Topic: Darkroom Skills - Advice Needed

[Karl]

If any of you out there are darkroom users perhaps you could help me out here. In general, when I scan negatives and do some basic photoshop or lightroom adjustments the results looks pretty good - contrasty, detailed, good dynamic range, etc.

When I print the same neg in the community darkroom they are very, I don't know, bluuurgh. Lifeless, hard to get a full dynamic range, weak blacks, etc, etc. I've been darkrooming on and off for a few years now and while I haven't done that many 'miles' I think I should be better at it than I am. I've read books on the subject but every time I go and collect the prints I am disappointed.

I've just returned having experienced this again - nice foma fibre paper, split grade printing, the works. Still look drab.

Wil someone be my darkroom agony aunt? Likely key reasons? Am I expecting too much?

TQ 

[Thom Stone]

hey karl, sounds like you have way more darkroom "miles" than me and I often feel the same. Do you ever use contrast filters? Ive played around with Ilford Multigrade contrast filters on ilford papers and have had some pretty good results. again its pretty hit and miss for me.

[LT]

Aunty Leon here:

a few questions:

1. Are you allowing for dry down in your final prints?

2. Are the contrast filters old? Or alternatively, are the mulitgrade heads old? Have they been services recently?

3. What temps/ times are you developing at?

4. Are the chemicals fresh?

5. What light are you viewing the work prints under?

6. Have you tested for safelight fog?

there are a gazillion reasons for flat/ disappointing prints I'm afraid to say.

[Karl]

Aunty Leon here:

a few questions:

1. Are you allowing for dry down in your final prints? More so recently. I'll see what today's efforts looks like tomorrow but my initial feeling was that they looked flat.

2. Are the contrast filters old? Or alternatively, are the mulitgrade heads old? Have they been services recently? Community darkroom - LPL 6700 enlarger I think, might be 7700 - diffuse, colour mixing - I have a feeling that this may be a contributing factor

3. What temps/ times are you developing at? - guilty on this one aunty - I don't know. Just straight out of the bottles. I mix fresh multigrade developer 1:9; stop and fix are pre-made. How much does this effect cotnrast etc?.

4. Are the chemicals fresh? Developer is, stop and fixer possibly less so.

5. What light are you viewing the work prints under? The darkroom has a lounge with mix of daylight and white light. It seems well set up for print viewing.

6. Have you tested for safelight fog?
No. How do I do that? there are a number of large red safety tube lamps running parallel to the fluorescent tube white light

there are a gazillion reasons for flat/ disappointing prints I'm afraid to say.
it would seem I have a number of things to look into!

[Karl]

Just to add one further thing to the mix...the water that I wash the prints is of the chilled scottish variety. Does this make a difference with prints?

[LT]

Ok - first thing I;d do if I were you is to buy a set of "below the lens" ilford multigrade filters.  they come with a holder etc that fits between the lens and lens board.  You will be able to take them with you each time you go.  this will rule out any contrast problems with the colour heads. you can get these here: http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=1089

Secondly, I'd start monitoring temperature of developer - the stop and fix are less critical, but you want your dev temp to be between 18 and 24 degrees, and as constant as you can. this is likely to be less of an issue in the summer though, provided the water wasn't too cold that you mixed it with. Washing temp should not affect your print contrast, but will affect your wash times.

Thirdly - do this safelight test to make sure you are not losing highlight brightness to safelight fog: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/k4/k4TestSafelite.shtml

Fourthly - never make a full assessment until you have a dry print in your hand.

hope that helps.

[Francois]

Prints tend to look lighter when dry. This is especially true of matte finishes.
Also, do allow the prints to fully develop.Some people pull them out when they feel the print is dark enough... it's a wrong thing to do. My last print (the graffiti one) looked like a big black square under the dim safelight but looks just fine under a normal lamp.

[LT]

Prints tend to look lighter when dry. This is especially true of matte finishes.

Not really francois - the dry down effect makes prints look substantially darker and muddier especially in the highlights and mid tones. Prints, particularly baryta prints, look darker when dry.

[Francois]

Yeah... you're right... still waiting for supper and my brain's in my stomach...

