Author Topic: Van Dyke Brown prints (Read 3894 times)

Mojave · « **on:** July 23, 2011, 08:39:12 PM »

These are my first and I am loving this whole process. There are so many things that can be done to make the prints look different, like sizing and not sizing the paper. I also love that I can make a digital image into a film print so easily.

Anybody else have experience with this printing process and have images they'd like to share? I'd love to see them.

Mojave · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2011, 08:41:32 PM »

A few more.

Heather · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2011, 11:40:15 PM »

I've played with it a bit and still have a bottle mixed up. But whenever I show anyone my VDB prints, they think they'd look better in cyanotype :/

self portrait

This one is a darkroom-enlarged negative onto ortho litho film from a 35mm negative.

I tend to have problems with streaky coatings with VDB, dunno why. I should try a drop of photoflo in my solution, really. Another suggest i've heard is to keep brushing until everything's absorbed.

Mojave · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2011, 02:38:30 AM »

Heather, these are terrific!!! Is that a rock couch? I love it!!!

I found that by sizing (sp) the paper first, I didnt get brush stroke marks on the print but without it I sure did. I like the brush strokes in some cases so Im going to actually shoot for getting them in some prints. What I didnt like, and cant seem to figure out, are the blueish marks I get in most of the prints. I thought maybe it was silver nitrate in the developing tub but I made sure I scrubbed that tube between prints and I still got the blue blobs. I have no idea what its coming from but suspect it might be from the brush. It has metal binding on it. I think I need to invest in a good brush that doesnt have metal binding. What kind of brush do you use?

LT · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2011, 08:40:02 AM »

Nice stuff Erin - I love alt processes and these look great. I don't have the patience to fiddle about with this stuff, but am always in awe of other who do. I like the dog pic particularly.

Don't mean to be heavy handed, but just a quick reminder to keep the focus on the ones that come from film negative to stay in the spirit of this site

Heather · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2011, 10:10:46 AM »

Erin - It's actually a chair made of very carefully researched perfectly stale-but-not-too-stale bread. My friend made it for her MA in performance art (erm I think that was it). That was actually part of her performance. People always think it's rocks and I thought it being brown it would make it look MORE like bread but apparently not.

I don't think that silver nitrate can cause blue marks... but I know that one of the chemicals in the VDB mix is the ammonium citrate green stuff which you use in cyanotypes... You're not mixing your brushes, are you? I have basically a fancy pastry brush for VBD and a "hake" (one of those sewn onto a wooden handle bristled brushes) for cyanotype. I prefer the hake because it's better made and the bristles don't fall out as easily as the cheap pastry brush thing I got from a certain reputable seller of all things photographic I refuse to tell off for the brush

But I guess if you can get a pastry brush with the bristles glued into a wooden handle instead of a metal ferrule that'll work too. But the Alternative Photography website seemed to think that unless you're soaking the metal ferrule in a solution, it shouldn't matter much. My friend uses a synthetic brush with a metal ferrule for his platinum/palladium prints and has never had a problem except for a few random black spots which were faults in the paper - not the brush or liquid.

Did you mix your own solution? You should check your ammonium citrate doesn't have blue pieces in it - it's probably off in some way and you should buy fresh and remix (ouch, never nice to hear after mixing in that expensive silver nitrate

)

Mojave · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:18:49 PM »

Thank you so much Leon!!! You arent being heavy handed. I wasnt sure about that print but thought it would fit within the guidelines of wasting film since it had to be printed out as a negative on film before I could turn it into a VDB print. And boy, did I waste film getting that print right. I sure learned a lot about what a negative has to look like before it will work with this alt process.

As for complexity, I just got a kit and mixed it up and I was off and running. It was actually easier to get started than developing black and white negatives myself. And since you have a darkroom already set up, you should try it out. I think your ocean shots would work out very nicely with this technique, or the cyanotype, which I think Im going to try next.

Mojave · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:30:18 PM »

Heather, thank you so much for all the wonderful info! Now that you mention the bread, I can totally see that it is bread. Its wonderful. Could she actually sit down on it without squishing the bread or did she have to pretend to be sitting down so the bread wouldn't flatten?

I bought a kit and mixed it up according to the directions and since some of the prints come out fine, I think it must be mixed right. And I mix the chemicals by swishing them around in the bottle and with the brush before I put it on the paper. And I use only one brush. I havent tried the cyanotype process yet, but plan too soon. So Im stumped. Maybe the kit chems were messed up or something, but I doubt it. Oh well, I'll keep at it. Im sure when I get new chemicals this problem will go away. Well, Im going to hope it will.

