Author Topic: Nikon no longer accepts submissions shot on film? (Read 7999 times)

Steven. · « **on:** October 28, 2012, 04:54:17 AM »

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/27/nikon-photo-contest-no-longer-accepts-photos-shot-using-film-cameras/

discuss.

i find it kind of ~~odd~~ bullsh*t since they STILL SELL film cameras (F6 and F100 and FM10 as of right now on BH).
and isnt photography still photography no matter what medium its shot on?

Late Developer · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2012, 07:06:17 AM »

I'm not defending Nikon's stance (in fact I think it's stupid and will attract a lot of adverse publicity they weren't banking on). However, I can only presume it's an attempt to make judging easier by having EXIF data available - rather than it being an attack on film photography. Their rules also exclude digital MF users, so my guess is that they want to show just how good the new D800e is in comparison to other DSLRs. Not subtle but understandable to some extent.

Given the sensitivities of film users, I think they've just plain underestimated the intensity of feeling about this type of disenfranchisement. The best thing they could do is change the rules and ensure a film user wins!!

Francois · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2012, 02:17:26 PM »

Quote from: Late Developer on October 28, 2012, 07:06:17 AM

Their rules also exclude digital MF users,

Just read carefully... it doesn't.

I know they do check the exif tags. And if you look at the software available on their website, they have forensic tools to identify if an image has been made using one of their top end cameras and altered. The program checks the pixel bit order in the file to identify the real McCoy.

Personally, I just don't get it. Unless they receive a ton of film submissions and want to push out new products, I just don't get it. Image making is image making. It doesn't really matter what you use as long as the image has the require punch.

I guess it's back to the old days when editors used to watch out for the V notches on 120 color slides...

John Robison · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2012, 04:31:22 PM »

What!!??

No wet plate entries or tintypes?

Seriously, who cares what they do. Maybe Mr. Kobayashi, head of Cosina/Voightlander can sponsor a world wide photo contest on film only, digital banned.

Ordinal · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2012, 06:37:16 PM »

The previous winners don't even have the camera used listed on their entries, so there wouldn't be a great publicity motive there. I've heard it suggested that they want to get EXIF data for market research purposes, but (a) they don't exclude photoshopped pics or specify that original EXIF data must be present, (b) if people are scanning negatives that _is_ valid and useful market research data, and (c) the number of film pics entered would likely be trivially low anyway.

I've come to the conclusion that it must actually be because they actively want to discourage the use and image of film, at least as a "proper" medium (i.e. at best, only for those silly lomo hipsters and other people who are just playing about). While they do have a couple of film cameras still listed as "live" products, I expect that like all large organisations there are various factions who oppose each other, and would guess that the faction who got this rule put in place would like it if they didn't support anything to do with film at all.

Steven. · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2012, 09:42:43 PM »

i had guessed that it was to promote digital sales but really now. its Nikon. they're the largest camera company in Japan (according to a magazine i read recently) and probably the most popular camera company worldwide (some may say Canon but honestly its a toss up imo). they dont need to promote digital sales. i dont buy the whole "EXIF data" reason because you can strip EXIF data from files and the use of MF lenses makes it so that data isnt fully recorded in the first place.

John- I personally care because one of the world's largest camera companies has stopped accepting submissions for photos taken on film. that sends out a very negative message imo. in my eyes it discourages the use of traditional processes and labels film as something inferior. if other competitions follow suit and ban the use of film, what will that do to its livelihood?

sapata · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2012, 10:53:18 PM »

Very uplifting news for the film companies.

gothamtomato · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2012, 10:58:26 AM »

The people who run Nikon are clueless and shortsighted idiots and that is evident in many areas of the business - this is just one.

Late Developer · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2012, 12:35:27 PM »

I've just sent Nikon UK a seriously snotty complaint about this. I've no idea whether it will make a blind bit of difference but I'll post whatever I receive from them on here.

