Topic: Show us your.......critique

[Moiz]

I have noticed that there is often a lot of praise for images on this site but not, perhaps, as much constructive criticism. If it's ok with the mods I'd like to start a thread where people could post an image where they would be able to receive praise but also some hints and tips as to how a photo could be or could have been improved.

So, what brought this up.....well, one of the images I took on the trip to Wales was the one posted below. When I composed the picture I could see a parallel between the line of the dark seaweed on the beach and of the huge concrete blocks on which I was standing and that's what I tried to capture. Unfortunately I think my viewpoint let me down as I was unable to, it seems, to get high enough to capture that.

So would the higher viewpoint have saved the photo? Could it still be saved? I've toyed with the idea of some heavy burning, upping the contrast and really making the snaking concrete the focus of the image but even that didn't seem to fit right. Or should I let this one go and chalk it up to a missed opportunity?

Over to you all.


Wales-03 by Moiz, on Flickr

[LT]

Hi Moiz

We've absolutely no problems with you starting this thread.

It's an issue that often crops up in groups like ours. In fact I'm certain there are earlier threads along this vein.

In my experience of such things, people are generally reticent to offer critique. It may make them uncomfortable, or they might not feel confident in their own work - there could be many reasons why.

As far as critique of vision/ eye/ style - I'm not really sure how this can ever be satisfactorily achieved. Only you can know if you have achieved the intended feel to the picture, and I would argue that no one can guide or point you toward that, you just have to find your feet.

If its a technical review that you are wanting, this is entirely different, and quite possible that people will join in on that one. It is a much less personal approach, and people are always willing to share their workarounds.

For me, I don't feel I can provide any technical review without seeing a print. I certainly can't assess tonal values and local contrast on my uncalibrated screens etc.

I can say why I like  the picture, and why I do not like it, but that isn't really going to get you anywhere, unless you are only interested in making pictures that meet my own particular tastes.

For what is is worth, this is an issue in many photographic groups. My brief stint with the Arena group showed me that. Even such a group of well-experienced photographers and artists were unable to go beyond the 'nice picture' type comments.

I say you should go weigh your instincts, if you like it, what else matters?

[Ezzie]

Not to put down a good idea. I sympathise, really do.

I would love to offer critique, advice and the like. But as Leon says, it would in some way reflect on my own abilities. And to be quite honest, I'm not sure I have a level of competence and know how to be in a position to seriously critique others work. I know what I like and don't like, but that really isn't enough to offer constructive feedback.

[Pete_R]

There have been threads like this before I think. And at least one suggestion of a thread (not sure it happened) to post images to to let others do there own interpretation (post  a scan, others downoad it, manipulate and post it back). It harks back to the series in B&W magazine (that Leon took part in) where someone else prints your neg and adds their own interpretation to it. How much the originator gains from it though, I don't know. But if someone wants to post an image up for comments, I'm happy to have a go.

I don't see the line of seaweed so no idea if a different viewpoint would have helped. But as it stands, I like it, but would emphasise the concrete blocks as that's the main point of interest.

Here's my version (hope you're OK with this Moiz but, if not, I'll remove it).

[Ed Wenn]

Ah yes, this particular chestnut again 

It really is knotty one and I think that for the reasons already stated, this type of discussion has never really taken off here at FW. One of the things which keeps the place friendly (I believe) is the underlying vein of non-judgemental-alitiness* amongst the regulars. We all love something or other about the practice and appreciation of traditional photography and that's all we need to have in common to join in here. I guess we dwell on those commonalities without picking apart the differences....and while some people welcome constructive criticism of their work I think it's a tricky area to get into with people you may not know too well outside of the forum.

Leon's point about people not feeling secure enough in their own knowledge and abilities to offer critiques of other people's work is true for me. Just when I think I might finally be starting to understand the art and practice of photography I spend 20 minutes with someone like The Druid and that Mitchell fellah and get firmly put in my place. Not that I think it's necessarily important to know more than I do in order to take a better photo, but just knowing how much more photo-literate some people here are makes me unwilling to comment on - for instance - the technical aspects of another person's photo.

