Author Topic: Looking for more grain..  (Read 8965 times)

Diane Peterson

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Looking for more grain..
« on: September 02, 2011, 10:08:28 PM »
so I suppose some people would think this is weird but for a series I want to work on I want there to be more grain..how do I achieve this??..sorry if this is a foolish question but you have to start somewhere

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 10:11:28 PM »
Will it be color or B&W ?
Francois

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moominsean

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 10:14:25 PM »
diafine if it's black and white...
"A world without Polaroid is a terrible place."
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Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 10:17:23 PM »
Come on Sean... you have to do better than that ;)
Francois

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zzpza

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 10:19:56 PM »
Use the highest speed film you can find. If it's B&W and you are processing it yourself, process at a higher temperature than normal (you'll have to adjust down your dev time for this).

Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 10:41:59 PM »
Black and white ....and any information is welcome..I have not gotten creative with my developing...just do like the instructions say..so I am very open for suggestions!!

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 10:43:46 PM »
OK, I'll give you a running start when it comes to how twisted this grain thing can get  :P

Simplest thing is to shoot everything on wide angle and enlarge to super size. Crop out all unnecessary stuff.

This works on both color and B&W... and can be combined with other tricks to get the grain monster really out!

Anyone else got better?  ;D
Francois

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Alan

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 10:48:39 PM »
What about AgITaTiNg the hell out of the tank while developing !

Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 10:51:24 PM »
so ..higher speed film and the agitation thing might be a start??

zzpza

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 10:59:33 PM »
What about AgITaTiNg the hell out of the tank while developing !

I thought that increased contrast, not grain?

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 11:02:32 PM »
Well, that would help beef up contrast :)

Another way is to use Tri-X and do some extreme things to it. Grain will increase with underexposure combined with overdevelopment. There's push processing... and there's grain boosting.

So, here's a trick for using Tri-X with some HC-110 used at dilution WTF :)
Note, this is not recommended by Kodak in any way!

First, take the roll of Tri-X and expose it at either EI 3200 or EI 6400. That's a 3 to 4 stop push.
Then, take some HC-110 and dilute it 1+12 directly from concentrate. Process for 10 to 12 minutes at 90°F/32.2°C

The negative will be very weak and exhibit very high contrast. Chemical fog should pretty much jump out at you!

Just have to print it on grade 5 paper for some pretty strong grain!

The process was suggested in a news photographer's book so it should be pretty good.

And there are plenty of other tricks :)
Francois

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Alan

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 11:05:26 PM »
What about AgITaTiNg the hell out of the tank while developing !

I thought that increased contrast, not grain?

i thought both  ::)

zzpza

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 11:07:30 PM »
Expired film is another way. This is expired Orwo NP27 (exp 1992!) that I got off eBay for £15 for 10 rolls. I shot this last w/end and developed it as usual in Rodinal (normal concentration, temp and agitation).


Depending on the age of the film, I would recommend rating the film at slower than box speed.

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 11:12:12 PM »
Depending on the age of the film, I would recommend rating the film at slower than box speed.
Expired film tends to loose sensitivity with age. All underexposed film will show big grain. But the effect is more present with the higher ISO.

Just to give you an idea, your Orwo film was probably a DIN 27... or 400 ISO when it came out of the factory.
But after all these years, it would have needed to be exposed at probably EI 100
Francois

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sapata

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 12:49:00 AM »
What about AgITaTiNg the hell out of the tank while developing !

I thought that increased contrast, not grain?

apparently increase the grain when using Rodinal
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fwank

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2011, 02:21:46 AM »
are you willing to try different materials and chemistry or are you working with what you have?

calbisu

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2011, 02:48:51 AM »
I will throw some ignorance: I would use high speed film and shoot underexposed. In my case that tends to produce very grainy pictures when adjusting levels later on.  ::) Well, that´s as far as my grainy knowledge goes.  :'(

