Topic: Film storage protocol

[mcduff]

I just bought some lovely fp4+ that's shelf date is stamped 2017 and 2018. Pretty far away. I don't really have fridge space but I have freezer space, and a nice cool basement. I was going to toss it into the freezer which is my default action (as there is lots of room) and then I wondered what my motivation for that is since I will undoubtedly be done it by the time it expires.

Perhaps a better strategy would be cool basement until nearing expiration and then into the freezer.

Am I right in believing that 'prematurely' tossing it freezer (assuming it is properly bagged for moisture control) does not cause any real problems?

This is a bit of a noob question but it is just something I have been doing without really thinking as I have always had lots of freezer space.

[Indofunk]

First, I have no idea what I'm talking about, so please ignore everything I say.

Second, I have a MSc in molecular biology and I've dealt with lots of reagents, solutions, and various other chemicals in my life. But only my life until about age 25.

Freezing stuff is a great way to preserve it. Molecules move slower at lower temperatures, so there's less wear and tear that goes on.

Freezing also dehydrates things, which is sometimes good, but usually bad.

Freeze-thaw cycles kill a lot of what is good in the world. Freezing and thawing denatures proteins, kills enzymes, and in general wrecks havoc on anything that is aqueous.

How does this apply to film? I have no idea. Please refer to statement #1 

[jharr]

I think the point of freezing in this case... (BTW, my BS in Biochemistry in no way qualifies me to speak on this subject, I just thought I would join Satish in this thread and maybe we can get something published in the Journal of Irreproducible Results) is done in order to slow down oxidation of silver halides and absorption of radiation (fogging). These things don't speed up after the expiration date. The expiration date is just that date after which the fogging starts to become noticeable to the film company's instrumentation. Keeping film in the freezer will extend the date at which the fog becomes noticeable (to the machine).

[Indofunk]

(the Journal of Irreproducible Results)

This thread is rapidly approaching JIR standards 

[Indofunk]

Also, for the record, I refrigerate all of my film. My JIR theory being, it slows down molecules and chemical reactions (like fogging) a bit, but it doesn't actually change the nature of the film (freeze-thaw). Or maybe gelatin has a low enough freezing point that a freezer doesn't change its state. Again, please refer to my first statement above 

[Bryan]

I'm a Geologist so I'm even less qualified to answer this than both of you.  I put all my film in the freezer right away except polaroid type film, that goes in the refridgerator.  Polaroid type films will be destroyed in the freezer.  Any moisture on film can damage it if frozen so I only put it in the freezer if it is still in the original factory packaging.  I re-spool my 8mm cine film from 100' reels onto 25' reels in a changing bag.  Since moisture from my warm arms can condensate on the cold film I never put it back in the freezer once it's re-spooled.  I only do this with one 100' reel at a time so the film will get used in a relatively short amount of time, long term preservation is not an issue at this point. 

I read recently that someone had a large amount of negatives that got wet during hurricane Sandy.  The person tried to preserve them by putting them in the freezer.  Unfortunately they were not dried before doing this and the ice crystals caused the emulsion to separate from the film making the damage far worse.

[imagesfrugales]

Additionally you can put the film into a metal box (if not already) to reduce the effect of radiation. Plumb would be the best but not very handy. Then store the box as far as possible away from the ground. Cellars are not the best place because of the radiation. A freezer on the top of a tower with the film in a plumb box would be the best :-D

Or use slow film and do nothing. Fast film is degrading fast, slow film slow. Slow old film still with cadmium can keep for decades. But of course the prohibition of the ugly poisy cadmium was a very good thing. Probably much more important than the mercury thing.

[mcduff]

Reinhold , good points regarding radiation and basements/cellars. I was thinking the opposite -- that the shielding of the earth would shield from solar radiation but I forgot about that lovely radiation that can sometimes be blasting us from below! As someone with a both an environmental and earth science background, I should have thought of that myself, so thanks for reminding me of that issue (and I will try not to keep awake at night worrying about it!). Between the solar shielding and the cooler, stabler temperature I had thought of basement storage as an ideal spot to store film.

So I think I am going to try to reclaim a bit of my upstairs fridge space for my 'near use' film and still freezer-archive my long term stuff. As I am moving to bulk film for 135 my storage needs are not as bad as they were. As some have mentioned, it is the freeze/thaw and moisture issues that I feel are the possible downsides to all the upsides that freezing gives. And if I am going to shoot it within its expiry date (which i know is just a 'guideline'), I don't thing I will bother freezing all the stuff. I do not have any lead boxes kicking around but I guess a freezers and fridges do provide a modicum of metal shielding.

I should point out that all of this is likely terribly moot as most of the time I am shooting FP4+ and I have shot quite old samples of this stuff with no real issue. This is just the OCD/hoarding aspect of my nature that my friends routinely tease me for (such as mike tintin teasing me I need a backup instax camera, haha) 

I know this is one of those sorts of discussions that would have likely errupted into flame wars on some other (nameless) sites  but I think I am getting close to my part of the Journal of Irreproducible Results article that we are putting together!!!

