Author Topic: Talk about inflation! (rant)  (Read 6142 times)

Francois

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Talk about inflation! (rant)
« on: May 21, 2007, 06:21:17 PM »
Yes, I will say it, I'm p***** off...
Actually, I shouldn't be some would say. But it still won't help my temper.

Yesterday, I went in town to a big camera store. I needed a spare quick-release plate for my tripod. At the same time, I thought I'd bring back a few rolls of 120 to try out a few cameras I've got laying on the shelf. I picked-up a roll of Kodak and 2 rolls of Fuji. I chose the lowest priced film I could get. Last year, I bought the same type of film for 5.94$ a roll. This year, I paid a whopping 7.94$ for the same thing! That's over 30% inflation in one year!

I asked him if he had any close to expired film in the back room that I could have for cheaper and he told me that "we don't sell them since we care that our customers get the best results from their cameras"... total bull. Hasn't he ever heard of something called a freezer?

To add to the insult, he tells me I would save money if I spent 1200$ on a digicam! Where's the savings? I still would have to shell out 1200$ which would take forever to put back in my bank account. Yet, there seems to be many people who buy into this stupidity. There was about 20 people waiting to take hold of a state of the art digi-SLR!

Now, Now... I need to come off the ceiling...

Anybody knows a company that sells cheap color film in Canada?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 06:28:25 PM by Agent Orange »
Francois

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lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2007, 07:50:35 PM »
That sounds like insane prices! I am not sure what I pay for film to be honest as I am usually buying quite a few rolls at a time along with a bunch of other junque. I pay around $15-$16 for 4 rolls of HP5 120, this I know ( I always buy 4 at a time for some reason....) and I hardly ever buy color film at full price, so to be honest I have NO idea what it costs. I dont think I have bought any for at least 3 years unless it was expired. I used to have a buddy at the camera store who sold me all of their expired stock for $1 a roll, but she has now moved to Oakland, and now its just 20-50% off depending on how expired it is. As I used to save SO much, I kind of got the hump about it and stopped buying it. So there you have it. Have you checked ebay? they useuaaly have some good buys lurking around.

Francois

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 10:43:36 PM »
I must admit I am a bit reluctant to go the e-bay route. I know so many people who got swindled that it leaves a bit of a sour note.

One of the many problems is always with shipping when in Canada.
Just to give an idea: I just bought a Holga in Vancouver and I live near Montreal. It cost me 17$ of shipping through Canada Post.
When you order something from the US with shipping by courier (UPS, FedEx, Purolator and such), you get an additional 55$ of customs brokerage automatically added to your bill without your consent. You have to pay it as soon as you get your package.
If you tell them you will do your own brokerage, you have to go through 1:30h of driving just to get to the customs office near the airport in what seems like permanent gridlock and potholes that are so deep that you can loose car parts in them (I once broke a shock absorber in half and my mechanic said he's never seen something like that in 30 years!).

And then, you also have to deal with the exchange rate and taxes. I just called my camera store and they sell a roll of Ilford Delta-400 (120) 4.99$ (20$ + 14.5% taxes for 4 rolls=22.95$... much more than what you pay for).

So, that's pretty much the situation here... and the reason why I want to try and buy in Canada... If I can fetch it myself, I save a bundle.
Francois

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lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 01:15:12 AM »
Postal rates went up here a week or so ago but $17!!!!!!!! to ship a holga across the same bleeping country?!@# WOW. Thats INSANE and the $55 customs charge, is that on everything? So if I sent you a $4 roll of film from the US, it would cost you $55 extra? Something just is not right with that for real. What if the person marks it as a "gift" on the customs form, do you still have to pay all that? WOW.... Anyways, now I see why you want to buy in Canada....

lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2007, 01:18:32 AM »
just another thought....If you can get away with not paying the brokerage fees on items marked as "gifts" then you could always ask someone to buy it for you over here, then you could paypal them the money and they could ship it to you....but I am sure you have thought of this already. In any case the actual shipping would not be that much, as film does not really weigh anything.