Dave Elden

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2011, 03:38:11 AM »
There is grain and then there is nice grain...
Nice grain is usually = to sharp grain.
Over exposing or over developing any film will increase the size of the grain but it won't necessarily remain sharp.
One common approach that will give obvious, sharp grain in 35 or 120 enlargements is to use Ilford delta 3200 at an EI 0f maybe 800 or 1600 and develop using Rodinal.  Generally will need to develop longer than any advertised time to get a reasonable contrast unless shooting a very high contrast scene (D3200 is a very low contrast material).  Can dev in D76 and get pretty good results too but Rodinal is an acutance developer and the grains will have sharper edges.
Unless you are very lucky you should plan on a few practice rolls to detremine an EI and dev time that gives you the results you want.  Expect to print using a harder grade than you would with a slower film as well - this will boost the grain appearance and compensate for the inherent low contrats of the film.
Again, IME photographers do not usually get the resulst they expect/want with the first roll of D3200 - I certainly didn't so try and experiment.  I expect you could get similar results using TMZ if you prefer Kodak filsm but my experience is pretty well all with D3200.
D3200 example here, note: some mild unclothedness just so you know:
http://www.pbase.com/mononation/image/65663434/medium

PS definitely not weird to want grain!

PPS re developing I'd suggest not messing with temperature or agitation, too hard to control, do all you adjustments with time only, keep the other things constant.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 03:46:42 AM by Dave Elden »

hookstrapped

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2011, 03:43:18 AM »
These are probably the two grainiest pics I have.  Neopan 1600 pushed 1 stop, Tmax developer.  But it's strange because I didn't always get a lot of big grain with that film and developer combination.  Sometimes I'd get surprisingly fine grain.  I still don't know why.  My only suspicion is both of these were fairly long exposures, probably 1/15 sec whereas the finer grain shots were shorter (I think).  Not sure why that would make a difference but it's the only think I can think of.








I know the Neopan 1600 bit isn't real helpful, but the fast film pushed part still holds.  And Tmax developer maybe.  And long exposures (??) maybe.

fwank

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2011, 03:46:05 AM »
What about AgITaTiNg the hell out of the tank while developing !

I thought that increased contrast, not grain?

i thought both  ::)

increasing agitation will increase contrast, which will darken the visible grain thus increasing the perceived amount of grain.  so yes, both.

no one mentioned increasing temperature which also increases contrast and perceived grain.

in past experience (rightly or wrongly), i believe leaving undeveloped film in a hot environment, such as a car in summer, tends to increase grain for me.

increasing enlargement size, decreasing format size, using a higher iso film type, push processing or using a different developer are probably the easiest ways to increase your grain. 

a 35mm frame will appear grainier than a medium or large format image of the same size.
Francois is right by saying croping in to a frame it increase grain, but be careful if you go too small you'll get lousy detail and resolution.
i think delta 3200 or tmz 3200 are very grainy in 35mm.  people argue that the t-grain films are perceptively grainier than conventional films.  (ie 400 tmx vs 400 tx)  i think its something about larger flat t-grains actually add to the grain because you are more likely to see the grains due to size.  i've heard arguement the other way as well.  personally i don't shoot t-grain films often because i like more forgiving exposure latitudes.

i find 35mm hp5+ pushed to 1600 or 3200 much grainier than tri-x in the same situations.  push processing will increase your contrast which as i said earlier will increase your perception of grain.

darkroom cookbook says "high acutance" developers tend to increase grain (ie rodinal).  hc110 is supposed to give more grain than d76.  the instruction sheet for ethol lpd says you can use it at iso 2000 with hp5 for increased grain.  unfortunately my developer experience is mostly limited to book knowledge.  i've used rodinal and d76, but i can't really say i've looked for a difference.

hope this helps.

calbisu

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2011, 04:00:13 AM »
Ok, here comes one more igno-technique. You shoot normally, you develop normally, BUT you do not wash propperly the film, so the fixer will mostly remain at the negatives, thus negatives will have that purple look (quite opaque). So when you scan you will have to adjust levels as there is little info to be shown, resulting on very grainy pictures. Two examples, I think that´s the reason they were so grainy, they were shot with Tmax400 or may be Tmax100

rolo

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2011, 04:09:54 AM »
I recall a push-processing formula using HC-110 Replenisher. Tri-X at something like EI 3200 or 6400. Big grain, super contrasty (soot and chalk).

