Topic: Rodinal Development, What could be causing this?

[Mike (happyforest)]

I am using Rodinal to develop my films at present and this is the first 120 film that I have used since trying to standardise on one developer.

This film is expired TMax 400, nominally rated at 400 and developed for 10 mins in 1:50, 10 mls Rodinal to 500 mls of water.  For exposure I used one of the charts based around sunny f15 rule\ultimate exposure computer to base exposure on.  This was a test roll to test out a new camera and developer.

When researching the use of rodinal I have noted that other users have said that it can be susceptible to over agitation and this may exhibit itself in uneven development, amongst other things.  Other pearls of wisdom have been uneven edge development.

I agitated by rotating gently for the 1st minute. (I have always used this method without issue.) Then two gentle rotations every minute thereafter.

I also left the adhesive tape on the film used to secure to the paper backing but folded this over so that it stuck to the film.  However when removing the film from the tank this had come loose on the one side.  (Again I have done this with other films without issue.

The first picture is the first frame on the film and was on the outside of the processing reel.  It is obviously suffering from uneven edge developing but I am not sure what may be causing the banding\artifacts in the sky.

The second picture is the fourth frame on the film does not appear to be suffering from as much uneven edge development or the banding\artifacts in the sky.  The rest of the film again seems to more evenly developed with no banding although they have do not have such large areas of highlight values (Sky).

All the previous films I have put through this developer have been 35mm and I have used stand development with a pre-wash before the developer, again the pre-wash seem to be the consensus amongst those that used Rodinal for stand development to eliminate uneven development.

I am inclined to pre-wash my next film, reduce the initial agitation.

What do you think could be causing the banding\artifacts in the highlight values and what do you think you would do differently?

Mike


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[Francois]

Well, for one I always pre-wash even if I'm using D-76 or HC-110. I also always agitate using the "tai-chi" method.

On your film, it looks like the developer was moving much faster on the outside of the reel.

Is your camera the type that uses horizontal or vertical film travel?

[Minutefilm]

Hi Mike,

I had this once, years ago, I had always used the little post to turn the film in the tank and got the same difference in density at the edges.  However afterwards I always sealed up the tank and inverted it for agitation.  I have been devving with rodinal using Lucky 100 film (which I won't be using again!) but 12 mins at 70 degrees, 1:50, agitate for 1 min inverting, then leave alone for 4 mins, agitate for 15 sec inverting, leave for 4 mins etc.  Works a treat.

Ben

[sapata]

Quite interesting topic...
I processed this film using Rodinal some time ago with  and I thought that my Rollei had some sort of light leak.

I'm posting a quick scan and you can notice at the edge of the frames same similar problem, I had never had that before unless using crap cameras but since I paid a reasonable amount of money for my Rollei it was a bit of a shock to see that.

Is this uneven processing ? Is this why we pre soak films ?  I heard so much about pre soaking films that it's a bit confusing, like people saying that Ilford do not recommend, having to compensate etc etc...  I did once and I was so scared when I saw the black water coming out of my tank that I never did it again... It's strange of how you don't get that colour when you don't soak and put the developer straight away, where does the colour go ? maybe the chemical reacts in a way that "gets rid of " the colour ?

I'd love to hear more about this processing from you guys.

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[LT]

Looks like you guys need a review of your agitation technique to me. the rolls are over developing at the edges - a bit too much swirl and not enough tip I'd say. 

Regarding pre-soaks ... some manufactures (maybe all) add stuff to film coatings to ensure even take up of developer so dont recommend pre-soaking.  I like to make sure my film is the same temp as the developer so I pre-soak for that reason.  the black water is just the anti-halation dye that is on sheet and roll film washing out and it makes no difference if it there during development or not.  Some films (SFX for example) dont have an AH dye coating so you wont see it, and the same is for 35mm   - their AH is in the film base itself (hence the darker look to them).  Some films it is dark black-blue, other green.

