Author Topic: Leica gossip  (Read 2564 times)

Francois

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Leica gossip
« on: January 04, 2021, 03:54:59 PM »
Read this yesterday and I can't believe it's going under the radar.
I read that there are rumors that Leica might be coming with a budget 35mm camera this year.
I don't really know what they would call "budget" as it is Leica. But right now I'm cautiously optimistic about the whole thing.
Here are the articles about this
https://leicarumors.com/2020/12/28/a-new-cheap-leica-m-film-camera-is-rumored-for-2021.aspx/
https://petapixel.com/2021/01/02/what-a-new-budget-friendly-leica-m-35mm-camera-might-be-like/
Francois

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Kai-san

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2021, 04:14:10 PM »
There are two words in photography that does not belong together: Budget and Leica.  ;D
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cs1

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2021, 04:25:39 PM »
I don't think that this has been very much under the radar, however, the amount of information available at the moment is so little that (surprisingly) many people hold back with speculation.

Regarding cost I think that, considering that old Leica cameras can still be repaired, the big question is what "budget" means. You can get decent old Leicas that can still be repaired "on a budget". So I wonder how this camera will change the situation. Still, I think that it's nice that they'll be releasing a new 35mm camera.

Nigel

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2021, 04:26:27 PM »
I heard the same rumour, somewhere, I can't remember where. However, as the MP is £4,000 even if it's half the price that's still not cheap.

As I write this I was trying to decide whether I'd spend £2,000 on a new budget Leica or an M6 - I'm not sure.  :-\
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02Pilot

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2021, 04:48:25 PM »
I see only two basic approaches: either it's a stripped-down model on the basic M chassis, or it's outsourced to a collaborator. Leica has done the latter before, and I see no reason they wouldn't again to keep costs down. Frankly, I'd be more interested in a simple modern version of the CL than a stripper M, considering the market for used M-bodies is quite active, while the CLs are less common and more prone to age-related failure. They can always make some sort of hideous jewel-encrusted gold-and-ostrich hide version to sell for five figures to the Middle East and China if profits aren't high enough.
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Pete_R

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2021, 05:29:31 PM »
it's outsourced to a collaborator.

And as Cosina no longer make Voigtlander rangefinders...
"I've been loading films into spirals for so many years I can almost do it with my eyes shut."

Nigel

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2021, 05:37:19 PM »
it's outsourced to a collaborator.

And as Cosina no longer make Voigtlander rangefinders...

I think I'm a bit of an outlier but I really liked the Voigtlander rangefinders. I had a Bessa R3A which I sold and have regretted it since.
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Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2021, 08:43:32 PM »
I too was thinking of Cosina right from the start.
I'm thinking of a Bessa core with a Leica designed exterior wouldn't be that bad of a deal in the end.
Maybe add a few more modern twists to the whole thing and that could make for a quite decent camera.

One thing's for sure, I'm quite curious to see what could come out of this.

I wonder, if this ever comes out, if the regular film door or a Leica style back would be chosen?
Francois

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Pete_R

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2021, 08:51:21 PM »
I think I'm a bit of an outlier but I really liked the Voigtlander rangefinders. I had a Bessa R3A which I sold and have regretted it since.

I don't think you are Nigel. A lot of people liked them. I don't know why Cosina pulled the plug. And now owners seem to be hanging on to them which is pushing the prices up to, in my opinion, stupid levels.

But what's the alternative? Drum roll please - a budget Leica.

Maybe that's where Leica is coming from. The can see a gap left by the Voigtlanders. Whether Cosina builds the budget Leica or not, I think they've created the market and Leica are now looking to fill it.
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Pete_R

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2021, 08:53:35 PM »
I too was thinking of Cosina right from the start.
I'm thinking of a Bessa core with a Leica designed exterior wouldn't be that bad of a deal in the end.

I would hope they would improve the Cosina double shutter or do away with it and develop a new cloth shutter.
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02Pilot

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2021, 09:21:45 PM »
I would hope they would improve the Cosina double shutter or do away with it and develop a new cloth shutter.

I doubt that they will be developing anything new for this project (if it exists). I suspect the whole development process will be a struggle between the marketing, styling, and accounting departments, with the engineers doing what they're told (and probably shaking their heads).
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Pete_R

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2021, 09:46:32 PM »
I doubt that they will be developing anything new for this project (if it exists). I suspect the whole development process will be a struggle between the marketing, styling, and accounting departments, with the engineers doing what they're told (and probably shaking their heads).

Which is probably how the Cosina double shutter came about:

Engineers - "The CT-1 shutter isn't light tight. We need a new shutter. Let's get Copal to design us a new one".
Accountants - "WHAT! That'll cost far too much. The existing shutter is fine. Just stick another shutter in front of it".
Marketing - "Hey, a camera with TWO shutters in it. That's great. No one has done that before. Now we have a unique selling point. We just gotta have those two shutters".
Engineers - "Groan".



"I've been loading films into spirals for so many years I can almost do it with my eyes shut."