FrankB

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2007, 01:12:47 PM »
Hmmmm... $1200 Canadian = GBP550

That makes it a budget model, built cheaply and the model updated at least once a year so assume a 2.5 year lifespan (optimistically) before it either wears out, gets broken, becomes unusable through incompatibility with something or becomes superceded to such an extent that you have to upgrade.

7DayShop are currently doing Ilford Delta 100 135-36 for GBP2.10 a roll. I process my own for under a pound a roll in convenient ready-made liquid chems (taking Leon's home-brew approach would work out even cheaper), so let's call it GBP3 for 36 shots or 8.3p per shot.

Printing a shot up in my darkroom probably works out the same or cheaper in paper and chems as a really good printer on really good paper with really good inks, and (as with the digital workflow) I only print the ones that I choose to. I thus won't bother with the figures on the output side.

So in order for it to be "cheaper" for me I'd have to shoot 6,626 shots or 184 rolls in 2.5 years or 73 rolls a year. Then consider the cost of batteries, memory cards, software, a decent printer and other digital accessories (half as much again?).

AIN'T NO WAY!  :o  I'd love to, but I simply don't approach that kind of consumption.

For the average man-in-the-street C41 shooter it works out closer to 30 rolls a year (not counting the accessories)... But how many average man-in-the-street C41 shooters get through 30 rolls a year?!  ::)

I'm not even going to bother with the quality argument (I'm no great shakes as a shooter or printer anyway!), but add in that the traditional workflow gets me away from computers after being parked in front of them at work all week and (for me) it's a no brainer!

YMMV. (Rant-mode cancelled!)


As to a cheap source of film in Canada - Try putting a shout out on APUG. There's a lot of Canadian members who may be able to offer help.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 01:26:23 PM by FrankB »

lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2007, 09:16:30 PM »
wow Frank, them is sum numbers!!!!! :)

now for my own little rant....

As for the digi slrs- I am in kind of a craptastic situation with that right now. My regular day job stinks so I have decided to try doing this photography thing full time. I got a job (very) part time with an agency doing weddings and I am also starting as the office/photo assistant for another wedding photographer on Tuesday. I am hoping one of these gigs will eventually hook me up to making a livable wage ( so that I do not have to do the current day job at all - i sell hair products online- or more like that is what my husband does, but I unfortunately get dragged into helping all the time and it is tedious and soul sucking... I HATE IT. ) So ANYWAYS my current DSLR, which is a 6mp Pentax is not good enough for the first job ( apparently, whatever, like I dont think most people want billboards of their wedding photos, but again- whatever) so if I want to get bigger better paying gigs (i.e if I want to be "first" or only photographjer at a wedding, not 2nd or assistant) than they want me to upgrade to a 10 mp camera. The other guy I am working for shot hasselblad for years but switched over a few years ago to a 4mp at first and even blown up to at least 20 x 30 they look fine, so I am not sure what I need 10mp for...anyways, so if I am going to do this I will be hawking off a LOT of my film cameras to do so and I am not sure how I feel about this. I mean I only use about 3-5 of them ever and I really need to get rid of some serious stuff ( i am the ultimate pack rat) BUT I just wish I could say that it would be a good investment, but we all know that in 2 years you will probably be able to buy a 100mp dslr that scratches your ass for under a $1000 with a good lens and a 10mp will look like kids stuff ( still dont know what you would need 100mp for- but anyway, maybe projecting holograms into space or something)

ANYWAYS, and i still love film :)

FrankB

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 08:29:22 AM »
wow Frank, them is sum numbers!!!!! :)

Yeah, I was bored!  ;D

Plus the "spend more it's cheaper!" argument always winds me up.

After I posted the above I got thinking about the phrase "state-of-the-art" used to describe the digicam in the first post. It seems to me that what the "art" is has undergone a bit of a change.