I've always wondered why some developers seems to clear the AH dye and others dont.  but that's just the way of the world.  My dev of choice doesnt clear it, and comes out blue after development if it's not been washed off first.  It makes no difference to the development thought

I doubt that a pre-soak would ameliorate the problems here though.  Invert more and swish less - hopefully that will sort it out.

Or maybe try a "proper" developer (runs and hides for cover)

Leon

[sapata]

It makes sense leon...

I have been doing Rodinal stand developing and never have this problem again, the Rollei pictures were processed before I' found this technique.

Regardless the stand developing technique I've always heard that too much agitation on Rodinal would not be good so I didn't invert the tank just swirl.

Out of all the chaos involved in the film process, the good thing  to know is that my Rollei won't need any repair !!!

[Francois]

I know film processing flaws are always a B**** to diagnose.
I have a few spare tanks I've never used. One of them is a big 4 reel tank with tapered sides (made by Vivitar)... it contains way more solution than the Patterson tanks and yet uses quite similar reels. I know it will process film differently than my small tank.

Agitation speed and direction of motion all affect the final result. I think I would even go as far as saying that the tank design has a direct effect on processing...

[Mike (happyforest)]

Francois, Thank you.  I did wonder if this artefact was because the first couple of frames would have been on the outside of the reel. I also wonder because the tape didn?t stay down whether this created some sort of drag effect, although this has happened before with other developers with out issues.  The camera is vertical film travel.

Ben\Leon, I had revised my agitation technique based on what others have said about how Rodinal responds to agitation. My normal method is to twist\swish the reel back and forth for 5 seconds every 30 seconds. For this film I only twisted it 2 times every minute.  If this is agitation and in particular as Francois has suggest because the film on the outside was travelling faster than the inside.  I am surprised that the inner frames have not suffered, as the agitation technique was considerably less vigorous than my normal technique.

Perhaps the mistake here was to listen to others views on agitation and I should have carried as normal.  The images may have come out fine and I would be none the wiser.

I?m not sure where to go from here:

Do I return to my normal agitation technique?

Do I agitate less as Ben has suggested?

Do I follow Leon?s advice and use an agitation technique that I have no prior experience with?


Since first getting Rodinal I have developed mainly stand development but with no consistent time\technique\film. Playing really and I?ve been lucky that I have managed in most cases to get reasonable images.

However I felt that I ought at least to attempt to get to grips with Rodinal before an important set of images came along. So this was my first attempt to start that process and was the most inconsistent results I?ve had for sometime.

I would seem that it is a beast to tame compared to some other developers so I can understand why some people swear by it and others swear at it.

 Thank you all for your help thus far.  I sure I will be back with more soon.

[hookstrapped]

I don't think this is your problem, but while on the topic of uneven development...  When I tried to develop a single roll of 35 and save a little money by just covering the reel in developer (in a Patterson tank), 400ml instead of 500 ml, I got very uneven sprocket hole flow development.  I think it's good to keep your film completely submerged while agitating.

[Francois]

The purpose of agitation is to bring fresh developer to the film while whisking away the byproducts created by development. Since the film traveled vertically, the top of the images goes the length of the film (well... sort of). If you rotated always in the same direction, you would get an obvious dragging motion. When processing calls for an inversion, it is to break this pattern.

Back in school, we were thought to use what we called the Tai-Chi method. This produces a more "elliptical" pattern while being quite gentle. Also, we tapped the tank bottom with the palm of our hand before setting it on the table. This further agitates while floating air bubbles to the surface.

I also always used more developer than required by the tank.

[Mike (happyforest)]

Well it's been sometime since I first posted this but I have just put a 2nd roll of 120 through Rodinal 1:50 and am please that I've had none of the above issues with this latest film.

My technique this time was a pre-wash and gentle inversion agitation for 1 minute. then 1 inversion every minute.

Thanks

Mike

[sapata]

I'm glad you found your way Mike, I guess Rodinal it's a very versitile developer and everyone has a different way of using it. The stand develpment suits me since I don't need to be nursing the tank and it's very economic as well !