Nigel

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2021, 10:05:28 PM »
I doubt that they will be developing anything new for this project (if it exists). I suspect the whole development process will be a struggle between the marketing, styling, and accounting departments, with the engineers doing what they're told (and probably shaking their heads).

Which is probably how the Cosina double shutter came about:

Engineers - "The CT-1 shutter isn't light tight. We need a new shutter. Let's get Copal to design us a new one".
Accountants - "WHAT! That'll cost far too much. The existing shutter is fine. Just stick another shutter in front of it".
Marketing - "Hey, a camera with TWO shutters in it. That's great. No one has done that before. Now we have a unique selling point. We just gotta have those two shutters".
Engineers - "Groan".

I get the feeling we’ve sat in the same meetings.
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Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2021, 10:50:46 PM »
It's either that or they purchased the old FED or Arsenal factories...

Though I wouldn't mind a more modern FED 5B that takes M-Mount lenses...
Francois

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cs1

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2021, 11:01:27 PM »
I think that the most interesting points of this whole thing are that  (a) there'll be a new and sophisticated (!) camera (if we assume that Leica won't produce rubbish) and (b) there'll be tools in some manufacturer's production facility that can produce a new camera and spare parts. TL;DR: it's good news. 😀

Kai-san

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2021, 08:50:21 AM »
Maybe that's where Leica is coming from. The can see a gap left by the Voigtlanders. Whether Cosina builds the budget Leica or not, I think they've created the market and Leica are now looking to fill it.

Leica has done this before. A year and a half after the production of Zeiss Ikon was stopped in 2012, Leica issued a manual film camera. The Zeiss Ikon was far better, but there was a gap to fill.
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John Robison

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2021, 03:40:44 PM »
Honestly folks, the words ‘new’ and ‘film’ and ‘budget’ just don’t go together. The film market is tiny t-i-n-y, compared to it’s former self. Even digital dedicated camera sales are collapsing. All the tooling and expertise and engineering required to make even a simple 35mm SLR, Ricoh KR5 simple, would amount to zillions of dollars. And how would that start up cost be recovered?
By selling either a million cameras for $400 each...and that new price would be a hard sell against available used and higher spec cameras.
Or, selling them for $2000 each....and no reasonable person would pay that.
True, Leica has an name, and already makes a film camera and so, if based on this existing design, almost all the equipment is there to make a film camera, they can find a way to save cost, subcontracting parts elsewhere to be assembled by them perhaps.
Bottom line, mass production and that automated, makes things we can afford. But before a company commits to mass production they have to be sure, really sure, that there is a market at the price they have to sell at to make a profit and not go bankrupt.
At this point some may be thinking, ‘what a crabby old man, did somebody piss in his fixer’.
Well no, just mixed some fresh fixer, and although I’m old, and sometimes crabby, I believe my basic analysis is correct.

One more thing, the definition of ‘budget’ obviously varies greatly, depending on individual income and lifestyle.
So.....

Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2021, 09:09:27 PM »
I've been thinking about this and I believe there is a way to make one at a decent cost. But it would mean re-inventing a lot of things.
One of the big problems is that the M cameras all require a lot of mechanical parts that need to be precisely fitted and adjusted. That costs a lot of money. But on the other hand, electronics are super cheap and can be assembled by a monkey. So that would mean removing the expensive parts and replacing them with microcontrollers.

To make a cheaper camera, I would first remove the mechanical film advance and go to a built-in motor advance. But I would keep the crank rewind as it's cheap and simple. Make it run on a rechargeable battery simply because it's in vogue and it takes less space than AAs. I would replace the analog rangefinder by a digital one. I would keep the parallax correction just to keep it nice. I would also keep the nice viewfinder with automatic frame line switching. These have to be what makes a Leica a Leica. Since cloth shutters are cheap to manufacture when compared to precision engineered metal shutters, I would go that route... that is unless I have in stock some metal shutters for which the tooling is already in existence.
I would also keep the bottom loading. Unless the machines that make the backs are on the verge of being retired.

There are ways to cut corners even more. Heck, other manufacturers have been doing it for decades. I'm sure there will be a lot of plastic inside as it's cheap and easy to mold. All in all, I'm sure something like that could be produced for just a few hundred dollars.
Francois

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John Robison

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 02:02:57 AM »
There is also to consider, historically in 35mm, through the lens viewing and focusing aka SLR has always been more popular than superimposed range/viewfinders. True, both systems have their own advantages, and the (mostly I assume) old time experienced crowd at Filmwasters have and use both, each toward their strengths.
But I think we are a unique demographic and not generally representative of the overall market for a new 35mm camera.
If I were going to make a go at producing a new 35mm camera it would be a basic SLR, probably with a PK mount. Very much a copy of the aforementioned Ricoh KR-5. If I was successful at that, then, perhaps, a RF in the spirit of a Canon P, but with rubberized silk shutter and an M mount. But any lenses developed for it would be LTM because they can be used on both thread mount and M mount, and an M mount body can take both M and LTM w/adapter. If you make a new M mount lens you shut out all potential Barnack body owners.
Any new lenses would be modest designs with modest maximum apertures. Just don’t understand the lust for f.95 optics. Big, heavy, expensive, three killers of sales in my estimation. If you really need to used pushed ISO 1600 film and a super speed optic to shoot a black cat in a coal bin at midnight.....go get or borrow a digital camera.