All of which isn't to say I'm not judgemental about other people's work...no, no, no! Truth be told, I am super judgemental. But that judgement is based on - and  usually ends with - an evaluation of the subject and the composition of a photo and very little else. As long as I can see why someone has taken a photo then that's good enough for me. When my response is, "What is that even a photo OF?"....then I know it's something I don't like. The problem is, that's not something I'd ever say out loud to another photographer because to question that would open a can of worms....and I guess that's the reason I don't get involved in critique discussions.

But by all means give it a go. We're right behind you and I hope we can get some constructive debate going.

* That is definitely an actual real word.

[Moiz]

OK, deep cleansing breath.........

Firstly, Ed, I googled "alitiness". It isn't a real word.

Secondly, I totally understand where you are all coming from with regard to not wanting to criticise. I've had those reservations myself, not wanting to criticise someones work because I have very little to show of worth compared to them or because they might take my written word the wrong way; I'm naturally a sarcastic twat and that often doesn't translate well, however many emoticons I use!

I do think constructive criticism can be valid and useful but, as Leon pointed out, there are many reasons why the internet may not be the best place for it. But I disagree to a point, Leon, that it doesn't matter whether you like the picture or not because then I'd only be making pictures for you. There are a number of photography forums on the internet but, personally, I have become active on this one on a regular basis because I like the work produced by a number of members here and, therefore, would value their experienced judgement on my photograph. Would I have done this back in January when I got back into film and was new to this forum? No, but over the last few months I have come to trust and value the opinions of a lot of you guys.

There is, also, an argument that experience shouldn't come into it, that what you can or can't produce shouldn't invalidate a criticism. Mark Kermode, the film critic, has often said on his show that he couldn't direct a movie if someone plonked X amount of money on his desk but that doesn't make his criticisms any less valid. Paul mentioned to me when we were in Wales (correct me if I get this wrong Paul) that he became better at criticising his own photographs when he started judging other peoples work for photo club competitions and had to give lucid and valid critiques of other peoples work. It made him look at photographs in a particular way.

Now don't take all this the wrong way, I'm not trying to be argumentative or belligerent, I'm more thinking out loud. I may well be wrong, it's been known to happen before.

Finally, Peter, thank you for your interpretation. It is very similar to a version I did myself and one of the reasons I posted the version I did was because I was uncomfortable with the added "drama" that version has. It was a pretty drab overcast morning and the light was pretty dull and for some reason yesterday I felt it was wrong adding that additional drama to the photo. Now that I think about it, I don't know why I did that. Paul and Steve can attest to the fact that the two other photos from the Wales trip that I have posted in the other thread were nowhere near as dramatic as what I posted yet I had no qualms about those because I felt the photos looked good that way. Maybe I should just get over myself and have another play with this one too.

P.S. I apologise for the over use of the words "criticism" and "drama" in the above but I couldn't be bothered reaching for the thesaurus.

P.P.S I have no issue with this thread getting derailed and going off on a discussion of whether cri......opinions, expositions or examinations are valid on a photo forum.

[Late Developer]

Hi Moiz.

Please don't take what I'm about to say too seriously as it's just the ramblings of someone who's been around this block a few times 

I've always viewed photography as a tenuously-balanced marriage between art and craft - usually where most photographers are better at one aspect than the other. Down the years I've joined and left a variety of camera clubs and photo websites / forums that have placed a certain amount of emphasis on constructive criticism. This has, almost invariably, manifest itself in terms of competition, points and hierarchy. One club I joined even set up a league comprising of "Beginners", "Advanced" and "Elite". I left. Quickly.

It's not that I'm unhappy offering my opinion on whether I like a photo or not. Neither would I be shy of saying why I like a shot or even how I might suggest ways of it being improved upon.  However, why the hell would the photographer who took, procesed and posted the photo care a jot for what I think?

Done well, critiquing can be of some use but it usually involves subjective commentary such as "I like because..." or "I don't like because..." and this seems to miss the point as it's not about being a popularity contest - though that's how it can end up if everyone just gives glowing praise on the obviously good shots and heaps criticism on lesser shots.

