Filmwasters
Which Board? => Main Forum => Topic started by: Verian on October 23, 2013, 02:01:40 PM
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I was wondering if there was any interest from members here in producing a magazine.
To give some background, I have previously run a small press, publishing handmade poetry chapbooks, which then moved up to paperbacks (not handmade) and hardbacks. I have also published a quarterly poetry magazine (web and print). Following this I was the editor of a football programme for Leamington FC (they are now about 6 divisions down from the Premier League) publishing, on average, once a week. So I have some experience in this sort of thing.
I would dearly love to be able to buy a magazine that was dedicated to film photography, covering old and new cameras, films, photographers, history etc.etc. but there isn’t really one out there. So why not make one?
My initial thoughts on it are not too grandiose. Put it out twice yearly, and in .PDF. A free publication that can be put on blogs, facebook, wherever people want under creative commons license.
To work it will require that folk put things forward to be included, or allow themselves to be badgered into doing it :D . Be it an article about a camera, film, printing etc. or a photo essay series. It could be anything relevant; My first camera, a selection from an old album, why a specific picture is important to somebody, anything at all.
I’m not one to throw out suggestions and then let other people do all the work, I’m quite prepared to put the effort in to get a first issue off the ground and further.
I would want it to be Filmwasters branded though, so fully expect for it to have to go through some kind of approval process before being made available. I’ve been a member of several forums, not just photography related, and this one is undoubtedly the most positive and least abrasive I’ve been involved with, it deserves a magazine!
So there we go, does this sort of thing sound appealing? Any initial thoughts, positive or negative?
Verian
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The magazine bug has been going around in the film photo world in recent months, hasn't it? ;D
I'd certainly be game, also because I think I could learn a lot about the process (been thinking of doing one myself for a while). Let's hear what the forces that be have to say about the FW branding (see the recent Exa thread, too).
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The magazine bug has been going around in the film photo world in recent months, hasn't it? ;D
It has. I actually do go through the magazine racks looking to see if there's anything related, even an article would be nice, rarely find much though.
I'd certainly be game, also because I think I could learn a lot about the process (been thinking of doing one myself for a while). Let's hear what the forces that be have to say about the FW branding (see the recent Exa thread, too).
I read the Exa thread, slight difference in that there is absolutely no intention of any money changing hands, which seemed to be the issue.
If the response were negative then it should be called "Filmwaster (not affiliated with Filmwasters)" ;D
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It's a good idea. There are plenty of people here on the forum who are already writing good articles and publishing good photos on their own blogs. So there is a pool of people right there that are capable and apparently willing. I'm sure that some of them would be willing to put an article in the magazine rather than on their personal blog once or twice a year. It would just be up to you as 'Editor in Chief' to either make selections from the flood of submissions from frustrated artists or to go out and tap someone you thought had something to contribute. Count me among the frustrated artists, willing to contribute what I can.
~J
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Before going any further, I think we should get Leon and Ed's word on that.
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Before going any further, I think we should get Leon and Ed's word on that.
No problem with that.
It's just a discussion at present and getting an idea of interest levels and suchlike. Talking it through might give Leon and Ed a little more information as to whether it is worth doing or not.
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Definitely Francois! One of my pinhole images was on the inside first page of Stacie Turner's magazine........As Yet Unnamed Toy Camera Magazine: Fall 2013 By Stacie Turner
But I would be interested at any rate.
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It's a good idea. There are plenty of people here on the forum who are already writing good articles and publishing good photos on their own blogs. So there is a pool of people right there that are capable and apparently willing. I'm sure that some of them would be willing to put an article in the magazine rather than on their personal blog once or twice a year. It would just be up to you as 'Editor in Chief' to either make selections from the flood of submissions from frustrated artists or to go out and tap someone you thought had something to contribute. Count me among the frustrated artists, willing to contribute what I can.