I'll also be sending a copy to Amateur Photographer and B&W Photography (the UK one). No point sending a copy to any digital photography magazines as I doubt the readership could care less.

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2012, 05:37:26 PM »

I gather some UK college courses in photography (Newport, BA Documentary) also demand that the EXIF be readable to ensure that students haven't cropped their images.

Mindless or wot?

Late Developer · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2012, 07:06:21 PM »

Okay, here goes:

My e-mail to Nikon UK


I am absolutely disgusted that Nikon, in its infinite wisdom, has made scans of photographs taken with film cameras ineligible for the 2012 competition. Why has this decision been made?

Nikon has a fine reputation as a film camera manufacturer and, indeed, you have just about the only 35mm film camera left in production (i.e. the F6). This is also one of the finest ever made.

I have a Nikon D700 as well as an F3HP and an F5. I remain extremely loyal to film although I also shoot digital. I was an early adopter and have also owned Nikon D70, D200 and D300 cameras.

Your decision is seen by film users (of which there remain millions worldwide) as a snub and yet another attempt to disenfranchise us. This is totally unacceptable. Photography is photography - whether film or digital. How dare you insult film users in this way.

Although I do not expect that you will consider changing the rules of the 2012 competition retrospectively, I believe that you have completely misjudged the situation. I hate to say this but, if you do not change your stance for forthcoming competitions, I will sell my Nikon equipment and swap to Canon or Sony. I will also create as much adverse publicity for Nikon as I possibly can.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Paul Jenkin

Nikon's response to me

Nikon Imaging | United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland


Nikon 2012 Photographic Competition

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry that you are not satisfied with the terms and conditions of the Nikon 2012 Photographic Competition. I understand from your email that you are very frustrated and that the digital usage has caused you a great deal of inconvenience. Please accept my apologies on behalf of Nikon and myself.

I am sure that it was never Nikon's intent to insult or upset film users such as yourself. Nikon value film and digital users, especially loyal users like you. I am really sorry if you feel that the information regarding the competition entry has excluded film users; however, as I am in the customer and technical department of Nikon I do not have any specification information on the competitions regulations, terms and conditions.

I have looked into the website for the competition and they have an email address, where you can address your query and disappointment that you feel regarding the entry process for the competition. A direct Nikon staff member involved with the competition will be able to provide you with a direct answer or more information on this matter. I have provided the website address and email address below:

Nikon Photo Contest
Website: http://www.nikon-photocontest.com/en/
Email: support@entry.nikon-photocontest.com

Again, I am sorry for any disappointment that you have felt due to the competitions regulations. I hope that the Nikon Competition department might be able to assist you with this matter and hopefully include film images as entry to the competition. As I have no involvement in this department as stated, I cannot say if they can change any terms, but I do support your concerns and hope that film entries will be included.

I hope that the Nikon Competition Department provide you with further assistance; however, if you need any information regarding Nikon products then please do not hesitate to contact me.

In the meantime, have a lovely day.

Kind Regards,

Emma Foley
Nikon Europe Support
www.europe-nikon.com/support

Helpful insofar as the email address provided is concerned, however, NOTHING in this world is more certain to push my blood pressure to the limit more than "Customer Services" wishing me "have a lovely day". Emma is probably a very nice, caring person and I thank her for the quick response and information but........

I will be following this up with an email to the competition entry people and I'll let you know the outcome. If anyone else wants to send a suitably terse email to Nikon, please feel free.....

Ordinal · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2012, 09:26:12 PM »

Good job! That's quite a sympathetic response - I'd expect that there are a lot of people at Nikon who see this as a bad thing and likely to alienate people, best to get those on your side.

I will send an email to the competition people too.

Steven. · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2012, 05:22:25 AM »

Paul- nice email there! i personally know a few people that also sent in complaints so hopefully it gets through. its just ludicrous to me that they would reject what may be excellent images just because it wasnt shot on digital.

i wonder what would happen if we submitted a picture of a slide taken with a DSLR haha.