[Karl]

Thanks Leon. A few things to think over and try out. Communal darkrooms are a bit of risk for such a sensitive process. There are some individual rooms which may be worth the extra few quid - along with my own chemicals etc.

I've just go home and opened Steve McLeod's book with the highlighted text 'People are often unhappy with the quality of the prints that they produce, and this can be down to the type of enlarger and quality of the lens that they use". One thing that struck me was that I am making some quite large exposure additions for burning in at say Grade 5 and it's making very little exponential difference. Duff paper or duff enlarger head.

Francois - I do tend to undercook things in the tray and end up light prints. However, even with changing that the prints are still dull, just darker and dull.

[Karl]

this is likely to be less of an issue in the summer though

Summer is a debatable term here. I had a funny conversation with a overseas tourist recently who made the suggestion "why don't you hold the festivals in summer" 

[johann]

I have kind of a similar feeling with my prints especially RC (but it's also due to paper type), less with fiber.
First it was that I was using the community's film developer mixture as a paper developer (better now with the proper fluid). And also, I always forget dry down factor. The prints seem fine, when wet in the darkroom. But at home in daylight they look always too dark.

[Dave Elden]

Karl, you are halfway there in that you are looking at the prints you make and seeing ways in which you want to improve them.
The other half is learning how to improve them, print by print based on what the particular image requires - in your view.
I'd recommend your best bet is to find a workshop you can do with an instructor.  Go along with the prints you are making and examples of the type of result you really want (from books, magazine etc.) and explain what you want to get out of the course.  Try and get some feedback on the instructor before you commit, make sure the workshop is at the right level and the style and format suit you.
Full disclosure, I teach darkroom courses, but I have seen many students start off with muddy grey prints and end up after a bit of exploration of contrast and exposure time with radically stronger work.
It is possible there is a fundamental technical limitation in the facilities (cold paper developer, expired or off ratio chemicals, leaky safelights etc etc.) but a quick check on that would to see if anyone else if producing prints with the character you are looking for.  Leon's checklist of common problems accords with my experience of likely communal darkroom issues if no-one else at the DR is doing any better.
I'd be surprised if you were really limited by "the type of enlarger and quality of the lens that they use", assuming the lens is topped down at least two stops and the stage is at least close to parallel to the easel.
The print viewing lighting has been mentioned - that, IME, is an often underestimated factor so make sure the light you view the prints under at the darkroom is representative of the ultimate viewing conditions.  If it is too bright you will end printing too dark for the end viewing conditions.
Hope that helps, keep us posted!

[Francois]

If the "cubicles" are small enough and painted white, it could be a stray light problem. I always pin black bristol board behind my enlargers just in case.

Also, the times I spent in a community darkroom, we were told by the instructor to warn other users when we pulled out the negative carrier to shine light on the carrier and negative to check for dust and alignment.

[Karl]

I got my dried prints today and, as I expected, they are quite depressing. I've got lots to think about with operating in the communal space - I am wondering whether I was getting light leaks from the enlarger when I changed between grades for split grade printing. Even so, older prints suggest other issues.

I feel a push for the makeshift home darkroom coming on. Thanks for all your help, I'll keep you posted. I was going to scan the prints in and do a side by side comparison with the scanned image, but I think you all know what I'm talking about so there's no point.

Onwards!

[Dave Elden]

...I am wondering whether I was getting light leaks from the enlarger when I changed between grades for split grade printing.

You would only get light leaks if you left the lamp on when you opened the filter drawer, unwise in any darkroom especially a communal one beacuse you will spill non-safe light all over the room.

I was going to scan the prints in and do a side by side comparison with the scanned image, but I think you all know what I'm talking about so there's no point.

Actually straight unprocessed scans would be helpful to try and offer any more suggestions - assuming you want any more

[Francois]

Are the enlargers condenser or diffusion type?
Condenser types are more contrasty by design than diffusion type. I have both and can tell you it can make a big difference!
For 35mm, I use a Durst color head which produces very soft prints without any filtration. For 6x6, I have a condenser unit which has much more contrast and tends to produce more dramatic prints from the get go.