One of the main reasons I'm part of this community is precisely because we don't get embroiled in constructive criticism, workshops, competitions, points tables, nepotism and elitism (in whatever other form it may take). I just love the fact that we post whatever we want weekend threads and leave the door open for anyone to make comments, serious, constructive, tongue-in-cheek or downright surreal / cryptic.

If there's an appetite for a more constructive approach to critiquing each other's photos, I'd suggest setting up a separate "forum" akin to the Photo Essays, etc.

[Moiz]

Paul, don't worry, I'm not averse to rambling myself.

In response to your ramble: I agree with what you're saying in all but one point, that another persons opinion doesn't matter.

I'm still quite green when it comes to "proper" photography. Sure, I've been developing film for years (albeit with a large gap in the middle) but nothing I have ever taken, I would say, was any better than a snapshot. Since restarting earlier this year though I am determined to learn the craft as well as the art of photography and make the images I produce be more than a bit of blind luck and I feel that learning from the more experienced and more talented members on this forum is one of the ways I can do that.

I do agree that image threads that are there for people to post up the recent work they are proud of are not the places to criticise but I am actively looking for some help and guidance in this particular case. And in some ways I feel validated as Peter's interpretation of my photo is similar to something I tried and rejected because although my gut was telling me that it looked better that way, my brain was telling me otherwise. And it's made me feel that maybe I should be a little more instinctive when I develop my own work.

I'm still not sure. Maybe you're all right, an open forum is not that place for this. I'm just going to have to start bombarding individuals inboxes with half arsed images instead!

[Late Developer]

Hi Moiz.

I know what you're saying but the point I suppose I'm trying to make (badly) is that I don't think I'm best placed to comment on (just by way of an example) Paul Mitchell's pinhole work or Leon's 5x4 work as I wouldn't have a clue how to do what they're doing or how it could be improved. Therefore, any comment I make would be limited to whether I liked it (or not) and that would be a purely subjective opinion rather than a critique.

The other thing is that I don't like quoting compositional and other "rules" when it comes to the likes of photography. If we all followed conventional rules and acquired wisdom, our photos would all start to look very similar.....

[Paul Mitchell]

As far as critique of vision/ eye/ style - I'm not really sure how this can ever be satisfactorily achieved. Only you can know if you have achieved the intended feel to the picture, and I would argue that no one can guide or point you toward that, you just have to find your feet.

If its a technical review that you are wanting, this is entirely different, and quite possible that people will join in on that one. It is a much less personal approach, and people are always willing to share their workarounds.

Leon is absolutely right here Moiz and during the various chats we had over the weekend I was trying to steer you in that direction. There's no point in plonking the tripod in the right place for someone and saying 'take that', you would have learn't nothing. Asking advice on exposure, filters etc. is a different matter and I actively encourage it. I personally feel that, as time goes by, joining FW's was probably the best decision you've ever made as you are mixing with and absorbing the wealth of talent that abounds here.

What I did learn over the weekend is that you certainly have the right attitude towards image making and, from what I've seen so far, you are certainly on the right track!

Paul

P.S. I forgot to say... the more film you waste the better you get! 

[Francois]

I personally try and steer clear of anything related to criticism as I don't believe it can actually help past a very basic level. Once people start to know what they're doing, they become their own critique.

As outsiders, we can't know the conditions when the picture was taken. Giving opinions when we basically have no idea of what was around when the photo was taken is not realistic.

I feel we learn more by looking at others pictures and simply figuring out what we like or dislike about them and then applying this knowledge to our own stuff.

One reason I don't like critique at all is that I feel it has a lot to do with respect. This is something that is the basic core of Filmwasters. We might poke fun at each others from time to time, but it is always in good spirits. Never meant to hurt anyone. And if it happens, I believe we all have the courage to apologize and recognize our wrong doings.

Personally, when I look at the weekend thread, I find it to be a lot more than a critique thread. The like comments are never facebook like. When I say I like something, it means I really really like something. When I don't say anything, it usually means I find it a bit ordinary. I don't think we've ever had really bad pictures around here.

I've always hung around because of the lack of judgmental comments on the site....

[Moiz]

Ok, I think I'm going to have to concede this one, I'm starting to feel seriously ganged up on now!