~J
I've managed a submission process before and sought out contributors. Apart from one venture, I have always had a small group of two or three to review submissions that make it past the initial criteria filters (such as submissions requested on a theme but the subs are not on that theme and suchlike). I can do it on my own but think it works better as a group. I've never done stock replies and have always taken the time to politely explain why the submission was not being used. The important things I think, are to always be positive, always polite and always respectful.
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Hi everyone. I'd like to hear Leon's take on it too ;D ;D
Speaking for myself, and I suspect the others who 'run' this site, I feel it's an honour that you'd consider branding your magazine with our site's name and I can't see why we can't get this to work as long as we agree to a few things right at the start. Probably just points such as the non-profit angle that you've raised already and also - thinking off the top of my head - making sure it doesn't come across as an anti-digital rant mag.
So from me it's a tentative (but very enthusiastic) 'thumbs up'. Let me get into a huddle with the other shadowy moderators and get back to you.
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This is where we have an issue, I refuse to be involved with anything that isnt going to make me a few quid and also I insist we hate on the digital crowd. Although anyone using a Nokia 920 is fine.
On a more serious note, I think its fine, subject to the caveats mentioned thus far - id like to think we can offer something quality, useful and interesting.
I would love to contribute where I can.. but im well known for being busy (NB:- for "busy" read "slacker")
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I've managed a submission process before and sought out contributors. Apart from one venture, I have always had a small group of two or three to review submissions that make it past the initial criteria filters (such as submissions requested on a theme but the subs are not on that theme and suchlike). I can do it on my own but think it works better as a group. I've never done stock replies and have always taken the time to politely explain why the submission was not being used. The important things I think, are to always be positive, always polite and always respectful.
That rings true with the FW spirit of being nice and including everyone who shoots film :) If this goes any further I'm willing to help out. I do web stuff all day so I could help with that part, but I also have no problem helping out in other ways.
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If our esteemed moderators / site owners are up for it, I'm more than happy to contribute in any way that I can.
However, I'm sure everyone who's expressed an interest to-date is mindful that there are significant practicalities and even legalities to be dealt with when it comes to publishing - whether on the internet or on paper. There's also the issue of editorial control (who says whose work is included and whose is rejected), ensuring technical accuracy of article / review content and avoiding publishing any comments that could be deemed libellous, defamatory or otherwise actionable against the owners, editorial staff and/or contributors.
Incidentally, where would the magazine ownership be registered? Who would actually "own" the magazine (they would need professional negligence and directors and officers cover to protect them individually or collectively in the event of any actions brought against them). If we're talking about actually publishing printed material, that would come at a cost. Even a "virtual" magazine could incur expenses.
All can be overcome, diaclaimered and/or insured against but I suspect that it will not be a simple task. Sorry if this has come across as negative - it's actually intended to be the exact opposite.
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Those are valid concerns, Paul. I suppose we're looking at something along the lines of "View Camera" magazine. Maybe we could find out what legal considerations they have to deal with. I suspect that as soon as we go public--i.e., start putting it on magazine racks anywhere we're liable to become somebody's target. My son has gotten into blacksmithing and regularly receives some very handcrafted magazines but my suspicion is that they are distributed to subscribers only and that may change the nature of their legal situations. Probably best to consult a lawyer in any case. Of course, reflecting the nature of the group, this would necessarily be an international venture. Maybe we could register in Uzbekistan....
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For me it would be a great honour and pleasure to contribute if desired. The indication of ownership and also image rights (model release, copyright) is very important imho. F.e. I publish all my pics at flickr under a creative commons licence since long. And a proofread for the not native english speakers like me would be very helpful.
It's a long way, let's go.
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A lot of people are using http://www.magcloud.com (http://www.magcloud.com) to self publish magazines.
Mike
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My feelings are go for it subject to Eds stuff.
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Fabulous to see such a positive response so far. All the points made are valid and, as I started the topic I’ll do my best to offer my interpretation of how matters would proceed, though this is all at the ideas stage and is there to be shaped into something workable, or not if it doesn’t get the green light.