Alan · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2012, 10:24:33 AM »

erm am i the only one who thinks WE ALL should send in a complaint?
regardless of whether we use nikon cameras or not . . . lets make a stand . . . for film

$:-\$

im off to compose one now!

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2012, 11:28:34 AM »

Let's get it on, people.

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2012, 11:29:44 AM »

...and BTW, Paul, that's one heck of an email!!

calbisu · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2012, 11:36:10 AM »

Well, Emma certainly did her best. May be a bit flattering, but I can imagine what kind of reply you would have received in Spain...

C.

Late Developer · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »

I haven't finished yet, Carlos.......

Alan · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2012, 11:53:59 AM »

mine is gone >

Dear Nikon,

I am flabbergasted to learn that you are not accepting submissions to the photo contest 2012
for images created using traditional film and Nikon film cameras, cameras which you are
currently producing. . .Nikon F6 and Nikon FM10.

Is there a specific reason for excluding a complete photography sector?
Do you presume that all analogue photographers also own a digital SLR?

Nikon in my view are very much at the top echelons of the photography industry with a very
prestigious history with 95 years in the existence, 71 of those solely to analogue photography.

This would lead me to believe there are MANY Nikon film cameras still in use today.
Film both colour and black and white is still being manufactured and enjoyed by millions of
both amateur and professional photographers so I cannot understand why in 2012 Nikon have
chosen to totally ignore and treat as irrelevant and inferior the work us dedicated analogue
photographers are producing.

My views on excerpts from the competition page seem to be a contradiction . . .
there are many so I have listed 3 below.

"...as we pursue our goal of helping to strengthen the art of photography through innovation..."
surely you mean only digital photography here?
innovation, not including the work the photography film manufacturers are doing to improve
the quality and performance of their remaining and NEW products.

"...We believe in the power of the image to tell stories that can't be told any other way..."
again im sure you mean the digital image here? and that the analogue captured image
does not comply to the statement.

"...Our goal is to foster a growing, global community of photographers creating images
that stand apart through their creativity, their ability to move people and their capacity
for communication..."

Does this exclude us analogue photographers and possible digital photographers who
would like to experience the art of creating an image without the use of binary? and
that I can only be creative through the use of a digital camera.

Why 2012, why at all?

Awaiting your response,

Alan Lambe, Galway, Ireland.

Late Developer · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2012, 12:35:46 PM »

Nice one Alan.

The more I read the twaddle contained in the Nikon competition page, the more infuriated I get. I'll be sending my (second) complaint to Nikon tonight. Also, Damian Demolder (Editor of Amateur Photographer) lives in the same town as me and I see him on the train occasionally. as AP is one of the few widely available publications that even acknowledges the continued existence of film, maybe they should be prepared to take up the cudgel on our behalf, or at least post some commentary from us. The likes of Ilford and Fuji might also be a bit narked at Nikon's actions......

Alan · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2012, 01:19:35 PM »

... im gonna snoop around flickr and rattle a few cages too

Late Developer · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2012, 08:12:48 PM »

Latest email to Nikon. (I attached a copy of the emails shown earlier in this thread).

Dear Sirs.

At the foot of this email is a copy of an email I sent to your UK division yesterday regarding the pathetic and insulting approach you are taking to the huge number of photographers who use film.

As someone who uses film and digital - I currently have a Nikon D700 - (and who has used Nikon cameras since the 1970s) I'm sure I could produce an entry to the competition if I wanted. However, I also own an F3HP and an F5 - along with various other medium and large format cameras - and I much prefer using film. Why is this a problem for you??

Your competition site makes all manner of ludicrous statements and claims about innovation, the unique way in which stories can be told by using digital (really.....?) and creativity. Frankly, if they weren't so disgraceful, they would be laughable. Your promotional BS team seemingly knows no bounds. How dare you treat film users in such a poor and disrespectful way.