But in all seriousness, I know what you're all saying. I'm eager to learn and absorb as much info from you guys as possible and felt that maybe this was another way of doing that. But like Paul said to me over the weekend it's about finding my own voice and expressing that. Hopefully I'll start getting there with time.

[LT]

What I did learn over the weekend is that you certainly have the right attitude towards image making and, from what I've seen so far, you are certainly on the right track!

Yes - that was my opinion after we met a few weeks ago Moiz ...

P.S. I forgot to say... the more film you waste the better you get! 

Ne'er a truer word was ere mentioned.

[LT]

Apart from this gem from François

I feel we learn more by looking at others pictures and simply figuring out what we like or dislike about them and then applying this knowledge to our own stuff..

[LT]

Whoops - don't know what happened with the date reference in that quote. I was only 2 and a half in may 74! Filmwasters time-warp alert!

[Ezzie]

Apart from this gem from François

I feel we learn more by looking at others pictures and simply figuring out what we like or dislike about them and then applying this knowledge to our own stuff..

Me too, couldn´t agree more. At least if I try to analyse my feelings, find out exactly what it is I like about them, and how to attain the same results (at least from a technical perspective).

Evidently HCB wasted a lot of film too, his first 10.000 shots were his worst  

[astrobeck]

I agree with what others have said, it's all about your vision and making it yours and fine tuning.

But I am going to jump off the train and offer a few things about what I would do if it was a print I had made.
I'd make the focus of attention on the stone blocks as they are what immediately draw you in.

The seaweed line may have been intriguing in person, and it plays a supporting role in the photo but the blocks are the stars.

Sometimes what is part of your vision in person at the scene, just won't play right in a photo.
I like the adjustments that Peter made to make the blocks even more dramatic.  Your original photo has too much similar texture and even light across it. 
I would crop out the sky just a wee bit more so the distant end of land is more prominent and your eye doesn't wander around lost in a sky that is not beckoning you to do so.

Take all of this with a big grain of salt.  It's just like entering a jurored competition...every one has their likes and dislikes.     

[Moiz]

What I did learn over the weekend is that you certainly have the right attitude towards image making and, from what I've seen so far, you are certainly on the right track!

Yes - that was my opinion after we met a few weeks ago Moiz ...

Very kind words from both of you.

I personally try and steer clear of anything related to criticism as I don't believe it can actually help past a very basic level. Once people start to know what they're doing, they become their own critique.

I think this is probably the issue, I still consider myself at a basic level. Maybe I need to accept that I'm not and start having a bit more confidence in my ability.

Evidently HCB wasted a lot of film too, his first 10.000 shots were his worst  

With 5x4 at about a £1 a sheet, I'm not sure my wife would be very happy with me if I took that attitude.

I'd make the focus of attention on the stone blocks as they are what immediately draw you in.

This was my thinking when I climbed up to take the photo. I'm going to have look back at the other version of the picture I was toying with, similar in look to what Peter did, and try and reinterpret it.

[limr]

Moiz, I sympathize with you and I really liked your idea about critiques when you initially posted it. Like you, I'm trying to learn as much as I can and crave feedback.

I also understand all the reasons why critiques might be a bit out of place here, no matter how well-intended or gently-phrased they might be. I haven't been around this forum for long, but it's quickly become one of my favorite spaces in the Internets because it's such a non-threatening, encouraging atmosphere. Just being exposed to the wealth of talent on display has already given me a lot of information with which I can look at my own work more critically. Now, I can look at older photos I took, ones that I thought were pretty good but didn't quite work, and understand better what the flaws are. Interestingly enough, I also see other photos of mine that I previously dismissed as being "meh" but now can recognize the things that I did do well but hadn't given myself credit for. Sure, part of it is that my aesthetic changed, but so have my skills.

Having said all that, I do sometimes wish we could go into specifics a bit more. Rather than someone critiquing my own photo, however, I'd love to be able to ask someone exactly how he or she took a picture to create a certain effect: why a particular subject was interesting, how the exposure was decided on or determined, what the settings were... So instead of asking "what did I do wrong?", it would be more of a "what did you do right to get that image?" That way, I have more specific techniques to try to see if I can get the same effect and thus, improve my skills.