Bryan

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 04:28:24 AM »
Maybe it’s a new Instax camera!  How about a Leica Sofort wide?  I’ll stick with my Barnacks.

zapsnaps

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 02:34:58 PM »
"Budget 35mm Leica film camera"? It's already out! And I already have one. The R8 can be yours, too, for £350 on the Bay. Had mine since new and it's a beast, but produces wonderful results. The glass is expensive, but not as expensive as the M optics. No, it's not a 'street' camera like the M - but it can be used as a street personal defence 'solution' for those brave enough to use it for street photography in the more colourful neighbourhoods of the grittier cities, at night.

While M users like to think they are discreet - they aren't (I had an M6 and got constant looks of approval from envious doctors and dentists) - the R8 gets almost as much attention as the Blad when walking around with it. Gents (they are always men) of a certain age nod in the direction of the machine and may mumble their approval. The youths just think there is an old guy with his old camera.

The R-route is a very overlooked way into LeicaLand.
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Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2021, 03:01:33 PM »
I must admit that the R bodies were just wonderful.

But somehow I see that new camera rumor in a different way.
User buys cheap camera but buys expensive glass to put on it.
And when user wants to upgrade camera, he buys expensive body to put expensive glass on it,

A bit like printers and ink...
Francois

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Bryan

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2021, 03:09:18 PM »
Francois you’re probably right, they are likely looking at it as a loss leader.  Sell the body at cost then sell more expensive lenses to attach to it. 

Kai-san

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2021, 06:11:27 PM »
Maybe it’s a new Instax camera!  How about a Leica Sofort wide?  I’ll stick with my Barnacks.

That would just fit the bill, a cheap plastic Fuji copy. I hope it's pink! I will stick to my non-Leica LTM's.
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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2021, 07:22:57 PM »
I suppose the real question here is exactly what market they are trying to serve (or exploit, depending on your preferred view of how all this works). It's not the high-end collector market, nor the established working pro photographer, nor even the established hobbyist (though there might be some spillover into the latter, depending on capabilities and price point). It seems to me the only demographic that would be reliably attracted to a budget Leica model would be young people looking to get into film, who know what Leica is but can't afford a real M plus glass (by which I mean overhauled and nearly perfect, or even more expensively artificially distressed, because, you know, authenticity), is scared by Barnacks (Knob wind?! But my manicure!), and wouldn't be caught dead using some cheap consumer brand (Nikon?! What am I, homeless?). Think millennials and whatever they're calling the next crop with more money than sense. It could well be a fixed prime lens camera, or more likely fixed zoom, but if not, M mount all the way (LTM isn't coming back, sorry to say). Many will end up barely used.

Leica's biggest asset, from a profit-making standpoint, is its name. Whatever it is, there are people who will want it because of the stupid red dot (which will be prominently displayed, unless you pay extra for the black one) and because it allows them to assert their position and status amongst their peer group. It will probably make good pictures, but I don't know that that's its primary purpose.
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.


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Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2021, 08:54:14 PM »
Leica always cultivated their cult status. And this is no different.
But it's come to a point where they moved from a great and expensive camera to a luxury item only rockstars can afford. The problem with that is that the number of sales being somewhat lower, the price gets driven up. Unless they release a product to give an option to their potential customers, they are stuck in an endless loop.

I remember that back in the early 90's when they released the M6, while it was expensive it wasn't completely out of reach. But now when a camera costs more than a small car, I don't know too many amateurs who would get one. Because this is their real market. Not the professional photographer who needs a high megapixel count workhorse. Not the beginner who's just happy not to cut aunt Judy's head off. But the passionate amateur who's willing to sacrifice quite a bit to get some of the best optics available.

Leicas are not about what they are but how they make you feel. And that's a really hard thing for a company to do.
Francois

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02Pilot

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2021, 11:29:31 PM »
I just realized that my newest Leica is 64 years old. My oldest is 87. I don't think I'm the target audience for this, whatever it is.
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.


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Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2021, 02:40:31 PM »
The only Leica I've got is my grandpa's 1C which is old like dirt... And all I got money for is a Soviet copy, so I'm not in the demographics either. But one can still dream.

Personally I'd love to fit my industar on a more ergonomic body.
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David A-W

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2021, 10:56:28 PM »
It'd be fun if it turned out to be Leica's first medium format film camera.. I'm thinking a rejuvenated Plaubel Makina.
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Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2021, 11:34:44 PM »
I just hope it won't be a Leica Pinhole camera...
I can already make one out of their 50$ tin box they sell on the LeicaRumours site....
Francois

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Re: Leica gossip
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2021, 08:47:30 AM »
I'm with David A-W - a Leica Makina would be a marvelous invention. Of the many cameras I still lust after, a Makina leads the pack, along with a 4x5 woody
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