The art was originally (going back a long way) to build the best item possible. Then this gradually transformed into building the item with the largest number of features possible. I think there's a case for saying that the "art" is now in building the thing for the smallest cost possible and with as limited a lifespan as you can get away with.

So yes, you can now buy a working camera for a vastly smaller fraction of the average weekly wage, but with a twentieth of the lifespan and none of the feel of a quality product. Compare and contrast with my Rollei 35S...

There's also none of the psychological value that an owner would have attached to a quality product - deep down (even when it's shiny and new and fresh from the box) there is the knowledge that this item will end up in a landfill in under five years.

My first SLR was a Pentax S1a that my Dad passed on to me when I started getting properly interested in photography. He bought it sometime in the very early seventies and it was secondhand then. Right now it needs a CLA but will still make top-quality photographs that will rival any of today's SLRs.

How many digicams will be passed on from father to son and still be working in thirty or forty years?

That's progress for you.  :(

Having gone through this thought-process I think I'm going to look at the words "state of the art" a bit differently from now on.


now for my own little rant....

As for the digi slrs- I am in kind of a craptastic situation with that right now. My regular day job stinks so I have decided to try doing this photography thing full time. I got a job (very) part time with an agency doing weddings and I am also starting as the office/photo assistant for another wedding photographer on Tuesday. I am hoping one of these gigs will eventually hook me up to making a livable wage ( so that I do not have to do the current day job at all - i sell hair products online- or more like that is what my husband does, but I unfortunately get dragged into helping all the time and it is tedious and soul sucking... I HATE IT. ) So ANYWAYS my current DSLR, which is a 6mp Pentax is not good enough for the first job ( apparently, whatever, like I dont think most people want billboards of their wedding photos, but again- whatever) so if I want to get bigger better paying gigs (i.e if I want to be "first" or only photographjer at a wedding, not 2nd or assistant) than they want me to upgrade to a 10 mp camera. The other guy I am working for shot hasselblad for years but switched over a few years ago to a 4mp at first and even blown up to at least 20 x 30 they look fine, so I am not sure what I need 10mp for...anyways, so if I am going to do this I will be hawking off a LOT of my film cameras to do so and I am not sure how I feel about this. I mean I only use about 3-5 of them ever and I really need to get rid of some serious stuff ( i am the ultimate pack rat) BUT I just wish I could say that it would be a good investment, but we all know that in 2 years you will probably be able to buy a 100mp dslr that scratches your ass for under a $1000 with a good lens and a 10mp will look like kids stuff ( still dont know what you would need 100mp for- but anyway, maybe projecting holograms into space or something)

ANYWAYS, and i still love film :)


A friend of mine shoots weddings (and has some of the best dozy-punter war stories I've ever heard! ;D ). He uses a Bronica SQAi with Fuji C41 and Ilford B&W for the set pieces and has a friend of his lurk unobtrusively with a Canon 10D for candids. Works okay for him and allows huge blow-ups of the set pieces if required.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 08:43:24 AM by FrankB »

lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2007, 02:45:22 PM »
I would MUCH rather buy a Bronica  SQAI, but sadly I dont think with the market here I would be able to get any gigs.