Edited: I realized that the idea of asking people about how the images were created can lead to gear-heavy discussions, and that also seems like something folks try to steer clear of. But I was thinking less about what gear was used to take a picture, but how it was set up.

[LT]

Moiz, I sympathize with you and I really liked your idea about critiques when you initially posted it. Like you, I'm trying to learn as much as I can and crave feedback.

I also understand all the reasons why critiques might be a bit out of place here, no matter how well-intended or gently-phrased they might be. I haven't been around this forum for long, but it's quickly become one of my favorite spaces in the Internets because it's such a non-threatening, encouraging atmosphere. Just being exposed to the wealth of talent on display has already given me a lot of information with which I can look at my own work more critically. Now, I can look at older photos I took, ones that I thought were pretty good but didn't quite work, and understand better what the flaws are. Interestingly enough, I also see other photos of mine that I previously dismissed as being "meh" but now can recognize the things that I did do well but hadn't given myself credit for. Sure, part of it is that my aesthetic changed, but so have my skills.

Having said all that, I do sometimes wish we could go into specifics a bit more. Rather than someone critiquing my own photo, however, I'd love to be able to ask someone exactly how he or she took a picture to create a certain effect: why a particular subject was interesting, how the exposure was decided on or determined, what the settings were... So instead of asking "what did I do wrong?", it would be more of a "what did you do right to get that image?" That way, I have more specific techniques to try to see if I can get the same effect and thus, improve my skills.

Edited: I realized that the idea of asking people about how the images were created can lead to gear-heavy discussions, and that also seems like something folks try to steer clear of. But I was thinking less about what gear was used to take a picture, but how it was set up.

This "What did you do right' idea is superb! I'll have a think about format and put together a post soon.

The 'gear heavy' thing was only about balance, and only to appease me! Gear worship is one thing, but technical chat on the how's why's and wherefores is helpful, and unavoidable! Please, I am sorry if i 've scared anyone off talking about cameras how can we take a photo without talking about cameras?

And if anyone is interested in my old Printers art articles, you can find them here:

http://leontaylorphotography.tumblr.com/articles

[DonkeyDave]

when I critique, or advise on best practice in the day job we use these 'rules'



    Clarify any points of information/fact

    Ask the learner what s/he did well – ensure that they identify the strengths of the performance and do not stray into weaknesses.

    Discuss what went well, adding your own observations (if there is a group observing the performance, ask the group what went well; again, keep them to the strengths.

    Ask the learner to say what went less well and what they would do differently next time.

    Discuss what went less well, adding your own observations and recommendations (if there is a group observing the performance, ask the group to add their observations and recommendations.


they are pretty adaptable to most situations

However - I think photography critique is very difficult. Unless you are dealing with the most inexperienced of photographers, you have to assume they have taken the image in such a way/composition for a reason. You don't have to like it, you might not 'get it', that's your failing as much as the photographers.
I think a good skill to develop as a photographer, is to understand what you like, what you want to say, what moves you. I find photography a very personal experience, I make images for me, nobody else, if others like them it's a bonus. A few years ago, I started making images that I thought other people would like - and ended up in a creative black hole that almost broke me. Its getting back to what moves yourself, that brings out the strongest images.
Filmwasters is an incredible resource because of the variety of images in here. Also there are quite a few eclectic images that are really thought provoking, and some really great styles that are inspirational. I've been around for 6 months and it's amazing how you can see an image an instantly know who has taken it, and also see how people are developing ideas. There is a lot of creativity in here.

If you want some critique Moiz, I'd simply say you are doing it right. I can visualise in my head some of your strongest images, which should say enough to you. You've also inspired me to have a go a paper negs. But what I think isn't really worth anything, what the images mean to you is far more important. I'm a firm believer in experience over some in built magic skill. The more you do something the better you get. Waste more film.

Surely the most interesting thing is the revelation that the fresh faced druid is in fact 4 months older than me! He must have shares in Oil of Olay or something.

[Ed Wenn]

Paul LD: I have been inspired by your post to think along the lines of a pay-walled section of the Filmwasters site which we'll call "FW Elite". There will be t-shirts for subscribers as well as a secret handshake and the knowledge that if you're in FW Elite it means your photos are better purely because you paid your subs.

