Author Topic: Movie time  (Read 9124 times)

Sandeha Lynch

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Movie time
« on: November 03, 2011, 12:15:48 PM »
It's not completely insane, but you'd sure run through your film stock quickly ...

http://microsites.lomography.com/lomokino/

 ;D

Dave Dunne

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 02:10:03 PM »
Looks interesting.

Will definitely burn through a lot of film - 1 roll every 30 to 50 seconds.


Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 03:26:04 PM »
Just saw this this morning before my connection crashed.

Interesting though I don't know why they didn't go with a Double8 like format?
144 images on a roll of 36 exp seems a bit limiting to me. Though there's got to be something fun to do with it.

One thing that bugs me is that you have to scan the sequences on the scanner... what a drag to have to cut out each individual frames with photoshop only to reassemble them later in a movie editor...  :-\
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

LT

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 03:34:28 PM »
One thing that bugs me is that you have to scan the sequences on the scanner... what a drag to have to cut out each individual frames with photoshop only to reassemble them later in a movie editor...  :-\

And it is for that reason that I am out (to quote a popular UK TV program)

Don't expect to see the next movie podcast being page with one of these! ;)
L.

LT

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 03:39:32 PM »
ok - I made the above statement before actually looking at the results made by this thing .... and nothing has changed! That is seriously awful, in a not cool way. THe movies are so jerky they make me feel a bit travel sick. WHy churn out loads of expensive film for that? ho hum.  I guess I'm allowed to be bemused by the machinations of youth these days, as I am officially old now.
L.

Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 03:44:46 PM »
The ergonomics look very poor too.
If it doesn't come with even a cheap telecine machine, I'm out.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

rkbry

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 07:06:53 PM »
If it doesn't come with even a cheap telecine machine, I'm out.

Also available separately is the "Lomokinoscope" player. I don't know the cost, but it definitely looks "cheap."

-rob

Paul Mitchell

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 07:07:26 PM »
Just think of it as a way for young people to burn even more film... they then buy more... then Kodak, Fuji et al have to crank up production and hopefully it'll stop the decline! Wonder if they'll bring out a Polaroid version?...  8)

Paul
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Benjamin J

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 07:48:59 PM »
...i'm gonna go hug my bauer 709XL and cry in a corner...

on second thought, i'm gonna load a 50' cartridge go shoot at 24fps on a REAL format

LT

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 08:04:34 PM »
...i'm gonna go hug my bauer 709XL and cry in a corner...

on second thought, i'm gonna load a 50' cartridge go shoot at 24fps on a REAL format

If we were MyFaceTwitbook, I'd click the 'Like' button lots.
L.

Mike (happyforest)

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 08:49:35 PM »
I agree with Paul, if it bumps up film sales......

Mike

Sandeha Lynch

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 08:57:54 PM »
Just think of it as a way for young people to burn even more film... they then buy more... then Kodak, Fuji et al have to crank up production and hopefully it'll stop the decline! Wonder if they'll bring out a Polaroid version?...  8)

Paul

And you know what, since the design is so (relatively) simple, I just wish I'd thought of building one myself.   ;D

Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 09:21:04 PM »
This thing doesn't even seem to have a rotary shutter!
It's not like these things are hard to make...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

16mman

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2011, 05:10:25 PM »
I agree with all of you. The thing's crap.

And yet . . .

I am obsessed with small gauge cinema cameras and own a few, but I can't afford the film and processing. I'd always dreamed of figuring out a way to shoot a film on 35mm and then lomo comes along and . . .

I might just buy this little hunk of plastic, crap as it is. I have an illness :)

Nigel

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2011, 07:57:14 PM »
It probably is crap but, conversely, looks fun! I try not to knock anything until I've tried it, whatever floats your boat I say!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

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Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 08:11:51 PM »
I might just buy this little hunk of plastic, crap as it is. I have an illness :)
Well, for one it's pretty cheap compared to a cine camera.
How much does it cost to get a single roll of 16mm processed?
You're probably pretty close to the price of the LomoKine camera.
On the plus side, you don't need special equipment to process the film. You can drop it anywhere and get it done for cheap. How many places process cine film for something like 4$ ???