I hope you take heed of my comments and those you will receive from other film users and relent. If you don't, all you will do is drive us away from Nikon and into the welcoming arms of Canon, Sony, etc when we want to upgrade our Nikon kit. I, for one, will not take this insult lightly. I was considering an upgrade to a D800e in 2013 but I am now much more likely to sprout wings and fly.

Oh, and when you're doing the customer training course, please tell the tutors that wishing a VERY IRATE customer a "lovely day" doesn't help one bit. In fact, it just throws fuel on the fire. I'm sure Emma is a charming lady who means well but, as far as I'm concerned, this is a war and I will do whatever I can to embarrass you by bringing this situation to the attention of the trade press and enthusiast magazines. I'm sure Kodak, Ilford and Fuji (to name but three) are as impressed as I am with your attitude.

I post on a number of film-based internet forums and your snub and two-fingered salute to film has been received loud and clear. I have never known such a PR faux-pas since Kodak's recent debacle.

I hope to hear that the rules will be changed (if not for this year then for future years) in due course.

Opening shots fired, I'm now going to see if there's anything on the Amateur Photographer website yet.....

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2012, 08:51:53 PM »

Personally, I must admit that I don't care much. I might even buy an F5 one of these days ... But you seem to enjoy yourself Paul

Late Developer · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2012, 10:19:35 PM »

It's the principle of the thing, Urban. Initially, I thought, "sod it" it's not as if I was likely to enter or, if I did, I was never going to win. However, although Nikon is entitled to set the rules of its own competition how it sees fit, it's just another unnecessary swipe at film users from a company that couldn't have existed other than for the support of film users.

Alan · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2012, 10:39:06 PM »

paul thats some warning shot !

I agree with paul, urban - its the principal, similar to the "international film buying days"
and if im not mistaken there was a campaign to try and keep polaroid going . . . was that tip? $:-\$

anyway, i suppose we have to fight our corner, raise awareness, etc etc.

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #25 on:** October 31, 2012, 01:38:04 AM »

Maybe you're right. I guess it's just that there's so much more important going on in my life (2 year old, number two on the way, career just taking off, ...) that it's not high on my list of priorities.

Late Developer · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2012, 08:25:49 AM »

Urban, when it comes to the "real" priorities caused by the devastation that people around the world are suffering by way of war, famine, flood, religious intolerance, lack of healthcare, financial hardship through mis-management an sheer greed, this Nikon competition doesn't even get on the scale.

I feel privileged to be able to rant so freely about something so relatively frivolous.

Suzi Livingstone · « **Reply #27 on:** October 31, 2012, 02:39:24 PM »

I didn't even know Nikon had a competition but this "film exclusion" thing surprised me when I saw it doing the rounds this week. My first camera was a Nikon (F501) and even though I no longer use their gear I've always had a bit of a soft spot for them, and thought I'd probably get another one some day.. maybe not now though. Will attempt to cobble together a disgruntled letter to them this week as well, the more the merrier, solidarity and all that

John Robison · « **Reply #28 on:** October 31, 2012, 07:42:49 PM »

Stephen;

I guess I gotten beyond caring what the two monster cameras companies do. In my small town, Olympia, Washington state, USA, I see a film camera being used once or twice per year. On the other hand digital Canon and Nikon SLR's dominate, to the tune of about 99% of all SLR type cameras I see. It is as if film doesn't exist in this corner of the world. It also seems there are only TWO camera companies left. Even in digital, where are Pentax, Olympus, and.........well that about rounds out the list of what were grand old camera companies. Minolta, Konica, Topcon, and a few others have all changed focus, been bought out and liquidated etc.

All my film, paper, and chemicals are mail order. There is not a roll of 120 to be had within a 30 mile radius. I could buy a roll of 35mm color negative film locally, 200 ISO, made in Japan, available at Walgreens, at least I could last month, who knows about today.