Moiz: We clearly need to meet up at some point. A lot of what you write strikes a chord with me (e.g. "Sarcastic twat" and the Wittertainment mention show me we have plenty of common ground). Hello to Jason Isaacs etc.

AAAAAAND for what it's worth, here's my spiel on the critique front. I'm a crap photographer, but I have finally started taking the type of photos I like and have been groping towards for the last 13 years. Many things have brought me to this place; the list is too long to even start and most of it has been absorbed to the point that they're unconscious these days, but the one thing I still do (every time I remember to) is to ask myself as I'm lining up a shot, "Now what EXACTLY are you taking a picture of?" As tempting as it is to snap away (and BOY do I love squeezing the "Go" button), the shot has to be worth taking before I'll bother. Seems sensible to the point of obviousness? Maybe, but I didn't do it for a long time and now that I have I do feel my hit rate has increased.

Right, that's me done. I have nothing else to add.

 

[Ed Wenn]

Moiz, the other thing to warn you about w/ regard to "what could I have done better in this photo?" threads is (moomin)Sean Photoshopping a dinosaur into the foreground of your image. I'm surprised he hasn't done this to your photo yet, but I kind of hope he gets round to it. It nearly always improves the photo in question. Yours could possibly use a snake....or a huge crab dragging away a small child.

Just saying...

[LT]

Ha ha @Dave.

I'm tempted to say it's in the genes, but the honest answer, as we all know, is the regular collecting of mistletoe under a waning moon using a silver curved blade, standing on the shoulders of a flaxen-haired beauty whilst she weaves the first corn harvest in a widderschynnes direction.  ..... Duh?

[DonkeyDave]

damn I was using a straight blade

#schoolboyerror

[Ed Wenn]

...standing on the shoulders of a flaxen-haired beauty whilst she weaves the first corn harvest in a widderschynnes direction.  ..... Duh?

So that's why you insisted I wore that blonde wig last year.

#allstartingtomakesensenow

[Francois]

Apart from this gem from François

I feel we learn more by looking at others pictures and simply figuring out what we like or dislike about them and then applying this knowledge to our own stuff..

Wow, I'm getting pretty good at this writing thing for a 1 year old 

Limr & Moiz: in photography, there are two things: learning the technical stuff and developing vision. For technical stuff, asking is the easy part and I think we're all equally knowledgeable about this around here. Asking about composition and tonality is equally simple. Asking is something is good or not is not something we feel we have the right to call. Thing is, we all do things differently. And our style changes over time too. Take Saint-Ansel for example; in his early prints he had low sky lines while later his images open up to show the big sky. Same thing will happen to you and me. Just look at our stuff in the weekend threads. Leon is all about subtle grays and soft gradation while I'm all about higher contrasts and more graphical looks. Is one better than the other? Not really. It all has to do with each individual tastes and style.

For pictures we're not satisfied with, we've had in the past a few threads where we'd ask if anyone could improve the image and reinterpret it. When it's presented as a game like that where anything goes, then I don't think anyone will have anything to say against it. And yes, be prepared for some oddities to creep-up in the image

[Andrea.]

Yes, well I like it. Though it's true a dino might be nice. And some colour - although not more than one colour. And blur. Blur makes all images good - dinos or not. And people have to look at it a long time to see what it is - or isn't.

Depends rather whether you make images for other people to like or, like me, you make what you like and sod the others.

Having said that, there are some others who like my snaps - not sure how I feel about that. You know, I don't want to become a member of a club that would let me in kind of scenario

[Francois]

Moiz: if you're up to it, start a new "Play with my photo" thread and you'll see what can happen 

Now, where did I put that dinosaur collection 

[johnha]

I too find critiquing other people's work difficult, not just because my own is somewhat variable in quality and often little more than average, but I don't feel at ease doing it without being there at the time and understanding the constraints of the situation. I know when I see work that really impresses me (and might comment about it) but if I think it's ordinary I'm unlikely to mention it. Often I can't think of anything that would improve it anyway, but sometimes would like to know why it was taken in preference to something else. When people ask me why I composed an image in a particular way, I rarely have an answer, did it just look 'right' in the finder? or did I miss a better one...

John.