If you like choppy animation, I think it's a steal at 79$cdn.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

16mman

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2011, 08:59:01 PM »
Quote
How many places process cine film for something like 4$

Sadly nowhere  :'(

Back in the day I've heard you could get 8 and 16mm developed just about anywhere for a steal. Then came VHS, small gauge film got relegated to the "art" crowd and is now ridiculously priced. That being said, I do occasionally use my Super 8 Canon 310XL, and the people over at Pro8mm do a pretty nice job. It's just very pricey.

Jack Johnson

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2011, 10:49:06 PM »
On the plus side, you don't need special equipment to process the film. You can drop it anywhere and get it done for cheap. How many places process cine film for something like 4$ ???

You could also do crazy stuff. Delta 3200 and stand develop four rolls at a time in Rodinal for the two minute zombie movie.

I think more attractive is that you can stuff the crappy movie in a 35mm film canister and your great-grandchildren can still take a peek in 60 years. Try that with the VHS of your wedding.

Benjamin J

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2011, 12:24:30 AM »
if you look at the sample movies, the quality looks worse, and shorter, than a nickelodeon.

working on a steenbeck was the most rewarding experience i've ever had with moving pictures, and i was a digital post major.  i had crafted a big long reply, but then re-read it and realized i just sounded bitterly nostalgic and 40 years over my age.  suffice it to say this would be a really cool project for someone to build DIY, but.... it's...... ...irresponsible to market?


and it think film + processing would still be cheaper in super 8 for said zombie movie

16mman

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2011, 05:09:16 AM »
I majored in filmmaking at Bob Jones University's Unusual Films department. They still shoot almost everything on 16mm so I got a lot of experience with the film, I even got to use a steenbeck a few times.

Quote
and it think film + processing would still be cheaper in super 8 for said zombie movie

I'm not so sure, especially if you shot on second-hand film and used a cheap developer. I agree, the marketing is a bit irresponsible, it's basically just a faster way to push their over-priced film on their hipster clientele, but it's cool that something like this exists anyway.

If I was in charge over at Lomography, I'd have my designers make a "super lomekino," with a spring wound drive for more consistent shooting speed, and a two lens set up, so you could shoot on one side of the film while winding forward and the other while rewinding. Maybe if this one sells well we'll see something like that in the future. (I wonder if you could mod one to do this?)

Quote
if you look at the sample movies, the quality looks worse, and shorter, than a nickelodeon.

My theory is that people just aren't doing it right. If you used a tripod and cranked slowly you could get some nice time lapses, and if you scanned at high resolution and cropped the image you could get a more normal looking frame. Also, most of those videos on the lomo site have such slow frame rates that they just look too jerky. I'd try exporting the finished video at 18fps, even if it meant burning through more film.

Flippy

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2011, 06:19:40 AM »
I'm going to have to break with popular opinion and say that I think this is a seriously clever device.

As is - it's a pretty terrible movie camera - but on the other hand, as a quarter frame 35mm camera with a rapid winder, that shoots panoramas - it's pretty brilliant.   I also find the suggestion of time lapse with it to be a good one (although the limited apertures could be a problem for say, sunsets) - as well as stop motion animation.  

Also, just shooting double 8 has become pretty expensive.  You spend $15 on a roll of film, and $10-$15 on processing.  After you shoot a few minutes of footage you've effectively spent enough money to pay for one of these toys...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 06:24:58 AM by Flippy »

Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2011, 02:24:05 PM »
If I look at the camera from a design freak's standpoint, the camera would have needed 3 lenses (or 3 lens positions). A single 35mm's width divided by 3 would give about the same thing as a Super 8 frame. Film would need to be run through 3 times but that's not much a problem. Drive would need to be electric since it's much easier to control the speed of an electric motor than building a governor to control the spring tension...
The shutter would need to be of the rotary type, just like on a Bolex. A single big enough shutter could be used for all three lens positions. Opening the camera through the side would make it possible to make a much more robust camera. It also would make loading easier. Removing the pop-up visor and making it an integral part of the body would avoid risking breaking the thing. And finally, a grip like on the old Super-8 cameras would make handling the camera a joy...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Jack Johnson

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2011, 06:31:44 PM »
Flippy, brilliant idea about stop-motion, but I think if I were a youngster doing stop-motion I would do it all with a crappy digital and iMovie it all. I also think that as a quarter-frame 35 pano it's a good idea, but I suspect it's the Diana Mini lens on the thing, and the only saving grace on the resulting quality is that it's moving. Also, I had no idea film & processing for double-8 were so (relatively) cheap. I would have guessed $25/$25 a roll, which now makes me want to pick up a double-8 camera. A curse on your family: may your children be competent.