Every one perceives digital to be better and faster, or at least faster, which in our microwave, macdonalds culture, seems to be all any one cares about. And how big you have the capability to blow it up. I went to a seminar last week with a wedding photographer and it was a trip. It was for the professional photogs guild of our town and it was just SO different than what I was used to. The school that I was trained at is taught by working artists, not professionals, so the school of thought is COMPLETELY different. I did not know it could be so different. Before the seminar they had a print competition. They have these every month so that the local guild can practice for nationals and get the coveted "master of photography" certificate or initials to put after their name??? I am not down grading that, I just dont know all the details, but anyways... At this print competition, it was a blind panel and the work was not bad, just SO different from what I am used to. Like senior portraits and commercial shots that had been manipulated within an inch of their existance, etc. The ones I like the best were straight portraits and were beautifully lighted and "posed" etc, in fact they were a bit "arty" and they scored low. Then there were ones that were the cheesiest, worst lit senior portraits and they scored high. Most of the stuff they scored high was pure awful actually, which baffled me. I am not sure if you guys across the pond have senior portraits but its not old ladies :) They are taken the last year of secondary school and apparently it pretty big business here. When I was a senior, we only had to take 2, one in cap and gown and one in some fluffy glamour wrap or something ( 3/4 pose. soft light, you know the drill) but NOW they have whole bloody albums made. I mean do you really need 20 different poses and a book to pass along to grandma....
And then there was a seminar with a well known (locally at least) portrait photographer. And he was praising the ever growing merits of digital on and on and on...and it was just so different from my isolated little world of arty farty photography.

 I would LOVE to try and make money doing this on my own terms but unfortuantely I think that is a few yers away ( and the film vs digital void will deepen further in this time I suspect....). I feel the need to be able to assist someone who knows the business MUCH better than I so that I can truly learn it before going out on my own. And this means doing it THEIR way, i.e. digital :(

On another sad/happy note, I just looked up the photographer that did my brother in laws wedding in 2004. He has a shop in Grenwich market and always shot film. When he did their wedding he had a really beat up old nikon ( probably older than me) and even he is shooting digital now I see, but he at least suppliments it with his film shots, so he is doing both ( but the film bits are for no extra charge, I think he probably knows he has to digtal to compete now but wants to show people that film is just as good, I think its a tribute and a bit of a secret FU at the same time :)))) I like that).  His site is www.fergusnoone.com Anyways, I am now officialy babeling....

Karl

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 11:06:49 PM »
Anyways, I am now officialy babeling....

Laura, it's lovely to hear you babeling, and Frank and Agent Orange. I got so engrossed in this thread that I ignored the sound of my 8 month old puppy licking something in the kitchen. When I finally got around to going to see what he was up to I found him scoffing my packed lunch for tomorrow!

Anyway, I've learnt that film is very expensive in Canada and shipping costs are mad over there. I though I lives in Rip Off Britain until I read this stuff. Online retailers are in danger of ruining their unique position of being able to sell cheaper because they don't have the overheads of running a store/shop. Stupid.

And to make the point I wanted to before my cooking ended up in dog's mouth...Laura, I've seen your gallery, you are an artist, you create wonderful images, no wonder you're pissed off with the commercial stuff and digital schmidital guff. I'm afraid I don't have any answers for you but keep taking great pictures in the way you want to. Get another job to pay your way but keep your art alive, keep in touch with what you want to say and I hope that all the other stuff will fade away.

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This-is-damion

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2007, 07:35:05 AM »
I totally hear you as well!

having got married myself, and also having 5 sets of friends who got married last year, wedding photographers is a thing we had to look into time & time again.

I didnt have any issues as Ed Wenn took the helm for our wedding but lots of friends kept asking my advice, i could only say i preferred film, but if they took that route they would have to pay for it -as any wedding photogrpahe rint he UK using film seems to (maybe has to??) charge the earth -although i admit looking at the webistes, the stuff does appear better, but maybe im biased!

Anyway  -my one friend, joel - happened upon Kodaks Wedding Photogrpaher webiste, had a notice on saying that due to the rise of digital this would be the last year that they would be holding a database of film based wedding photogrpahers and also a free bonus you got to keep your negatives. (have no idea how they used to work it, but im guessing you had to buy your negatives also???)   anyway, they thought it was thier special day so they would splash out.