[Moiz]

It's a funny old world, I didn't really get the answers I was looking for but got the answers I needed instead. I've learnt plenty reading this thread, it'll definitely be saved and read anytime I start feeling a little sorry for myself or start getting filled with that feeling of self doubt.

There's plenty to take away from this thread; firstly, I need to have patience. I've been taking photography seriously for 6 months....it's taken some of you guys years to get where you are, so maybe I need to chill out a little. Another thing that seems to be repeated is that I need to take pictures for myself, not for others. Maybe that's just an newbie thing, to need some validation from your peers and I don;t think I'll ever stop feeling a little overwhelmed when one of my images gets some praise but I will try and make sure the image is making me happy first......and if anyone else likes it, well, that's a by product.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I've learnt that Ed is a cross-dresser and if I do decide to meet up with him it should be in some sort of group situation.

But seriously, it does fill me with some confidence when such talented folk tell me I'm doing things right or when Dave says I have inspired him to go and try something new....well, that is a good feeling and it makes me want to go out and do some more. Which I will do soon. Watch this space. Or not. Because I'm photographing for me now, so bollocks to you lot!

[calbisu]

What an interesting thread 

My five cents is that it takes time to develop your skills, myself I have been photographing for 7 years now and I have given myself 10 years as learning time (only 3 years left!  ).

When I look at my own photographs I applied the following: If I am not convinced in what I am viewing it doesn´t matter how potentially good was the target or the situation, somehow I missed it; time to learn for what I did or I did not.

Equally when I think about dramatic editing I know there is something that doesn´t work, and my thinking of the heavy editing it´s the prove of it 

[Moiz]

This "What did you do right' idea is superb! I'll have a think about format and put together a post soon.

Had a thought about this myself as I agree it's a great idea. How about you start with one person, lets say you Leon, and you choose a photo from one persons. We spend a day/week/month doing a Q&A with that photographer about that photo. At the end of the time period that photographer gets to choose a photo by a different photographer and it continues that way.

Just a thought.

[LT]

A superb plan Moiz.  I'll start us off tomorrow.

[Ed Wenn]

Equally when I think about dramatic editing I know there is something that doesn´t work, and my thinking of the heavy editing it´s the prove of it 

Good point, Carlos. It isn't always the case, but I do know what you mean. The phrase that springs to mind is, "You can't polish a turd"....it's one I've often heard used in recording studios, but it applies equally to photography.

Moiz: Not a cross dresser. But will do anything to pretend I have hair....even wear wigs when Leon asks me to.

[Ed Wenn]

Having said that, there are some others who like my snaps - not sure how I feel about that. You know, I don't want to become a member of a club that would let me in kind of scenario

Andrea: Seeing as how I don't want to force you out of the club that you wouldn't want to join anyway, I'll make sure I keep my opinions regarding your fantastic average photography to myself in future.

 

[Late Developer]

What an interesting thread 

My five cents is that it takes time to develop your skills, myself I have been photographing for 7 years now and I have given myself 10 years as learning time (only 3 years left!  ).

When I look at my own photographs I applied the following: If I am not convinced in what I am viewing it doesn´t matter how potentially good was the target or the situation, somehow I missed it; time to learn for what I did or I did not.

Equally when I think about dramatic editing I know there is something that doesn´t work, and my thinking of the heavy editing it´s the prove of it 

Well, there's no hope for me, then 

I've been doing this since the age of 13 in 1974 and I've yet to shoot anything with which I'm completely happy and as for developing a recognisable style.....let's not go there, eh.....

[Moiz]

Moiz: Not a cross dresser. But will do anything to pretend I have hair....even wear wigs when Leon asks me to.

I feel your pain.

[DonkeyDave]

me too, I miss my hair 

[LT]

Hair? Got tons of it. The hairdresser has to thin it out it is so thick and luscious. I'll sell you some if you want?

[Moiz]

Equally when I think about dramatic editing I know there is something that doesn´t work, and my thinking of the heavy editing it´s the prove of it 

Good point, Carlos. It isn't always the case, but I do know what you mean. The phrase that springs to mind is, "You can't polish a turd"....it's one I've often heard used in recording studios, but it applies equally to photography.