Sorry to be such a downer. It just seems like the BIG TWO sure don't care about film photography anymore and my feeling is reciprocal. On the other hand, Mr. Kobayashi is dedicated to film cameras and I wish to give due consideration to him.

Francois · « **Reply #29 on:** October 31, 2012, 08:03:59 PM »

Quote from: John Robison on October 31, 2012, 07:42:49 PM

In my small town, Olympia, Washington state, USA, I see a film camera being used once or twice per year.

You're lucky... I'm the only one in my big suburb!

tkmedia · « **Reply #30 on:** October 31, 2012, 08:20:13 PM »

Kobayashi did not want to enter digital as it was too expensive and not profitable enough for a company like his.

John Robison · « **Reply #31 on:** October 31, 2012, 09:59:23 PM »

Francios,

Olympia is actually the capital of Washington state with a population of about 50K, neighboring towns Tumwater and Lacey add another 60~80K but film wise it's a desert. Interestingly the nearby Evergreen State College, a public liberal arts college, still has a traditional darkroom and teach photography with film and darkroom printing. At least that's what I heard from a student two years ago.

I'm retired and my better half and I live in an old apartment building a block south of the Capital building. I have too many film cameras, from 16mm submini's to 4X5 . Getting around to using them all occasionally is hard but I also hate to see them sit on the shelf. The wife, who is much younger and still works thinks I'm crazy but still humors me. She is a very understanding but still checks the Mastercard regularly. So......sometimes the conversation goes something this;

"So, I see you charged something from B&H Photo."

"Uh....yeah...I hear Fuji is going to raise their film prices so I wanted to get an order in before they do."

"What kind of film?"

"One-twenty black and white."

"Didn't you just get a bunch of film from Freestyle."

"That was a deal on 35mm, I only got a few rolls of 120 from them."

And so it goes. I still want to get a couple of boxes of 4X5 but that might have to wait a bit.

Alan · « **Reply #32 on:** October 31, 2012, 11:07:56 PM »

with all this controversy about the competition i wonder what the younger generation thinking?

its the younger generation and hipsters that i hope will develop an interest in
film and start experimenting with it more and more $:-\$

SLVR · « **Reply #33 on:** November 01, 2012, 02:13:46 AM »

Well as someone younger here are my thoughts.

Nikon is a company. Its a machine. They run on profits from selling cameras. I can see them holding a competition for digital only to help promote the use of their products. Before im corrected and burned at the stake, the profits from new 35mm camera sales are crushed by digital sales bringing in higher profits. And us filmwasters buying and selling used F3's and such arent going to benefit nikon as much as going out and buying a d300 or whatever the latest greatest is. Its just corporate bullshit right? We should be angry that a camera company still producing 35mm slrs and an OG in film photography in the beginnings should turn its back on its heritage right?

Well, maybe.

People these days want convenience. They want what's easiest. How can one learn without exif data? How can one get that perfect exposure without chimping and taking 15 exposures per one shot. Its a fact digital photography is easier to pick up and some results can be very pleasing to the eye. Results are instant and technology allows us to manipulate the images further to improve them further. Basically what im saying is there are less and less purists out there, people who see film as a viable medium to capture images with. It makes sense for consumers to take photos cost effectively and still get results. Sadly, digital is the future because its easier. Less variables to mess up. We all know this. As consumers keep buying and "upgrading" to the latest and greatest, companies like Nikon can continue to make cameras whether they are digital or 35mm.

I just see it as a marketing tool. A reason for people to buy cameras. "Of course the winning photo was shot on a d300, i must have it." It sucks that Nikon seems to be turning its back on its roots. It would be better if they had a film only contest running alongside the digital only one. Maybe even they could take the best images from both contests and have them get a voters choice in the end! The results could be interesting! But film doesnt bring in the same revenue that digtal does, and in the end investors and money trumps history. Im sure there are alot of purists at nikon who had a hard time with the rules also. But the corporate machine needs to keep turning and staying leading edge and being that leading edge in digital imaging is the future of the company.