The day came, a rather scruffy bloke arrived armed with 2 nikon digitals..........

i know they were very diassapointed with the pictures, the quality was terrible!  there was nothing artistic about any of them, just snapshots of the day.


ho hum


FrankB

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2007, 08:53:37 AM »
At this print competition, it was a blind panel and the work was not bad, just SO different from what I am used to. Like senior portraits and commercial shots that had been manipulated within an inch of their existance, etc. The ones I like the best were straight portraits and were beautifully lighted and "posed" etc, in fact they were a bit "arty" and they scored low. Then there were ones that were the cheesiest, worst lit senior portraits and they scored high. Most of the stuff they scored high was pure awful actually, which baffled me. I am not sure if you guys across the pond have senior portraits but its not old ladies :) They are taken the last year of secondary school and apparently it pretty big business here. When I was a senior, we only had to take 2, one in cap and gown and one in some fluffy glamour wrap or something ( 3/4 pose. soft light, you know the drill) but NOW they have whole bloody albums made. I mean do you really need 20 different poses and a book to pass along to grandma....
And then there was a seminar with a well known (locally at least) portrait photographer. And he was praising the ever growing merits of digital on and on and on...and it was just so different from my isolated little world of arty farty photography.

I think part of this is the novelty value. For most people image manipulation used to be a complete mystery, something that went on  in a darkroom and took skill and effort (and not a little money!). It was also largely restricted to B&W. Virtually nobody could post-process their holiday snaps.

Now everyone can, in colour, on their home PC. (90% of them still look shit but for most people it's fun to fiddle around and it helps justify the thousands they've spent on hardware, software and consumables!)

It also lets people unleash their "creativity". Unfortunately for a lot of people this means making the image look as different from the original and generally as weird as possible. An awful lot of PS filters should be consigned to the same bonfire as the back three-quarters of the Cokin filter catalogue - different technology, same lack of taste! Just because something is possible doesn't make it a good idea...!

The line between photography and graphic art seems to have been increasingly blurred by the digital revolution. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing (but I seem to be in the minority...).

On a final note, just 'cos a wedding photographer uses film doesn't necessarily make them good.

I was at a friend's wedding a few years back. (I'd been asked to shoot it and firmly declined (you're much braver than I am Laura!)) The official photographer was using a 'blad that looked like it had fought World War III on its own and was still going strong! However...

For the main group shots he had everyone file outside -

  • To stand in one line
  • Along a kerb
  • In front of a brick wall
  • With an open fire door
  • And a security camera in a wire cage
  • And a drainpipe
  • Leaving their coats inside (in NW England, in March)
  • Looking directly into the setting sun

After that we went to the reception venue which was a lovely hotel with large beautiful grounds with trees, rustic fences, nice original stone walls, lovely reception rooms, etc. At that venue he solely did candid grab shots around the bar...

Go figure!


More strength to you, Laura! I hope whatever you decide works out well.

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2007, 01:23:47 PM »
Laura - I've seen work that you have created with a number of formats. It is stunning. I see no reason for that to change when you try something new. I've always been in the 'it is just another tool' camp.

lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 05:55:58 PM »
Back to main topic... an ebay search for buy expired film Canada, came up with a store called Brooks in Vancouver but I suppose that is pretty far away ( maybe you could call them and see if they have anything to ship via postal service....) anyhoos...lotsa ebay stores though...

I feel I have hijacked your thread :0

DaveM- Thanks so much :) I also believe they are just tools, I however hate the fact that digi cams are not made to last long. One guy told me that it's always a good idea to invest in better equipment. I dont really see it as an investment if I am gonna line a landfill with it in 5 years :)
My crown graphic is probably 50-60 years old and still works great. Now that is an investment :)

Frank- that made me laugh- the vast majority of PS filters should be set on fire ( along with the cokin filters, but who needs those anymore with those photoshop ones :)

Damion- what a scam, the guy should have at least brought one film camera, even if was a polaroid :) I think I would have refused to pay. You were lucky with your wedding photographer, I bet they turned out fabuloso with Ed at the helm

Karl - thanks so much :) I hope the puppy at least enjoyed your lunch :D

Francois

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2007, 06:27:27 PM »
Laura - It took me a long time to type this and your post slid in between... but please read on

Laura - I will now play a bit the Devil's Advocate in order to maybe help in making your decision...
Now I will emphasize something: I am a film lover at heart... but I also graduated from the Business School...