[hookstrapped]

I'm a grad school dropout and I keep slide film in the fridge because that's what stores do and negative film in a bag on a box in my bedroom.

[Francois]

The lead (plumb) box would definitely help in reducing the effect of cosmic radiation.
Now, if I believe everything I learned during my B.Sc., the optimal location on where to store the film is in a place where the effort needed to get it is lowest... but I should add that I got my diploma in Town Planning so that's not very good for film 

But on a more serious note, professional films are designed to be optimal at the moment they are shipped. So, keeping at a constant cool temperature is best. Film degrades in many ways. There is the background radiation which affects it and the only way to prevent this is a box with a heavy lead liner. The freezer won't protect against this. But the freezer will slow down the internal chemical reactions which slowly cause the film to degrade. Also, degradation speed is not constant. Film changes chemically faster when fresh simply because there are more molecules in it that can react with one another than when it's really old.

As for the gelatin, this fears mostly humidity and high PH which will cause it to soften. It's not as sensitive to fungus as we might think as it is laced with formaldehyde to both harden the gelatin and prevent bacterial or fungus growth.

The best thing to do is freeze the stuff and allow it to thaw about an hour before putting it in the camera. When in a hurry, I just heat the can in the palm of my hand until it's not very cold. I never had a problem with that.

On the up side, B&W film is not as affected by aging as color stock (degradation is not as visible since there's no color to judge)

The only thing is that film degrades much faster once it's exposed. The molecules have gathered the minimum amount of energy needed to transform into a different compound and become slightly unstable.

(BTW, I have a backup Instax...  )

[Adam Doe]

I'm saddened to see so much disinformation being bandied about so freely, as well intentioned as it may be. As a scientist, well at least that's what my Bachelor of SCIENCE degree says. Granted it is in mass communication, but the diploma clearly states Science with a capital S so please heed my advice. As everyone knows film was invented in China in the year 876 AD by the great Chinese philosopher Tian Sheng-Yu who, when trying to create a noodle substitute for soups during the great noodle famine of that same year stumbled upon a combination of ingredients that created a stretchy, starchy, light sensitive substance. Thinking that it tasted terrible Sheng-yu promptly burned the recipe and we all had to wait almost two thousand years for someone else to figure it all out again, sans starchiness. Now it doesn't take a degree in Science (uppercase S there again, see?) to then realize that this year, 2014 is the Chinese year of the horse. Now as anyone who has had the misfortune to anger a horse will tell you, and trust me my fellow photographers, I regretfully speak from experience, the best way to dissuade an angry stallion who is charging at you with malfeasance in it's heart and wishes for nothing less than to stomp you into a puddle of jelly is to lob a pineapple at it's head with all of your might. Best to nail the beast on the first lob because I dare say you will not get a second chance. So what, you may ask, and rightly so, does this teach us about film storage? Well, you need not be a genius to extrapolate thusly: The only proper way to store film is in the leftover tin from pineapple flavored moon cakes which you should have eaten last monday during the Chinese Harvest Moon festival.

Mooncakebox by adoephoto, on Flickr

[Jack Johnson]

Well, my B.A. in Journalism from a poorly run state university says that if you want to store unexposed film, you ask someone:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5202.shtml

 

[jharr]

...film was invented in China in the year 876 AD by the great Chinese philosopher Tian Sheng-Yu

You should write this up on Wikipedia. Brilliant!

Well, my B.A. in Journalism from a poorly run state university says that if you want to store unexposed film, you ask someone:

Just don't ask the person who is making their living selling you film! That's like asking Penzoil how often to change the oil in your car.

[Indofunk]

I'm saddened to see so much disinformation being bandied about so freely, as well intentioned as it may be. As a scientist, well at least that's what my Bachelor of SCIENCE degree says. Granted it is in mass communication, but the diploma clearly states Science with a capital S so please heed my advice. As everyone knows film was invented in China in the year 876 AD by the great Chinese philosopher Tian Sheng-Yu who, when trying to create a noodle substitute for soups during the great noodle famine of that same year stumbled upon a combination of ingredients that created a stretchy, starchy, light sensitive substance. Thinking that it tasted terrible Sheng-yu promptly burned the recipe and we all had to wait almost two thousand years for someone else to figure it all out again, sans starchiness. Now it doesn't take a degree in Science (uppercase S there again, see?) to then realize that this year, 2014 is the Chinese year of the horse. Now as anyone who has had the misfortune to anger a horse will tell you, and trust me my fellow photographers, I regretfully speak from experience, the best way to dissuade an angry stallion who is charging at you with malfeasance in it's heart and wishes for nothing less than to stomp you into a puddle of jelly is to lob a pineapple at it's head with all of your might. Best to nail the beast on the first lob because I dare say you will not get a second chance. So what, you may ask, and rightly so, does this teach us about film storage? Well, you need not be a genius to extrapolate thusly: The only proper way to store film is in the leftover tin from pineapple flavored moon cakes which you should have eaten last monday during the Chinese Harvest Moon festival.