Francois/16mman, what about a single-lens setup with a flippable cartridge system? Load a cartridge, shoot one side to unspool, flip the cartridge, shoot the other side to respool? Bonus points if you can shoot slide film and reuse the cartridge system in a projector or viewer.

Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2011, 08:30:24 PM »
what about a single-lens setup with a flippable cartridge system? Load a cartridge, shoot one side to unspool, flip the cartridge, shoot the other side to respool?
You're basically describing the Double-8 cameras :)
That would make it the equivalent of 16mm film...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Flippy

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 10:51:36 PM »
Flippy, brilliant idea about stop-motion, but I think if I were a youngster doing stop-motion I would do it all with a crappy digital and iMovie it all. I also think that as a quarter-frame 35 pano it's a good idea, but I suspect it's the Diana Mini lens on the thing, and the only saving grace on the resulting quality is that it's moving. Also, I had no idea film & processing for double-8 were so (relatively) cheap. I would have guessed $25/$25 a roll, which now makes me want to pick up a double-8 camera.

The diana mini has a longer focal length (28mm vs. 25mm) - not that it matters much the lens as is isn't very good obviously.  But I'm sure for somebody inventive replacing it with something good could be a rewarding challenge.

If you go color, double 8 is close to your guess!  There's only one color stock left that I know of made by a guy who spools it himself from what I assume is Ektachrome.  It costs $20 something a roll, and processing is another $20 something.  On the upside you can scoop up wonderful top of the line double 8mm cameras on ebay all day for nothing.  Even Bolex for a small fraction of its 16mm brethren.

In b/w there are a couple of choices left - the guy mentioned above spools 200ASA, and Foma still offers 100ASA.

Francois if it produced an 8mm sized frame it wouldn't be very novel, I think the big attraction here is the ultrawide frame it makes.  It would also be unfortunate if the film had to be wound into and out of the cannister repeatedly.

Ed Wenn

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2011, 01:38:31 PM »
It probably is crap but, conversely, looks fun! I try not to knock anything until I've tried it, whatever floats your boat I say!

Tsk, tsk, Nigel. I don't come here to listen to people being reasonable and trying to see both sides of an argument; where's the fun in that?

 ;D ;)

Sandeha Lynch

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2011, 08:37:35 AM »
Lomokino in action ...

Have You Seen Bob? Uy

If you know what to look for you might spot two of my prints in the exhibition. 

Abdul Hye

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2011, 08:20:02 PM »
My review which I originally posted on the FPP flickr discussion, and added a little extra to it here, on the same topic so apologies if people have read it already. Here is the video I created which I didn't post there.

http://www.lomography.com/homes/ctrlclick00/movies/534-lomokino-movie-st-pauls

I tried the camera in their workshop. I liked the camera and the look of the results. Easy to use and it has a nice feel to it when winding it. It as potential but I don’t think it’s ready yet.

Negative aspects of the camera.

To load the film the front has to be removed by pressing two buttons, one on either side. The way I was holding it I managed to accidently open it exposing the film inside. It needs a latch or something to stop this happening. I didn’t process this film and loaded the spare roll that I brought with me.

I managed to tear the sprocket holes after loading the camera. It seems to be easy to tear the sprocket holes. The winding mechanism is very simple and the way you know the film is winding is from the tension of the film.

On the first turn, of the second roll, I managed to tear the sprocket holes. I had to open it and wind it a little further pass the broken sprocket holes. And that is also how you tell when the film has reached the end. You can feel the sprocket holes tearing and then the lack of tension. I found the gauge on the side wasn’t accurate at all and somewhat pointless.