LT · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:48:13 PM »

Quote from: Mojave on July 24, 2011, 04:18:49 PM

Thank you so much Leon!!! You arent being heavy handed. I wasnt sure about that print but thought it would fit within the guidelines of wasting film since it had to be printed out as a negative on film before I could turn it into a VDB print. And boy, did I waste film getting that print right. I sure learned a lot about what a negative has to look like before it will work with this alt process.

You raise a good point there - what actually is "Film"? I think as far as film wasters is concerned, film is a photographic medium that has a layer of light sensitive chemicals on it to be used inside a non-digital camera. A digital inter-negative is an inkjet print in negative form, but it is still on a type of film, just not photographic film. Probably best to stick with the chemical/photographic films to be certain.

Mojave · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2011, 04:59:10 PM »

LOL!!! Will do Leon, and thank you for the clarification. On a side note, I have to say that it felt really good turning that digital image into a film one. Felt kind of like film eating up digital instead of the other way around.

Heather · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:24:11 PM »

Quote from: Mojave on July 24, 2011, 04:30:18 PM

Heather, thank you so much for all the wonderful info! Now that you mention the bread, I can totally see that it is bread. Its wonderful. Could she actually sit down on it without squishing the bread or did she have to pretend to be sitting down so the bread wouldn't flatten?

I bought a kit and mixed it up according to the directions and since some of the prints come out fine, I think it must be mixed right. And I mix the chemicals by swishing them around in the bottle and with the brush before I put it on the paper. And I use only one brush. I havent tried the cyanotype process yet, but plan too soon. So Im stumped. Maybe the kit chems were messed up or something, but I doubt it. Oh well, I'll keep at it. Im sure when I get new chemicals this problem will go away. Well, Im going to hope it will.

Oh it was a very complex structure which had much time and research put into it before the final version, so there were layers of very stale bread underneath and the top layer were more fresh and cushion-y. I think there's only about 4 or 5 loaves that were fresh that she's sitting on directly.

Hmm you're mixing the chemicals each time? That's a little unusual for VDB... The way I had to make it was to mix up the ammonium citrate (and water), then the tartaric acid (in water already), then add in the silver nitrate solution drip by drip so you don't end up with "green curdled milk" precipitate.. though gentle heating and a bit more tartaric acid helps that go back into solution. Also I thought you were suppose to mix VDB then leave it in a dark cupboard for a week and it gets better with age

How odd... I've never used the kits before as they seemed more expensive than buying everything separately, including a set of small scales. What water did you use to mix it up? Distilled/de-ionised? Tap water might have too many weird bits in it.

Maybe we should get Leon to do a negative swap with me and I'll enlarge a negative for him in the darkroom and print it as cyanotype to see how he likes it?

Also, ahem, so this would be fine if the images originated In A Film Camera On Film but then enlarged digitally on some plastic film?

Just playing devil's advocate here. I guess that is the remit of the forum, huh?

LT · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:34:18 PM »

that would be fine Heather - it's quite simple really:

Started on Film? Then is is Filmwasters safe
Started in pixels? It's not filmwasters safe

you can do what the hell you want with it in between.

Mojave · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:35:26 PM »

Oh yeah, all my VDB prints are enlarged and printed on transparency film. The ones I left started as film shots, taken with film cams, but I did invert them and print them all to the transparency film for the final contact print. Not sure if thats ok or not.

Sorry for not being clearer Heather. When I say I mix the chemicals each time, I mean I am sure to stir them up in the jar before sticking the brush into them. I mixed them up originally just as you described. The three chems were mixed up separately and then added together. I wonder if they are gooping up and thats what's causing the blue marks. I cant tell because I cant see them at all. Im too afraid of using even a night light in the room. Some UV light does get in but not much. I have big plastic bags over the windows.

I didnt realize you could buy the chems separately. Duh!

The kit was expensive and I want to do more so I think maybe I'll buy the chems separately from now on. And I already have a scale so thats good.

Mojave · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:36:50 PM »

Oh, ok Leon. Got it. Thanks!!!

LT · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:38:06 PM »

Quote from: Mojave on July 24, 2011, 05:35:26 PM

Oh yeah, all my VDB prints are enlarged and printed on transparency film. The ones I left started as film shots, taken with film cams, but I did invert them and print them all to the transparency film for the final contact print. Not sure if thats ok or not.

if they fit the "started on film" rule (see above), then that is fine. I thought you listed above that some originated on digital cameras? that seems to have gone now, unless I was seeing things before?

Mojave · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:40:06 PM »

LOL! No Leon, you werent seeing things. It was there but I took that off since it wasnt right for the site.

Suzi Livingstone · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2011, 09:32:02 PM »

I LOVE these Erin! They're wonderful.. I wanna try!