The way I see it, photography is divided into 2 categories: the artsy stuff I like and the commercial work we all see.
Wedding photography is basically commercial photography in 99% of the cases (though the late Monte Zucker did produce some very nice wedding shots). Now, if we consider wedding photography the same as commercial photography, we can say it isn't about art but about business (and money).

Business is about making the most buck from the smallest investment. This is where Digital has a big plus. If you consider that a good roll of pro film (36 exp.) costs 5.49 US$ at B+H plus processing, a roll gets close to 10$. Multiply this a few times every wedding and you start getting into fairly big bucks. The expenses keep on comming every wedding you shoot. Now if you think business wise, a Digital camera costs an arm at first. But it doesn't cost a penny once you start using it. And a wedding photographer doesn't need a top of the line SLR, just a small Nikon D40x would be plenty (2.5 frames per second). Here, the basic kit which includes a small zoom costs around 980can$. Add one or two cards and you're in business. I don't know how much a photographer charges for the shoot but I doubt it would be less than 200$. If you get your prints done at the cheapest place in town (my grocery store prints 8x10's on Fuji paper for about 2.50$), the customer won't know the difference. Now, if, lets say, you have 150$ left for your work, that means the camera gets paid within the first 10 weddings you shoot. From there on, everything is "in the pocket". I also did notice most average people don't have the slightest idea of what a good print looks like. It's a weakness a good businessman will exploit. Just to give an idea, I know a guy who had on his wall a 20x24 print made from an APS camera! And he thought it was the best print ever produced (I know it sounds scary but it's the reality of 99% of the population).

If you want, you can offer both services: Digital=cheaper. Film=expensive.
But I see no business sense in doing so. If I were a wedding photographer, I would shoot digital, period.

Weddings, at least to me, are often an agglomeration of "crappiness". How often have we seen packed in the same place and time a collection of bad suits, bad food (egg sandwich anyone?), bad singers... you obviously don't have to holdup to the high standards you always follow :) People just won't notice. I'm sure you would produce pictures that are better than 99% of those that I've seen! (even with digital!)

Now, I do agree that it is still expensive. Well, I've found 2 articles which might help make it a lot less expensive. They do go back quite a few years but might still be partly valid (I got them back at the archive so if it doesn't click in the first time, try again).

First, it is the pros and cons of turning Semi-Pro, It will help you a lot with your decision.
Second, it is an article that could be titled "how to get stuff for free"... and it is about gray market gear. Once you read this, you will see things a bit differently.

And for the picture storage issue, the June issue of Shutterbug has an excellent article on the subject.

And there's nothing saying you can't shoot film on your own time :)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 06:29:48 PM by Agent Orange »
Francois

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Karl

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2007, 10:30:49 PM »
this is all very interesting and I've learnt lots. But if you will allow me to lower the tone of the discussions I will happily email you my 'chav wedding' slide show. For those in different countries, here is the UK definition of chav:

'chav' (slang) - a young person, often without a high level of education, who follows a particular fashion; Chavs usually wear designer labels including the chav favourite 'Burberry', and if they?re girls, very short skirts, large hoop earrings and stilettos. Chavs see branded baseball caps as a status symbol and wear them at every opportunity. Normally found hanging around shopping centres.

It did the email round a couple of years ago and will bring the wedding photography discussion down to earth for you. Let me know if you want it... :D

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2007, 08:09:29 AM »
PM sent!  :)

lauraburlton

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Re: Talk about inflation! (rant)
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2007, 03:59:03 PM »
Yea, send me the link . Could be velly interesting :) Never had heard the word chav before, but after looking it up on wikipedia, I know I have seen some. In fact there might be a few in the extended family hahahahaha