:08:22 AM »

I'll just leave these here...all from Pentax 67 and 105mm 2.4. And yes, I handhold it.

A smoke away by Scapevision, on Flickr

Pozer by Scapevision, on Flickr

Wheels by Scapevision, on Flickr

It's your choice if you're ready to go to the next level

jharr · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2015, 03:18:56 AM »

Scapevision, thanks for the photos. Those are certainly tantalizing.

Hook, are you suggesting something like the GF670? Anything with a $1500 entry level price tag is right out. I do have an Isolette III that I need a bellows for. That would be a relatively cheap solution to my problem, but I think I am thinking more in the 'system' arena. You know something that I can add to. That's why the SLR and C330 came to mind.

charles binns · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:11:38 AM »

If you want light and compact go for a holga or Diana.

My first MF camera was a Mamiya C330. An excellent camera though it weighed a ton - I should have never sold it to buy a Hasselblad if I'm honest. I also have a Kiev 60 which is another great camera, though it is anything but light and compact and the mirror slap is like a right hook from Ali.

hookstrapped · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:20:15 AM »

Quote from: jharr on March 07, 2015, 03:18:56 AM

Scapevision, thanks for the photos. Those are certainly tantalizing.

Hook, are you suggesting something like the GF670? Anything with a $1500 entry level price tag is right out. I do have an Isolette III that I need a bellows for. That would be a relatively cheap solution to my problem, but I think I am thinking more in the 'system' arena. You know something that I can add to. That's why the SLR and C330 came to mind.

I was thinking Mamiya 6 or 7, but they are pretty pricey. Relative bargains can be had with the Fuji GA645 cameras and Fuji GW670/680/690 cameras, but they are all fixed lens, coming in wide and normal variations.

Late Developer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:44:44 AM »

Quote from: hookstrapped on March 07, 2015, 10:20:15 AM

Quote from: jharr on March 07, 2015, 03:18:56 AM
Scapevision, thanks for the photos. Those are certainly tantalizing.

Hook, are you suggesting something like the GF670? Anything with a $1500 entry level price tag is right out. I do have an Isolette III that I need a bellows for. That would be a relatively cheap solution to my problem, but I think I am thinking more in the 'system' arena. You know something that I can add to. That's why the SLR and C330 came to mind.
I was thinking Mamiya 6 or 7, but they are pretty pricey. Relative bargains can be had with the Fuji GA645 cameras and Fuji GW670/680/690 cameras, but they are all fixed lens, coming in wide and normal variations.

I have a 690 III and that is fixed lens but the original 690 has interchangeable lenses. I've never used one but if the lenses are as good as the one on my 690 III you won't be disappointed.

ManuelL · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:49:01 AM »

For me bellows focusing vs. focusing lens was a big factor. I have been using cameras with bellows focusing for some time now (Mamiya C33, Mamiya RZ67). When I got a Hasseblad it just didn't feel right. Using it handheld I always had to change my grip (possibly also due to the 50mm, which locks the aperture into the shutter speed ring). I re-sold the Hassy after just one roll.
In small cameras and on a tripod having a focusing lens works great, but with a heavy medium format I personally find the bellows focusing much more intuitive.

scapevision · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2015, 01:45:12 PM »

Quote from: ManuelL on March 07, 2015, 10:49:01 AM

For me bellows focusing vs. focusing lens was a big factor. I have been using cameras with bellows focusing for some time now (Mamiya C33, Mamiya RZ67). When I got a Hasseblad it just didn't feel right. Using it handheld I always had to change my grip (possibly also due to the 50mm, which locks the aperture into the shutter speed ring). I re-sold the Hassy after just one roll.
In small cameras and on a tripod having a focusing lens works great, but with a heavy medium format I personally find the bellows focusing much more intuitive.

yeah, I had a brief encounter with a Hassy as well, got re-sold quite fast, I'd rather keep my Mamiya C220

Indofunk · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2015, 05:00:11 PM »

I have nothing to add to this discussion, but I'm loving the hyperboles for the force of MF mirror slaps!

jharr · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2015, 06:57:46 PM »