In the workshop they mentioned trying stop motion/advancing it a few frames at a time. One full turn is two frames. The problem with that is I found that the spacing was uneven on the negative. I would image this would be a problem when trying to view this in the LomoKinoScope viewer. On the roll that I kept turning at a consistent speed the spacing was even throughout. Inconsistent spacing between the frames seems to cause problems during the scanning process.

These issues / characters of the camera I could live with but my biggest problem is with the digitising process. There seemed to be a lot of dropped frames. There are two folders full on stills that came on the CD they give you plus the movie.

I looked up the camera model in the Metadata, Fujifilm SP-3000. It seems to be a scanner that comes as part of the minilab kit. There is a video on YouTube of someone feeding negative into it and the machine automatically scanning.

(still from first folder - Actual size 1818x1228 at 72dpi )

LomoKino Review - Returned scan by Tea, two sugars, on Flickr

They take the stills from this and use their software to create the frames.

(Actual still from second folder)

LomoKino Review - Returned still frame by Tea, two sugars, on Flickr

On one strip of negative I counted 142 frames while there were only 125 frames on the folder. Somewhere 17 frames where dropped. I lined them up in Photoshop and found a section where it was practically bad.


LomoKino Review - Dropped frames. by Tea, two sugars, on Flickr

From doing this I also notice that they were cropping the frames from the negatives. Here I’ve aligned the frames to show you how much they've cropped them.


LomoKino Review - Compare frame size by Tea, two sugars, on Flickr

They seemed to be cutting corners in the digitising process. It seems they are feeding it in the machine and it is scanning it as if it was a full frame 35mm neg. on some of the stills its chopped off half the frame and there isn’t the other half on the next still.

I read an article on their site when they were looking for developers to help them create a programme to automatically separates the frames from a still. There was a beta version of the software with I tried and it didn’t work at all. I thought they might have fixed it but it doesn’t seem like it.
 
I could work with to camera. I’d learnt a lot from the using it although I’m not really happy with the results but I understand the limitations of the camera better now. But the real let down for me is the scanning and digitising process.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 11:17:39 PM by ctrlclick00 »

Abdul Hye

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2011, 08:38:24 PM »


How much does it cost to get a single roll of 16mm processed?


Prices from no-w-here.org.uk based in East London
http://www.no-w-here.org.uk/index.php?cat=4&subcat=main

--
no.w.here sells black & white 16mm film stock.

Double X 200 ASA is for sale in 100ft loads:
17 pounds to members
19 pounds to non members

--
Black and white negative development only per 100ft: £8 members / £20 non members.
--

Black and white negative development and one light telecine to Mini DV per 100ft: £33 members /  £55 non – members. (Please note you must provide an unopened Sony Mini DV tape).

Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2011, 09:04:18 PM »
I think that they crop out so much of the Kino's frames at scan time simply to compensate for the inaccuracy in the frame spacing. It's easier to do than to rig some machine vision in the software like I would have done (I know I'm a perfectionist sometimes...)
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

LT

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2011, 04:09:14 PM »
is it just me who doesn't get this?

the individual pictures it takes are poor, in a BAD sense

The movies, when pieced together look awful, not even arty or low-fi, just awful. And the jerkiness makes me feel ill. they are not movies in any sense that I understand, but single frames in a slide show that is way too fast to appreciate any of the images.

I'm not one to be all sharp and glass about photography, at all.  I like quirky cameras and weird effects, really I do.  I know I moan about the Lomo Soc and their overpriced cameras, but the LCA, Holgas, their 'new' Dianas, Horizons, new sardine tin wide cameras, sprocket rockets etc are good cameras.  there is no question about it - overpriced, yes, but good none-the-less.

But I really do not get the hype about this camera. It is not worth the film that is wasted (in a really bad way)    in it.  dreadful.

humbug.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 04:11:05 PM by leon taylor »
L.

Sandeha Lynch

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2011, 05:01:05 PM »
At a push, Leon, I bet you can do a good David Mitchell impression.