Francois · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2011, 09:33:05 PM »

So, if I photograph an analog picture using a digital camera to print on a transparency to do an enlarged alt process print which I scan to post on the site, it's still ok

You all had me worried for a moment

Diane Peterson · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2011, 10:04:42 PM »

Erin!! Me too, me too!

LT · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2011, 10:06:35 PM »

Quote from: Francois on July 24, 2011, 09:33:05 PM

So, if I photograph an analog picture using a digital camera to print on a transparency to do an enlarged alt process print which I scan to post on the site, it's still ok

You all had me worried for a moment

yes - that's absolutely right Francois. You are correct, as ever.

(What did he say?)

Francois · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2011, 10:24:32 PM »

Mojave · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2011, 06:36:13 AM »

Diane and Suzi, I highly recommend it. Its fun and easy and I just love the look. I got the kit to start off with but will be getting just the chems soon. The kit is pricey but its super easy to use so I recommend starting off with it. You dont even need a dark room for it. What you need to start is:

two trays, one for water and one for fixer.
I jar for the sensitizing chems. I used a glass cookie jar and wrapped it up in black tape.
The kit, which includes everything in dry form and you mix it with water, easy easy.
Transparency film to print your negative on.
Running water source.
A room with subdued light. A bathroom with a nightlight could work. And if you have windows in the bathroom, just cover them with a black plastic bag. Its ok if some light leaks in around the edges.
A picture frame with glass that you dont mind snapping the back in half on. That is so you can lift up one side of the back to pull the print out.

And thats pretty much it. Online tutorials make it all seem complex with the exposure test strips and stuff and with the proper framing apparatus. I just bent the backing on my large frame so one side can stay locked down and I can open the other side to put the print and neg in and pull it out when its done. I can include a picture if that hasnt made any sense. And as for exposure, I just watch the color of the chems. Once they start to look like copper, I know its done. There is a way to make them toned too. Very easy to do. There is a tutorial on youtube. I think Im going to try that next.

sapata · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2011, 11:33:11 AM »

Erin... the chair and the wheel are both stunning!

This is an awesome process that is on my list of "must do"... very inspiring.

Suzi Livingstone · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2011, 01:46:56 PM »

Quote from: Mojave on July 25, 2011, 06:36:13 AM

Diane and Suzi, I highly recommend it. Its fun and easy and I just love the look. I got the kit to start off with but will be getting just the chems soon. The kit is pricey but its super easy to use so I recommend starting off with it. You dont even need a dark room for it. What you need to start is:

two trays, one for water and one for fixer.
I jar for the sensitizing chems. I used a glass cookie jar and wrapped it up in black tape.
The kit, which includes everything in dry form and you mix it with water, easy easy.
Transparency film to print your negative on.
Running water source.
A room with subdued light. A bathroom with a nightlight could work. And if you have windows in the bathroom, just cover them with a black plastic bag. Its ok if some light leaks in around the edges.
A picture frame with glass that you dont mind snapping the back in half on. That is so you can lift up one side of the back to pull the print out.

And thats pretty much it. Online tutorials make it all seem complex with the exposure test strips and stuff and with the proper framing apparatus. I just bent the backing on my large frame so one side can stay locked down and I can open the other side to put the print and neg in and pull it out when its done. I can include a picture if that hasnt made any sense. And as for exposure, I just watch the color of the chems. Once they start to look like copper, I know its done. There is a way to make them toned too. Very easy to do. There is a tutorial on youtube. I think Im going to try that next.

Where did you get the kit from? I wanna try it.

Mojave · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:05:12 PM »

Thank you so much Sapata!!! I hope you do try it. Its really easy and fun. I love watching the chemicals get dark in the sun.

Suzi, I got it from Freestyle in LA but Im guessing there is a place to get it on your side of the pond. Its a common kit that I've seen sold at all kinds of places. I just happened to be at freestyle getting some HC110 and saw the set up there and after talking to the salesperson, who made the prints I saw, I decided to buy the materials. I tell you though, if I had thought I'd need to buy all the stuff they had set up there, I wouldn't have tried this. It was expensive! The folding back frame was 125 and who knows how much the UV light box cost. But this is the kit as seen on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Formulary-07-0080-Dyke-Printing/dp/B0010C8ABI

I am looking forward to seeing your results!! Its so exciting!!!

Francois · « **Reply #25 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »

If you don't want to spend on a good printing frame, you can use a regular clip frame. As for the UV light source: sun, arc type tanning lamps and blacklight tubes will work.

Suzi Livingstone · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2011, 04:47:59 PM »

Thanks Erin, Francois