Gosh, after thinking, reading, googling, etc. I am starting to think more seriously about the Mamiya C330. I am hearing what people are saying about weight, but for me I think a little weight on a camera with a WLF might actually be favorable. I generally anchor my Yashica to my torso when shooting so as long as I am not breathing too heavy, it makes for a pretty stable platform. More weight would provide more stability (it seems to me) and since I wouldn't be using this camera for hiking or anything rigorous like that, it might fit the bill.

charles binns · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2015, 07:25:59 PM »

Quote from: jharr on March 07, 2015, 06:57:46 PM

Gosh, after thinking, reading, googling, etc. I am starting to think more seriously about the Mamiya C330. I am hearing what people are saying about weight, but for me I think a little weight on a camera with a WLF might actually be favorable. I generally anchor my Yashica to my torso when shooting so as long as I am not breathing too heavy, it makes for a pretty stable platform. More weight would provide more stability (it seems to me) and since I wouldn't be using this camera for hiking or anything rigorous like that, it might fit the bill.

It's heavy but I couldn't recommend it highly enough. I took mine plus a tripod to the Haute Route in Corsica. Not a good idea.

Kai-san · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2015, 07:37:43 PM »

Since nobody has stood up for the Pentacon Six TL, I feel like I will have to. The P6 is definitely lighter than the Pentax, and I have never felt that it is too heavy for handheld shooting, it feels just right. The mirror slap is very civilized, maybe partly because it stays up after firing the shutter. It handles a bit like a 35 mm SLR, but I definitely prefer to use it with a WLF. It is a reasonable camera and there is a wide range of lenses, both cheap and expensive. I have two Zeiss lenses, an 80mm normal lens and a 50mm wide, and I don't feel the need for any more.
I think there is one aspect that has not been focused on enough here and that is the format. I agree with Jonas that 6x7 is very nice, it feels more natural than 6x9 / 24x36. But I would not like to choose one or the other, I would like both! The square format is so special and has a beauty of it's own. So then that's said!

Cadha13 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2015, 07:58:38 PM »

I have never handled either of those cameras, but after fiddling with a Mamiyaflex C2 and using the RB67.

The C series TLRs are definitely much lighter than any 6x7 SLR.

The lenses and close up capabilities are what drew me to both cameras. If there's a lot of portraiture and close up, you can't beat the portability of the C series cameras.

Scan-150112-0020 by Cadha13, on Flickr

Just kind of saying the same old stuff, like flash and other things. I like the C series if I can't have a camera bag with me and the viewfinders are pretty good. If the lens goes bad, just swap it out and get another one while the other one is being repaired. The 80mm f2.8 lens is really solid performer and very quiet can get down to really slow handheld speeds around 1/8 sec. Also, you can leave the camera on the tripod when you load film, amazing.

Ezzie · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2015, 08:25:05 PM »

This question was debated at a small meeting of analog geeks here in Oslo Norway this afternoon. We all had at least two cameras each with us, from Pen halframes to Linhof Tecknikas. And a P6 (mine) and a P67. One of the others was in the market for super SLR with metering prism. Both these fit that bill. I must admit the P67 feels better in the hand, has a more assuring feel to all the levers and buttons. And a much better finder. Admittedly I have the original matte screen, and have yet to swap it for a Rick Olesson fresnel, but the difference was startling. The Pentax was streets ahead. The P67 also felt lighter, but that maybe down to a better (added) grip.

If I were to start from scratch I would probably go with the P67. But since I already have the P6, I will be sticking with it. It is not a bad camera, but maybe not in the same league as the Pentax.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2015, 08:57:14 PM »

I love my P6 even though I briefly thought about selling it. It's a nice camera, but you most definitely need to factor in the costs for a CLA. Otherwise you'll end up with overlapping frames. So from that standpoint the Pentax is certainly better. And don't even think of adding a prism finder to the P6! Your average P&S camera has a bigger and brighter finder.

But then there's the lenses. From the Arsat 30mm fish eye, to the legendary 180mm Sonnar and the nice 50mm Flektogon. All those were made in P6 mount and are (relatively) cheap.

Francois · « **Reply #28 on:** March 07, 2015, 08:58:38 PM »

I guess the first question to ask should have been if you prefer rectangles or squares?