Just my view on it. I still feel as strongly as you all towards it, i think its bullshit that they can just fluff off the last 100 years like it didnt happen. It just goes to making digital users think that film is an inferior medium. I had a digital user say my images were lower quality because they had grain. Some people just dont get it. And with companies like nikon pulling stunts like this these people will never see the light (im sure theres a pun in there somewhere).

Late Developer · « **Reply #34 on:** November 01, 2012, 09:03:32 AM »

Compared to Canon (as a whole) Nikon is a tiny company that punches way above its weight and has a reputation for listening to its customers and innovating. One of the main advantages of using Nikon (if you happen to use both film and digital, manual and autofocus) is that most of their lenses still fit and work with most of their current crop of cameras.

All businesses need to be money-making machines - or die. Digital, as a medium, is so dominant now that the volume of scanned negative entries would barely register. The chances of one winning is limited to say the least. That isn't the point. It's about being inclusive and retaining the company's dignity and integrity.

I LOVE my Nikon gear. It's the only 35mm system (and I've tried quite a few down the years) that feels "right" in my hands - both weight, size and ergonomics. I couldn't care less about brand and all that jazz. For me, it's about having the right tools for the job and I've found Nikon gets it right more often than not.

But there comes a point where a line has to be drawn. When what's left of the film market is ignored or, worse still, actively excluded from a competition run by a company that cut its teeth and made its fortune in film, that's enough for me.

Francois · « **Reply #35 on:** November 01, 2012, 02:55:04 PM »

Quote from: TinTin on November 01, 2012, 02:13:46 AM

Before im corrected and burned at the stake,

No burn from my part.

Most people tend to forget that Nikon isn't part of the film business and never was. They always have been part of the camera business and it just so happens that the only way to capture an image has been film for over 100 years.

I tend to think of digicams as "film included" cameras. But even thinking like that, Nikon doesn't even build its own sensors! They get the CCD's and most of their CMOS from Sony. So they ain't even part of the sensor business!

The Nikon contest is a corporate contest, so they pretty much set the rules as they please. My guess is that they probably had to sift through a bunch of bad scans, so they decided that going all digital would be a simple way to make sure quality would be sufficient. Lets not forget, we are a small group who do care about quality. How many average joes will take a picture of their dog using a disposable camera, get it processed and scanned at WalMart and think that it's the best thing since sliced bread? Not to put down the people at the WalMart photo lab, the ones at my local store are genuinely nice people. But, sometimes the maintenance on their equipment suffers and so does quality.

This doesn't mean that digital is superior in any way. It does have its flaws. Bad post processing can make them just as bad as anything. But for Nikon, that's where the future is. And they gear their marketing towards that... don't forget that the contest is essentially cheap marketing for them.

Ordinal · « **Reply #36 on:** November 01, 2012, 05:32:11 PM »

I wonder whether this is about MF or LF photography - where film is still Serious Business, and where maybe Nikon want to launch a camera? Just a though.

Francois · « **Reply #37 on:** November 01, 2012, 08:44:18 PM »

Quote from: Ordinal on November 01, 2012, 05:32:11 PM

I wonder whether this is about MF or LF photography - where film is still Serious Business, and where maybe Nikon want to launch a camera? Just a though.

Nikon doesn't need to go in the MF territory. Their cameras now have about the same pixel count as some MD camera backs.

As for LF, they already have a line of excellent lenses just for that... or at least I think they still do.

Ordinal · « **Reply #38 on:** November 01, 2012, 09:21:19 PM »

Pixel count doesn't cover it all though - sensor size is still a big issue. I've read several people saying they'd rather fewer pixels from an MF sensor than more from a full frame.

Eta: I mention this as somebody on another forum said that this year's competition specifically mentions digital MF and LF, not present in previous years.