Topic: Update: Removing the black backing on FP 100 C

[original_ann]

I came across this wonderful follow-up from one of my film friends with regard to removing the black mask from Fuji's FP 100c  (recall original post here: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=2850.0 )

Instead of straight bleach, he's had great success with 'Scrubbing Bubbles w/ Bleach':
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum234/79276-polaroid-fp100c-processing-scrubbing-bubble-bleach.html

[Photo_Utopia]

First of all I want to qualify that I haven't used the Fuji peel apart so I've obviously not tried (yet) this modus.
My background is in chemical photo processing so I wanted to add after reading the original thread that many people seemed to find the negatives dense and hard to scan.
In my opinion, the negative (donor) must have some kind of fix/bleach applied that goes to the print possibly the donor negative is not considered final output so has no clearing agents?
My thought is that the negatives might be dense because of high silver retention, normal fixing for 5 mins or even photo blix would probably give a better density for scanning.
Just my 2¢
Mark

[Ed Wenn]

And why not resurrect/update one of my fave ever Filmwasters threads? Great stuff. Thanks Ann.

 

I very much like the sound of this different method (which essentially involves using a jelly-like bleach instead if thick liquid bleach, thus doing away with the need to tape your neg onto a sheet of glass) and would give it a go in an instant (pun intended) if Trask's jelly of choice "Scrubbing Bubbles with Bleach" was available in the UK. It certainly isn't easily available in this country under that name, but I'm hoping that I'll be able to find something similar in the local supermarket.

One other thing struck me while reading the APUG post from Trask, and that was the following sentence:

Once rinsed, you can go ahead and remove the jelly-like material on the emulsion side, either under running water or with a soak.

....now as Photo Utopia correctly points out, a number of us were having problems with the resulting negs being quite dense and a bit tricky to scan. The thing is, I never even thought about soaking the emulsion side to get rid of the goop. Doh! This is also very much worth investigating.

Thanks!

[DrewCollier]

First post! Love the forum! I own 80 or so cameras.

I was a bit afraid to use bleach because I am awful at keeping it from getting everywhere. I did some experimentation and found that the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser actually took the black mask off. It seemed to slightly scratch the back plastic but it didn't seem to affect the scan at all. I tried it on my first shot and worked out great. I ended up taking the goop off under a running sink and blow drying it.
The negative seems to hold up to abuse pretty well. I don't know if you can get something like the Magic Eraser in the UK but it's pretty neat product. No harsh chemicals or anything. I didn't even wear gloves for it. Not sure what the black is made out of so I made sure to wash my hands after I did it. Need to pick up some gloves. It might be a more expensive route than bleach but it works well. Try it out!

[tkmedia]

I have not tried the eraser. I do know a similar product is available in the uk as I have bought a melamine based sponge in the uk before, got it at asda iirc. mr clean is known as "flash" in the uk, but I dont think they are carrying the sponges.

[Heather]

There's lots of "magic erasers" in the UK, they're all melamine foam and usually nothing added to it (or none that I've found so far). I actually use one in my fish tank to scrub off the algae, it works great. I'll have to use a fresh one on one of my negatives. I assume you are using it damp? Are you soaking the negative in water too, to soften up the black backing?

[Ed Wenn]

Question for the chemists:

Since this modified approach centres itself around using a thick bleach solution that doesn't run or slop about....is there a material that one could add to standard thick bleach to make it thicker - e.g. flour?

Also, I'm not usually one to reference Fickle in my Filmwasters posts, but for those who are interested in Fickle groups, this one http://www.flickr.com/groups/instant-negative/ is entirely appropriate to link to here. Just started up yesterday I think. The admin invited me to join. There are just two of us now.
 

[Ed Wenn]

OK, we may have a result!! This product looks like just the ticket...and it has a stupid name to boot.

 

Domestos Grotbuster
Domestos Grotbuster Cleaning Gel has been specially formulated to tackle even the toughest germ-infested grot, including mould. With the strength to stick to and clean vertical surfaces, this super thick bleach cleaning gel dissolves grease and grime on contact, leaving surfaces sparkling and safe from germs.

[Heather]

Completely off topic but now I must hunt down that grotbuster for my 4-fully-tiled-walled bathroom. Definitely.

[Photo_Utopia]

looks like the stuff Ed. Now all you need to do is re-bottle it in small clear bottles print new lablels with 'Neg-a-restore' on them. Sell them at £12.49 and Bobs y' uncle.

Or is that un-ethical?  

[LT]

OK, we may have a result!! This product looks like just the ticket...and it has a stupid name to boot.

 

Domestos Grotbuster
Domestos Grotbuster Cleaning Gel has been specially formulated to tackle even the toughest germ-infested grot, including mould. With the strength to stick to and clean vertical surfaces, this super thick bleach cleaning gel dissolves grease and grime on contact, leaving surfaces sparkling and safe from germs.

what happened to our non-advertising policy Ed? 

[Francois]

Since this modified approach centres itself around using a thick bleach solution that doesn't run or slop about....is there a material that one could add to standard thick bleach to make it thicker - e.g. flour?

I think thickening bleach should be left to the real experts as I have absolutely no idea what they add to it to make it thick. Being a strong oxidizer, I guess it would pretty much deteriorate anything you put in it.

But one option I am thinking of goes more along the way of dam building.
Take a plastic container a bit bigger than the negative and cut out the bottom.
Once the negative is taped down, you can use some modeling clay to seal the top of the container against the glass. Fill with regular bleach and let it work away

[Ed Wenn]

what happened to our non-advertising policy Ed?  