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #29 on:** March 07, 2015, 08:59:23 PM »

And thanks for the reminder Eirik! I may need to get the Rick Oleson screen, too. Although the one I got back in the day for my Yashica Mat didn't really improve focusing. I had the feeling that the fresnel ring got in the way of focusing correctly off center.

mcduff · « **Reply #30 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:04:56 PM »

Haha Satish, I was gonna write this before you wrote the "hyperbole" comment: a p67 sounds like a howitzer's breech opening and closing!! But I 100% disagree with my frère Francois! It makes a racket but I think it somehow manages to be quite well balanced. I mainly have used it handheld and usually with slower film. I know it is loud but I kind of like it. Its sort of a "I'm takin' pichers here, ya got a problem with that??" kind if camera. It's bigger than life and is my fantasy bar-fight camera.

The best props I have for this camera is that it is a SLR that tintin will put up with ;-p But he raises a good point: James am I correct that you shoot a lot of non-slr? I love the slr but not everyone does. This is one big slr!!

This is an old pic

scapevision · « **Reply #31 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:36:08 PM »

Ok, on some serious note here: I have had Fuji GW690II, Hasselblad 500c/m, still have Mamiya C220 and Pentax 67. Each had its own benefits and quirks. But when people on the interwebs talk about weight they seem to forget to include a benchmark. What are you comparing it to?

1. Fuji GW690 in all 3 versions is rather light, it is about the same weight as your plastic 35mm SLR or a bit heavier. It is very ergonomic and easy to use. Only 8 shots per roll of 120. Loud shutter sound.
2. Hasselblad 500 is a great system camera, rather dependant on CLA, many components can go wrong, very expensive system. Weight is probably similar to metal 35mm SLRs, but lighter than Nikon F2. Very good travel choice. Sounds boxy when tripped.
3. Mamiya C220 is a bit lighter and smaller than C330, about the same size as a Hasselblad, same weight approximately. Sounds very quiet. Extremely nice for travel.
4. Pentax 67 is the biggest one out of these, also the heaviest. Weighs the same as a Nikon F2 with a lens. It's not too uncomfortable to carry around all day, but you will grow a muscle. Very easy to use, sounds like a shotgun with reload. 105mm produces some of the most 3 dimensional looking images I've seen out of any of the cameras I've listed. Mirror slap is grossly overrated in the myths of the interwebs. I am taking it on a vacation to California and will see if it's a good travel buddy.

mcduff · « **Reply #32 on:** March 07, 2015, 10:41:50 PM »

Ya that 105 lens is awesome. Obviously I concur on the mirror slap issue.

Ezzie · « **Reply #33 on:** March 08, 2015, 07:27:14 AM »

With an MLU version you can easily trip the mirror lock up just prior to the shutter release, when handheld. Not an option on the P6.

Ezzie · « **Reply #34 on:** March 08, 2015, 07:31:14 AM »

Oooh, and they both weigh about the same. Not much in it. The P67 owner also waxed lyrically about the 105, the sole reason he got the Pentax

But I have a Petzvar I hope to get round to using on the P6.

tkmedia · « **Reply #35 on:** March 08, 2015, 08:12:41 AM »

I shot and used most MF camera systems. I like the C330, easy to carry around for most lenses, weight is not an issue for me.. unless I switch off to a lighter camera during the same session. Pentax 6x7 it's a bit too heavy for me, but I never used the WLF on that system. Sometimes adding a grip and changing the finder will modify the way the camera handles. For light weigh eye level shooters I've settled on Fuji 645 series of cameras.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #36 on:** March 08, 2015, 08:27:57 AM »

You should also keep in mind that the way you carry a camera heavily influences how heavy it feels. I have a 2kg Bronica ETRSi (speed grip, prism, ...) and it feels like a brick with a normal strap. With a sling type strap I can however carry it for hours without any problem.

scapevision · « **Reply #37 on:** March 08, 2015, 02:27:21 PM »

