Topic: Vericolor 4111 (no orange mask)

[original_ann]

... I have about 15 boxes of 4x5 sheets - good for just testing things out, but frustrating when I develop something I'd like to use and have no way to scan accurately for color balance. 

Because it has no orange mask, it scans very cyan.  But nothing I do to adjust will balance or restore the colors.  I've tried taking the leader from a developed roll of color neg film to test what would happen if I overlaid the orange mask over a portion of one of my 4111 sheets.  Nope - doesn't work. 

My photo lab suggested I scan as a positive, open in P'Shop and choose a blend mode of Difference.  Nope.

Has anyone ever used this stuff and/or are good enough at color technicals to make suggestions to me how I might be able to salvage images printed on these sheets?

[Andrea.]

It works great for cross-process if that's any help

[gregor]

try invert to see if it's closer to the expected colors.  and also try invert & equalize.  I use silverfast & scanwise.  Silverfast has selectable color profiles for a variety of films. when I run into similar issues I select a different film profile which usually solves my problems. In silverfast I would scan as a negative as the profiles are not available for flatbed scans - only neg scans.

[Pete_R]

My photo lab suggested I scan as a positive, open in P'Shop and choose a blend mode of Difference.  Nope.

What are they suggesting that you blend it with?

Isn't 4111 intended for exposure to tungsten light? In which case, if you are exposing to daylight you will get a very blue result. Maybe it's more a case of needing to correct the colour when exposing rather than when scanning.

[Francois]

Thing is the film records a weird cast when you snap the picture, then the missing orange mask further screws thing up...

You could try and mess around with Ufraw which is a great raw converter by the way...

The only thing I can think of that would fix everything is Kodak's Applied Science Fiction Digital ROC

But I think the easiest thing would probably to post a scan of one of the images (scanned as a slide to avoid any correction from the scanner's part) and we could all pitch in to try and figure out a recipe to get it fixed...

[original_ann]

Peter Kodak Vericolor print film was used to make transparencies of color negs or to make internegatives - hence no orange mask.  I'm still thinking (hoping!) there's a way to finagle an acceptable color palette even if it's slightly off (.... or dramatically off in a pleasing way).  So far, no luck. 

Gregor, I use SilverFast Ai Studio - yes, I have played with MANY types of film hoping to find one that would be easier to work with.  No luck (so far).  What I do do is go into selective color and reduce the aqua/cyan for the individual colors  and I'm still left with WEIRD colors. 

The below are samples - a positive and a negative so you get the idea what they look like "uncorrected".  The negatives are scanned as if they are Fuji 160S negs.

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[original_ann]

Oh and Andrea - do you mean to have my lab process it as E6? Have you done this with 4111 before (and if so, I'd love to see an example). 

[gregor]

using your 1st image (4111-Sus-shoot-positive.jpg), with out of the box photoshop adjustments, this is the best I can do in a quick fix:  invert ->  channel mixer -> auto color.  If I spent more time in the channel mixer I would have yielded better results....



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[Pete_R]

Peter Kodak Vericolor print film was used to make transparencies of color negs or to make internegatives -

Yes, I understand that, which is why it's balanced for tungsten light and not daylight. It's also intended for exposures of between 1 and 20 seconds and, I guess, shorter exposures are likely to give uncorrectable colour casts due to reciprocity failure. I don't think you'll ever get realistic colours from this because it's being used in a way not intended. I would think the best option would be to xpro it based on Andrea's experience.

Data sheet is here if you need it (page three and four).

[Andrea.]

This was cross-processed Vericolor. Might be a slight change of colour when i scanned it with Vuescan

[original_ann]

Andrea,

That color palette is beautiful.  Yes, I'll try x-processing next time! (Hmmm.... wonder if I can learn to do that myself!).   Thanks Gregor for giving it a go!  Yes, when worked on I get colors like this and never am able to get brown hair to look anything like brown etc.    And Peter - it hadn't dawned on me that reciprocity failure could work in the "opposite" (ie. faster exposure) direction!  Aha! - thank you!

[Francois]

Boy, this is harder than I thought!
I tried using Digital ROC and a few color adjustments in photoshop... and it didn't turn out too good.

I also looked for free plugins that would do the job... not obvious.

But in the process, I did have an idea which is so twisted it just might work... but it requires you to use VueScan.

I was planning on having you make a custom ICC profile for your film.
In the input tab, you select the Task>Make an IT8 Target.
Once generated, you print it out and take a good picture of it (outside, no shadows and no reflections). Then, when you get the film back, you select Task>Profile film.

That should correct everything for good...

By the way, here's my attempt using Digital ROC... pitiful.
(I also used the color mixer quite a bit)

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