That formula must be somewhere out in The Googles.

I like the suggestion of cropping and enlargement. Guaranteed to boost grain. Look at William Klein's New York photos for inspiration. . . .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fwank

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2011, 05:03:11 AM »
forgot to mention you could also try IR film.  instant grain.

LT

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2011, 10:04:36 AM »
Again, IME photographers do not usually get the resulst they expect/want with the first roll of D3200 - I certainly didn't so try and experiment.

Absolutely Dave - it needs a bit of taming, but once it happens - it can render some wonderful tight sharp grain

D3200 example here, note: some mild unclothedness just so you know:
http://www.pbase.com/mononation/image/65663434/medium

Diana - Dave's the man!  Results like this speak for themselves.  titillation aside, this is about as good as it gets grainwise. I'd go out, get some 35mm delta 3200, print out Dave's tips above and follow them to the letter.

L.

Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2011, 03:24:55 PM »
WOW..you all are above and beyond with your help and suggestions..I am printing all this out as we speak and will go forward with my plans..Thank you again..I appreciate it so much..you know of ocurse I would be lost without all of you..:<)
As a side note..don't know what the weather is where you all are but here on the prairie in northern central Idaho USA..it is freezing a** cold.. in the low 30's and its only the 3rd of September..and here I am at work wearing shorts.......YIKES!!

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2011, 03:29:48 PM »
I must admit, the lady in the bathroom picture does show some nice grain.

There's actually so many ways to get oversized grain that you can get lost in it!

.it is freezing a** cold.. in the low 30's and its only the 3rd of September..and here I am at work wearing shorts.......YIKES!!
That must get the hair up on your back!

« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 06:59:10 PM by Francois »
Francois

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Phil Bebbington

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2011, 11:53:12 PM »
Quote
That must get the hair up on your back!

François, you are on thin ice there  :-X  ;)

sapata

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2011, 12:07:38 AM »
Ok, here comes one more igno-technique. You shoot normally, you develop normally, BUT you do not wash propperly the film, so the fixer will mostly remain at the negatives, thus negatives will have that purple look (quite opaque). So when you scan you will have to adjust levels as there is little info to be shown, resulting on very grainy pictures. Two examples, I think that´s the reason they were so grainy, they were shot with Tmax400 or may be Tmax100

That's indeed a nice technique Calbisu that I'll try one day!
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jojonas~

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2011, 12:12:07 AM »
expired t-max and straight caffenol-c. super grain!  :o 8)

though negs will be really dark, almost so you can't see through(!) and hard to scan, but I like the prints I've gotten so far :)

/jonas

Terry

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2011, 02:04:18 AM »

Diane,

Are you planning to use 35?  I shot some Arista 400 EDU and stand developed it in Rodinal.  I got golfball grain and have hardly touched it since.  You can have what's left--maybe 75 feet.

Terry

LT

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2011, 10:53:47 AM »
though negs will be really dark, almost so you can't see through(!) and hard to scan, but I like the prints I've gotten so far :)

I haven't used Cafenol, so I can't say for sure, but I suspect what you are seeing here isn't film grain per se, but the effect of scanning low contrast bullet-proof dense film.  the scanner driver does it's best to eek some contrast out of the situation, causing the tonal range to effectively break up into grains or artefacts.
L.

Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2011, 03:24:49 PM »
Terry, that would be incredible generous of you.....Let me know about shipping and I will paypal it to you..
thank you so much!!

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2011, 05:45:06 PM »
Another well known solution, also used by newspaper photographers, is to Expose Tri-X at EI 3200 and process it in Dektol paper developer. Process at 70°F for 6 minutes (or double the time recommended for FB paper) and print on grade 5 paper.
Francois

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Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2011, 06:38:12 PM »
thank you so much!! I am printing out all this information!!

Photo_Utopia

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2011, 06:43:24 PM »
Lots of good suggestions, and there will be as many methods as there are photographers. My own personal preference is for long tonal scales even in low light, so I tend to avoid the pushing, over agitation methods unless I want contrast and grit-a la Bill Brandt.