Missed this earlier, was too busy reading the part directed at me (talk about self involved, eh?) but this is exactly the reason I started the thread. As it stood, the image wasn't what I wanted when I stood up there to take it, for any of a multitude of possible reasons and any decent version, such as Peter's perfectly valid one, would have been making something from it for the sake of making an image. I suppose there's an argument that it doesn't matter, perhaps it's just a happy accident, not what I wanted but a perfectly good image anyway. [/ramble]

[Alan]

Apart from this gem from François

I feel we learn more by looking at others pictures and simply figuring out what we like or dislike about them and then applying this knowledge to our own stuff..

Me too, couldn´t agree more. At least if I try to analyse my feelings, find out exactly what it is I like about them, and how to attain the same results (at least from a technical perspective).

Evidently HCB wasted a lot of film too, his first 10.000 shots were his worst

I too agree with francois here !

this is a very enlightening and interesting thread

~ sorry nothing else to offer it think it has already been said 

[moominsean]

I have mixed views on critiques. I can see how they are useful, particularly in a classroom setting. But, really, a critique is an opinion. You would hope that it is a "educated opinion", but 95% of the time, it probably isn't. Hell, I have plenty of opinions about most of the photographs I see. But I think most people like what they shoot and don't need to hear something else from me. I do value others opinions, but that doesn't mean I value their opinions...meaning I will listen but I may not agree. A simple example is this photo of mine on flickr (where I actually very rarely read negative comments)...


Niles, MI by moominsean, on Flickr

Someone felt the need to tell me that the photo is too dark. I don't see that at all. It looks perfectly exposed to me, on a rainy fall day. The colors are loverly, it's not washed out, etc. So this is better than the "I like it but it would look better if you took the photo with a Nikon D3,000,000 digital camera" that I hear sometimes. So this wasn't an offensive critique, but I still had an incredulous look on my face when I read it.

So I could say something about your photo, but really if you don't like it in the first place then what's the point? It would be more constructive if you posted your favorite photo ever and then had people rip into it. Then you would maybe see some different views on what you might think is really good but others don't, and probably get your feelings hurt in the process and be angry at the world and maybe pop some pills to calm down. As opposed to posting something you don't really like and hearing that other people like it (which is a probable response).

As I got older, my typical response to critiques in class and in the world has turned into "mmmhmm, yes, I see, okay I'll see what I can do, thank you" and then keep doing it exactly the way I want to. I know what I like and don't like in my work, and I'm constantly critiqueing my own work. I shoot TONS of film...I may have 3,000+ shots on flickr, but that is probably out of 12,000 negatives and polaroids.

Anyway, I forgot what I was saying.

[DonkeyDave]

disappointingly low dinosaur content

C-

must try harder

[Ed Wenn]

Sean, I think the Flickr commentator may have been onto something. Not only does your photo look better at the correct brightness-osity level, but the dragon guy creeping towards the door is revealed in all his glory. I could hardly see him in the original.

[DonkeyDave]

A *

that's better 

[Francois]

LOL 

Now, this is a definite truth: any picture looks better with dinosaurs, dragons, space aliens or Elvis in them 

[moominsean]

Well, there was a dinosaur there...I guess I should have taken a couple steps back. Maybe my Polaroid would have been as nice as this iPhone shot. Elvis is behind the dinosaur...he's kind of shy.

[moominsean]

And back on topic, art is pretty much subjective. I see gobs of what I consider bad photography with tons of likes and comments on flickr. It all seems to be a matter of perspective and how we view reality, I guess. Something that goes way beyond this forum discussion. I liken it to the drawing below. Someone drew this, they think it is really good and that it looks just like the person they drew. I can see it doesn't really (and it is entertaining for what it is). But what makes one person see this as exactly what is in front of them, while someone else sees a bad drawing? I've seen others posting "my favorite photo" and it is crooked, underexposed, grainy and boring. But they must process something in that photo that makes it look good to them, that this is good photography.

In a sad example, check out the comparison between the Sun Times and Chicago Tribune covers for the Stanley Cup (maybe that was posted here,  can't remember). The bad part are the comments below that say "I don't see a difference".

[moominsean]

And this is pretty much off topic, but it made me laugh.