 :D  ;D  :D

sapata

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2011, 06:08:50 PM »
I think is fair to say the Lomokino is a stopmotion camera rather than a movie camera, overpriced but you could expect that from the lomosociety crowd.

http://vimeo.com/31503625

Now if you have time, you can make 38 matchbox pinhole cameras and produce something like this...

http://youtu.be/7iqFdY5vD8c
Mauricio Sapata
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LT

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2011, 07:08:46 PM »
aaarrghhh - Mauricio: Don't make me watch more of them.  I've had to dose up on Joy-Rides and anti emetics already today after watching one of these, and my head is still spinning!
L.

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2011, 07:22:46 PM »
I'm with Leon. They make me feel nauseous ???

Francois

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2011, 10:56:57 PM »
I think they should include one of these with every video made so far


Would it be too much for people to at least use a fade transition between frames?
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Jack Johnson

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2011, 05:06:41 AM »
I'm not one to be all sharp and glass about photography, at all.  I like quirky cameras and weird effects, really I do.  I know I moan about the Lomo Soc and their overpriced cameras, but the LCA, Holgas, their 'new' Dianas, Horizons, new sardine tin wide cameras, sprocket rockets etc are good cameras.  there is no question about it - overpriced, yes, but good none-the-less.

(grabbing the segue and running for the border, as usual)

I have a $2 Olympus XA-2 and its autoexposure prefers to slow down the shutter before it opens up the aperture, so it's prone to motion blur. I found out the LCA is just the opposite, so it's prone to go bokeh-crazy instead, and that sounds very attractive to me if it weren't for the price tag. :(

On the upside, I have a $1 Canon AE-1 Program, and I guess it has some magic matrix of shutter/aperture combinations that it favors. My wife just finished off the first test roll on full auto. It's loud as hell, but it has me very curious.

choppert

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 03:53:24 PM »
OT

I fancy having a go at cine movies (passing fad anyone?)

Found somewhere that sells super8 film still.

Can I process the film at home?  Does anyone know anything about film movie cameras? 

Please PM me otherwise we'll incur the ire of the FW mafia!  :D

Chops
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Re: Movie time
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2011, 04:44:48 PM »
I do have some sort of movie camera here - super9 I think but have no projector. Otherwise i'd give it whirl.

sapata

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2011, 06:53:16 PM »

I found out the LCA is just the opposite, so it's prone to go bokeh-crazy instead, and that sounds very attractive to me if it weren't for the price tag. :(


I really like the way the LC-A handle the low-light situations... when I bought mine about 10 years ago I wasn't a "camera addicted" so I didn't mind spending the money... but I reckon I wouldn't do it again nowadays but if I had to, I'd search for an original Zenith LC-A or the ones produced in the Lomo Russian factories for the lomo society(which is the one I have). The new models are made in China and I'm not sure about the lens quality...

Mauricio Sapata
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Ed Wenn

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2011, 11:42:01 PM »
Abdul/ctrlclick00: Thanks for taking the time to post your in-depth review here. I can understand how annoyed I'd be with the digitising process cropping my negs and then also dropping some frames. Not good at all. There's scope for this part of it to get better though I guess...maybe being an early adopter is counting against you in this instance.

Abdul Hye

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Re: Movie time
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2011, 05:08:33 AM »
I was excited by the camera when I learnt about it. I was interested in the digitising process as this was a stumbling block for me when I created an animation using super 8 and then 16mm film. I butchered a projector trying to build a telecine machine. So I focused on that.

They posted a video on how the scan it at home. The video ends after the person places the 35mm film holder/mask in the scanner. It doesn’t show what to do next.

LomoKino - Scanning (JP) - スキャン方法

People seem to be cropping the frames from the scan. It would be difficult to create a smooth sequence of images like this because if the frames aren’t lined up properly it would result in a jerky picture. If you placed it on a tripod and filmed people walking passed a building you would expect the building to be static. If you were a few pixels out every time you cropped a frame then the image would jump all over the place. Aligning the picture was one of the biggest problems I had when creating the telecine machine. As you can see in the video posted by Sandeha Lynch miss-aligned pictures are most evident in the top and bottom of the movie, where the framing moves. They aren’t really scanning it properly or attempting to align the frames.