I tend to use fast films my current favourite is Ilford Delta in 120 format which rated at EI 1600-3200 gives nice results my favourite was the now discontinued Kodak recording film which was ISO 1000
Link
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51840227@N02/4772570382#.jpg

I also like a mild push of HP5 in Rodinal, can be very beautiful, even in small formats. Also the final medium, print size and viewing distance can all make a huge difference. I often have several versions of images depending if they are printed or viewed by electronic medium.
Mark
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 06:56:05 PM by Photo_Utopia »
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astrobeck

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2011, 09:14:13 PM »
Ah, Bill Brandt, one  of my all time favorite photographers.  I went to a show of his work two years ago and was totally smitten with it.
Most of the shots I saw were done on Tri-x....

When I want grain I just shoot very old film, but it's not that reliable.

Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2011, 09:27:34 PM »
Astrobeck...nice stuff...

Jack Johnson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2011, 04:58:33 AM »
I must admit, the lady in the bathroom picture does show some nice grain.

I must admit, that is a grain-enhancing technique worth replicating.

jojonas~

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2011, 12:14:44 PM »
though negs will be really dark, almost so you can't see through(!) and hard to scan, but I like the prints I've gotten so far :)

I haven't used Cafenol, so I can't say for sure, but I suspect what you are seeing here isn't film grain per se, but the effect of scanning low contrast bullet-proof dense film.  the scanner driver does it's best to eek some contrast out of the situation, causing the tonal range to effectively break up into grains or artefacts.
yeah, that might be it. the histogram was pretty evident of that. I'll see if I can take another look on the prints I made. I think the grain was pretty apparent there too -though it could be that they were just turning out really contrasty.
/jonas

Francois

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2011, 04:26:14 PM »
Quote
That must get the hair up on your back!

François, you are on thin ice there  :-X  ;)
Well, you know me, Danger is my middle name ;)
Francois

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Ken B: eyes, I just do eyes.

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2011, 12:31:48 PM »
there is the grain filter in photoshop ..........................
Age can weary me when it can keep the hell up

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Ed Wenn

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2011, 12:58:14 PM »
there is the grain filter in photoshop ..........................

Ken, you're banned !!
 :D ;D ;)

Diane: There's a very simple way to do this which involves very little expertise over and above basic film processing. People have alluded to it here already, but I've found it works really well. Use Tri-X and process in Rodinal at 1:25 or whatever the full strength ratio is. Usually you're counselled not to combine these two at that ratio because the film and the developer are both known to produce grainy negs, but if you're looking for decent grain, then I'd recommend this combo.

Of course if you were to combine this suggestion with some of the others (pushing the film, enlarging and cropping) or maybe even make the developer ratio higher you might get some super phat grain....but I'd definitely recommend this as a starting point because it's easy to try and also to reproduce time and time again.

Here's an example:

Tim and Emily by Ed Wenn, on Flickr

Ken B: eyes, I just do eyes.

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2011, 01:30:14 PM »
there is the grain filter in photoshop ..........................

Ken, you're banned !!
 :D ;D ;)



What?! again, oh well mustn't grumble
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charles binns

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2011, 07:05:45 PM »
Ilford Delta 3200 processed in Ilfotec DDX dilution 1+4 for 17 minutes at 24C - equivalent to ASA 25,000

More grain than a Norfolk wheat field.

Ken B: eyes, I just do eyes.

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2011, 07:11:16 PM »
More grain than a Norfolk wheat field.

 ;D ;D ;D

Love it Binnsy

Okay so Binnsy is what I used to get called at school and in the RAAF

I just assume all Binns's got the same

cheers
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Diane Peterson

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2011, 07:37:48 PM »
Ed.  this looks like just the ticket.....thank you for taking the time to tell me how to do it!! :)

charles binns

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2011, 07:40:48 PM »
I  got called dusty quite alot at school (as well as b****, w***** f*****).  

Nowadays I am called Binnsy by work colleagues.




Ken B: eyes, I just do eyes.

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Re: Looking for more grain..
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2011, 07:55:12 PM »

Nowadays I am called Binnsy by work colleagues.



Thus nature is in balance
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