I specifically waited until after I'd bought 4000 Unilever* shares before placing the Domestos Grotbuster advertorial. Anyway, leon, at least Domestos Grotbuster is an analogue product, not a digital one.
 

* Unilever are the parent company of the Domestos brand.

Francois: I like your idea a lot. Might be a useful fallback if the Domestos Grotbuster doesn't do the business. Using our original method peeling the neg off the glass with all of that duct tape on it, was a real pain.

[DrewCollier]

There's lots of "magic erasers" in the UK, they're all melamine foam and usually nothing added to it (or none that I've found so far). I actually use one in my fish tank to scrub off the algae, it works great. I'll have to use a fresh one on one of my negatives. I assume you are using it damp? Are you soaking the negative in water too, to soften up the black backing?

Yes, it seems melamine foam is the stuff. You dampen it and it disintegrates as you use it. I didn't try soaking because it was coming off pretty easily but I need to experiment more. That's a good idea!

[Francois]

Francois: I like your idea a lot. Might be a useful fallback if the Domestos Grotbuster doesn't do the business. Using our original method peeling the neg off the glass with all of that duct tape on it, was a real pain.

You could always try replacing the duct tape with several layers of electric tape. It's waterproof and peels off more easily.

[original_ann]

Oh awesome Ed!  That looks like it'll work!  I still have yet to try this out but am really looking forward to doing so.  I see that Trask is a filmwaster member (aka traskblueribbon).  If there are specific questions, he may be able to clarify.  

[Phil Bebbington]

Ed, perhaps you should qualify it by saying other bleach products are available!

[Ed Wenn]

I see that Trask is a filmwaster member (aka traskblueribbon).  If there are specific questions, he may be able to clarify.  

Herr Trask ain't been around these parts recently, which is a shame. I did figure it was probably the same Trask when I read the APUG post. Thanks again for drawing our attention to it.

[Ed Wenn]

looks like the stuff Ed. Now all you need to do is re-bottle it in small clear bottles print new lablels with 'Neg-a-restore' on them. Sell them at £12.49 and Bobs y' uncle.

Or is that un-ethical?  

This is a killer idea. Don't let the Lomo Soc hear you saying it though or they'll have the product re-packaged, re-priced and on the virtual shelves quicker than you can say, "Other bleach products are available"

 

See what I did there, Phil?   

[DrewCollier]

Here is my attempt with melamine foam. I took the goop off the front with some warm water, then soaked the negative for a bit to see if it would soften up. It seemed to come off a bit easier this time and barely scratched the negative.

[Phil Bebbington]

Slick as a slick thing, Ed 

[Ed Wenn]

Here is my attempt with melamine foam.

Good work, Drew. This looks very clear indeed! Great detail and range of tones.

[formica]

has anyone had problems rinsing off the goop? i read somewhere that someone was having problems with washing off the emulsion at the same time(as in the emulsion being destroyed). something to do with humidity or temp of the water. i've been a little wary of doing much rinsing as a result. has anyone had any problems with this?

            william

[calbisu]

I have never had any problems rinsing the goop. Just plain cold water and rubbing with the fingers. As per the bleach now I pour just some over some ¨kitchen paper towels¨, leave it 20 minutes and then remove it with more bleach and paper towels.

[Francois]

i read somewhere that someone was having problems with washing off the emulsion at the same time(as in the emulsion being destroyed).

Warm and hot water would indeed soften the emulsion. Don't forget it's probably held in a gelatin layer.

[pacorocha]

Some of you knows who was the inventor of this technique?

it enchants, to see as much people using already this process to me shortage in my humble laboratory

Thanks...

This was the FIRSTS fp100 b/c negatives.

On flickr. www.flickr.com/photos/pacorocha

[Ed Wenn]

Hi Paco....thanks for stopping by and saying hello. The idea of reclaiming a negative from Fujifilm is an inspired one. It's a very exciting process, thanks for thinking of it.

 

One question (for Paco or anyone else)...I realise now that with my first few attempts to reclaim a neg from FP-100C, I didn't actually remove the goop from the front of the neg. I easily got rid of the black stuff with the bleach, but didn't realise that the goop came off too (some of you may have noticed this slip up in our video podcast tutorial....something I'll need to correct ASAP).

Is there a 'must do before' time limit on the goop removal? The bleach removal can be done ages after the photo is taken - makes sense as the black backing is in place right from the start so time shouldn't be a factor - but the goop I'm guessing will harden over time. Should I soak in warm water and see what happens?

[pacorocha]

warm water is dangerous for the goop, can dissolve the emulsion in a few seconds. When i start with dry negatives puts on cold water for 10 minutes or one day doesn`t matter, the "white past" with the waste of process chemical dissolves easy in plain cold water. You can use little amount (very dilute 1+10) of normal acid fixer bath.
For black and white, you can put the negative previous in a selenium bath (cold bath) to enhance Dmax
For Color, if you have color negative developer try-it..... mmmm goooood
Sorry for my english, is very bad.

Thanks to all... this process will be the future, a new age for instant films.

[Ed Wenn]

OK, I think I understand what you're saying (and don't apologise for your 'bad' English....my Spanish is far worse  ). I'll steer clear of warm water and try cold water soak for 10 minutes. Failing that I still have some fixer lying around so I'll try that too.

I have a load of old images to try this with so I won't damage anything that's special to me.

[pacorocha]

jajajajaja, Ed this negative is very delicate, but not an "egg". The first fp100c negative processed was a "waste" in my car in summer around 15 days and then i found it behin a tripod and processed....

the "big problem" is the bleach, if touch the emulsion..... even diluted.... BYE BYE.... negative

[Ed Wenn]

Thanks, Paco.