Quote from: tkmedia on March 08, 2015, 08:12:41 AM

I shot and used most MF camera systems. I like the C330, easy to carry around for most lenses, weight is not an issue for me.. unless I switch off to a lighter camera during the same session. Pentax 6x7 it's a bit too heavy for me, but I never used the WLF on that system. Sometimes adding a grip and changing the finder will modify the way the camera handles. For light weigh eye level shooters I've settled on Fuji 645 series of cameras.

funny enough, I bought the WLF for the Pentax (I am a sucker for WLFs) and it cuts the weight of the camera by a third. Very nice to use with the huge 6x7 focusing screen, but not as quick as the prism obviously

johnha · « **Reply #38 on:** March 08, 2015, 03:07:40 PM »

Quote from: Urban Hafner on March 08, 2015, 08:27:57 AM

You should also keep in mind that the way you carry a camera heavily influences how heavy it feels. I have a 2kg Bronica ETRSi (speed grip, prism, ...) and it feels like a brick with a normal strap. With a sling type strap I can however carry it for hours without any problem.

It also depends on what you carry. My medium format bags are about the same size and weight as my 35mm bags (as near as makes no difference)*. I don't have as many lenses and don't carry around all the 'junk' I would normally carry in my 35mm bag 'just in case' (primes/zooms that cover the same focal lengths, flashgun, spare body, the junk I never bother to take out etc.).

A P6x7 with prism & lens is not substantially bigger/heavier than my 'fully loaded' Mamiya 645 (body, back, lens, winder & prism). It's not substantially bigger/heavier than my Bronica SQB with prism, back & lens. Obviously it's bigger/heavier than my C330f with lens & WLF (I don't have a prism). BUT I'm happier throwing the P6x7 over my shoulder than the above because the Mamiya/Bronica are much deeper due to the layout of the interchangeable back (and I feel the interface between body & back is a weak point). The C330f feels more vulnerable to the environment not having any protection for the focusing screen with the WLF.

* My usual P6x7 bag is a rather large Lowepro rucksac (which weighs 3Kg itself - but is wonderfully comfortable & secure heavily loaded). Fully loaded with 2x P6x7 bodies, 2x prisms**, 4 lenses, WLF, wooden grip, teleconverter, film, filters etc. it weighs a lot - but a single body, prism and couple of lenses will easily fit into a smaller bag making a reasonably lightweight 6x7 outfit.

** I need two prisms because one prism will only meter with one body and the other will only meter with the other body (I do not know why!).

John.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #39 on:** March 08, 2015, 03:15:17 PM »

Bloody hell! A 3kg bag AND two P67?!?

Anyway, as it has been mentioned before: Pick your preferred aspect ratio and the the camera. I love 6x6 and I can stand 6x4.5 so I have excluded all 6x7 and 6x9 cameras.

SLVR · « **Reply #40 on:** March 08, 2015, 03:54:13 PM »

Quote from: jojonas~ on March 06, 2015, 11:09:43 PM

SLVR, the Bronica SQ-Ai has bulb mode though. And didn't the rest of the SQ series have T-mode, atleast most of them?

This is true, but the t modes on the lenses are a gimmick at best. You have to unscrew a screw to release a switch that opens the lens. You have no shutter control. It seems it would turn the lens cap I to the shutter. Which is kind of rudimentary for such a "modern" camera

Francois · « **Reply #41 on:** March 08, 2015, 04:49:54 PM »

Quote from: Urban Hafner on March 08, 2015, 03:15:17 PM

Bloody hell! A 3kg bag AND two P67?!?

Yeah... I'd be OK for a short while but after a whole day of going around with that weight, I'd feel my spine crush under that weight!

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Mamiya Press so far...

jharr · « **Reply #42 on:** March 08, 2015, 04:57:40 PM »

As far as aspect ratio goes, I am not a fan of 6:4.5. I have a 645 mask for my Bessa 6x9 and never use it. 6x7 is a rectangle, but just barely. I'm not sure must people even notice the difference. I think I have changed my choices to the Pentax + WLF or the C330. I don't think weight is going to be a deciding factor. I tend to shoot almost exclusively normal primes, so lens selection and cost would be a minute consideration at best. Dependence on CLA will definitely be a factor. I want it to go " click " when I press the button without overlapping frames. More thinking/reading to do. Thanks everyone for the input. I am enjoying the discussion.

scapevision · « **Reply #43 on:** March 08, 2015, 06:01:41 PM »

Another thing to consider about the both your final choices: P67 has electronic shutter with battery required, Mamiya is fully mechanical, no batteries required.

tkmedia · « **Reply #44 on:** March 08, 2015, 08:54:39 PM »

Quote from: jharr on March 08, 2015, 04:57:40 PM

As far as aspect ratio goes, I am not a fan of 6:4.5.