I know I haven't been on this forum very long, but if this is not the greatest post of all time, then I'm leaving now

[Indofunk]

Well, my B.A. in Journalism from a poorly run state university says that if you want to store unexposed film, you ask someone:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5202.shtml

 

And from that link ...

Naturally occurring gamma radiation increases the D-min and toe densities and also increases grain.

In addition to all the big words in that sentence (and we all know that the more big words are in a sentence, the truer it must be), it includes a reference to D-min, which as we all know is the saddest of all keys. So in order to prevent your film from becoming sad, you must decrease the density of your toe. How does one accomplish that? Well, since freezing causes water to expand, this decreases the overall density, so to properly store film, cut off all your toes and toss them in the freezer.

[Adam Doe]

...D-min, which as we all know is the saddest of all keys.

This post goes to 11.

[limr]

I don't even come close to being qualified to speak to film storage, which in my case is generally stored in the crisper drawer or door shelf of the fridge, where it has displaced cheese and vegetables to all reaches of the remaining space. With degrees in Linguistics, Education, and a brand-spanking new Paralegal certificate, however, I AM qualified to comment on the performance of the various contributors to this thread.

Top performers:

jharr - for citation of the Journal of Irreproducible Results

Indofunk - for the first Spinal Tap reference.

Adam Doe - for Outstanding Snark in a Post, plus the use of the word "malfeasance." Additional kudos for continuing the Spinal Tap reference

Francois - for identifying the correct answer: "in a place where the effort needed to get it is lowest."

Good job everyone!

[Francois]

So in order to prevent your film from becoming sad, you must decrease the density of your toe. How does one accomplish that?

Well, you can always drop a Pentax 67 on your toe... that should reduce its density pretty well for some time.
Or you could also opt for dropping a hammer on your toe from shoulder height. It's just as efficient and much cheaper
Let me tell you, you definitely forget all the sadness you ever had right after that!

[terryj42]

/LURK MODE OFF

"Well, you can always drop a Pentax 67 on your toe... that should reduce its density pretty well for some time."

Sadly, no, it does not work that way.  Reducing the volume of a toe with full downward force exerted by a Pentax 67 would INCREASE the density of the toe, or so my BSE degree tells me (that's Bachelor's of Science in Edumacation [Texan for Education] for those not in the know).  Now, a Holga dropped on a toe might -- uh, render the toe fuzzy and reduce it's contrast?

Back to the topic, the best place to store film is IN A CAMERA, ready to go on a moment's notice.  Or so I tell my wife when I bring home yet another camera.  (So far that excuse seems to be working, but she hasn't looked in the fridge lately.)

/LURK MODE ON

[tkmedia]

all I got is a cardboard box with a sliver of mooncake left... not even a suitable tin for film...

[mcduff]

All this info has been brilliant and useful!! I just need to figure out which of my toes are most susceptible to the melancholic key of D Minor and somehow adjust their density.  I think a yogic handstand should work - reduce both blood and air pressure.

[Terry]

Or, cognizant of the name of this group, you could just get busy and shoot it all.

[Francois]

All this info has been brilliant and useful!!

We were all glad to help
You know you can always count on us for providing all the best up to date information 

Now if you ever happen to have a developer storage problem, we'll be glad to help 

[Adam Doe]

all I got is a cardboard box with a sliver of mooncake left... not even a suitable tin for film...

Save it for next year, the year of the goat. Goats will eat cardboard. Science!

[Jack Johnson]

Now if you ever happen to have a developer storage problem, we'll be glad to help 

A what what? You mean the sink?

[mcduff]

Haha. Francois, now I didn't say I had a "storage problem" (implying too much of something), so don't start getting all generous and offering to take stuff off my hands ;-p

And Terry, if I have pile if the stuff sitting around I am more likely to do the right thing and plow through it at the appropriate FW speed! It's when I don't have a goodly stockpile that I start being miserly and trying to pace mydelf. I use the same principle (in reverse) for hooch  - I try to not have a lot of it hanging around or it magically disappears at a rate that is not good for me ;-) I was once homebrewing (mainly an amazing ginger stout) and we decided that 100 littes of beer was the right amount to let it be perfectly aged. Despite how much we increased production we never could hit that mark - and we were all waking up every morning a wee bit foggy headed. I want to get to that point with my arsenal of film - well minus the "fog" haha

[mcduff]

...D-min, which as we all know is the saddest of all keys.

This post goes to 11.

The two of you, that was double-awesome BTW. Which is, I guess, 22??