I didnt like 645 ratio in the beginning either. but when playing with the bronica 645rf and fuji gs/ga series i ended up liking the portrait orientation and has grown on me. Still dont like the landscape 645.

jojonas~ · « **Reply #45 on:** March 09, 2015, 07:48:26 AM »

Quote from: scapevision on March 08, 2015, 06:01:41 PM

Another thing to consider about the both your final choices: P67 has electronic shutter with battery required, Mamiya is fully mechanical, no batteries required.

oh! I never would have guessed that the pentax 6x7 was battery dependent. the pentax 67 ii, sure -it's got an electric counter and stuff.

Andrej K · « **Reply #46 on:** March 09, 2015, 09:14:26 AM »

All the aforementioned cameras are great.

Two more observations:

System SLR cameras DO GET heavy - once you start adding this and that... Just be prepared for that. (It was the reason why I in the end sold my Bronica SQ system, which was otherwise great. Now I live with a TLR and a fuji GSW.)

When purchasing the P67, make sure you are buying with warranty or at least return option. I was drawn to the camera (I think I still am in a way), at one point I've had three bodies and not one was working.

johnha · « **Reply #47 on:** March 09, 2015, 10:16:31 PM »

Quote from: Francois on March 08, 2015, 04:49:54 PM

Quote from: Urban Hafner on March 08, 2015, 03:15:17 PM
Bloody hell! A 3kg bag AND two P67?!?
Yeah... I'd be OK for a short while but after a whole day of going around with that weight, I'd feel my spine crush under that weight!

The bag is a Lowepro Pro Trekker 400 AW, it more than weighs for itself when heavily loaded because the harness is so comfortable. The waist belt is very good, allowing you to get the weight on your hips rather than your shoulders (recommended for heavy rucksacks). Unless I want to shoot chrome & mono, I'll leave a body at home (or I've got one slung over my shoulder). It's big enough to hold both bodies with lenses attached or one body and the other with the 200mm and 2x teleconverter attached.

While I wouldn't want to hike into the wilderness with it at my usual all up weight of 11kg, I can carry it 5 miles on the flat without too much problem.

Comparing the P6x7 and C330 (like for like with either WLFs or prisms) isn't going to offer much of a weight or bulk saving although they are different cameras. A Bronica 6x6 (S2 or SQ) or Mamiya/Bronica 645 are other 'system' alternatives (Hasselblad's seem to 'lock-up' if not handled carefully and the lenses are too expensive for me, an RB/RZ would simply be too bulky). The Rollei 6xxx series did appeal to me (especially for the 'rotating' 6x4.5 back), but they are dependent on proprietary NiCd batteries which I didn't like.

John.

jharr · « **Reply #48 on:** March 11, 2015, 09:34:27 PM »

Well, after all of this very good discussion and advice, I decided to go with neither of the original choices. I found what I think is a very good deal on a Bronica S2a. It has 2 backs, 2 helicoids, and the 75mm and 50mm Nikon lenses all for just over $300 delivered. It sounds like the owner tried to replace the GG foam and didn't do a great job, but that is a repair that even I can manage. As I said before, heavy and loud aren't primary considerations. I love Nikon glass and I fell in love with the look of the 'chromed out' S2a. For some reason it reminds me of the small hand phaser from Star Trek (original). Giving credit where credit is due, I tried to get my lovely wife to talk me out of buying another camera, but she turned it around and convinced me to get it. I think I owe her a nice dinner out, or three.

Me Bronica S2A by Ali Lampard, on Flickr

Kai-san · « **Reply #49 on:** March 11, 2015, 10:03:59 PM »

I used to think that the Bronicas were very cool when I was a young man, but that is a long time ago. Congratulations on your aquisition and congratulations with a very special wife!