Initially this would be a free .pdf magazine, produced to the very highest quality that the available resources will allow. Everybody here that wants to contribute to its creation should be given the opportunity to do so, there are design opportunities, editorial discussions, proof reading including technical/specification as well as many other areas that will all need attending to. The more people that become involved the better, I personally don’t like exclusivity, it amounts to exclusion which is never the way to go. The community aspect of its origins should then be reflected in its creation. The final, proofed copy would be submitted to a Ed, Leon and any others that need to see it first and then it would go live after approval (though I would expect/hope that those who need to would see things as it was being collated). The magazine would belong to this site if they would like it to, if not then to this community, there are a number of ways to go with ownership.
In relation to copyright, I would suggest Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. In brief, all content may not be altered or used for commercial purposes and any use must clearly state who the copyright owner is. It’s more complicated than that but it is the strictest of the CC licences. Submissions would be on this CC basis. There would be an element of trust with regards to model releases and suchlike.
With regards to insurance and lawyers, at this early stage I don’t believe this is necessary. I would certainly agree that there may come a point where this does become necessary, but as a group we would need to be learning to walk before we can run and the initial goal should be simply to see what we can achieve and whether our efforts are then deserving of putting out there into the wider world.
With regards to digital, I see it as a place to celebrate analogue, not attack digital. I also don’t expect for the mere mention of digital to be banned. There is a lot of crossover and if it’s relevant and useful there should be a place for it, such as analogue lenses that work on digital cameras or using a digital camera instead of a light meter.
The above is just my thinking, other peoples will help immensely as I have learned through the years that there are occasions when I’m not always right!
I would be happy to carry out editorial duties to get things up and running, but would be just as happy to help out where I can if somebody else is better suited.
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That all sounds fine Verian. Very good actually.
Just one point ... If the mag is to be a filmwasters mag, it should follow our position on digital: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.0 (http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.0)
In short, anything goes as long as it originates on film/ traditional silver based imaging (paper etc). Digital printing, post editing and so on is all fine. Camera gear type discussions would need to be focused on film cameras. But, as you say, using digi to aid the trad process is fine ... Maybe photographing negs as an alternative to scanning, or your example as a lightmeter.
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If I can contribute in away way, I will do so gladly.
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This is a very good idea, I think, especially considering the abundance of talent that frequents this place. I'm happy to help out/contribute where I can.
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YEAH, WOT YOU ALL SAID :-)
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Does anyone own the rights to the name "Camera Work" ;)
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Well, I could write up a few things. I've been known to have a good pen.
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I'd love to contribute. If done properly this could be a terrific project.
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WOW! What a great idea. The magazine would be a great tool for those of us learning or relearning
film and film cameras.
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I'd be happy to contribute or help out if I can. I'm an English teacher so I might be useful as a proofreader.
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No issues from my side either, but a number of clear points need to be made (to be confirmed by the other site owners too):
o As mentioned above, it has to be and always be non-commercial. This does not just mean not-for-profit, but also no money changes hands. Not for ads, not for contributions, not for unit sales.
o Use of the filmwasters name, logo, or anything else (such as submitted work here - photographs or words), is your tacit agreement to that.
Not that we've got vast legal resources at hand, but certainly I suggest these would be the minimum terms for a magazine under our name. We are after all about contributions and creative driven ideas.
Having been involved in numerous similar ventures I can only add they are an enormous amount of work, and as soon as money becomes involved there's always one greedy hand trying to get into the money jar. Skj.
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I have no problems contributing and helping. I'm a crap dry boring writer that's why I contributed lots to the non-commerical camera-wiki.org project! ;D
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Having been very involved with the creation and design of Lightleaks magazine with Skorj (and working in magazine publishing for 10 years), I can tell you that making any kind of money from this will be verrrry difficult. I'd imagine that as long as those involved in the creation and content don't expect to get paid, then it might be successful to a degree, at least as something to enioy and be proud of.
I would suggest that quarterly would be the best release option to reduce deadline stress and allow for more time to gather quality material. I don't see any problem using a print on demand service if people want to pay for hardcopies, as long as it is at cost without profit (or any money goes towards website maintanance since we all use this site for free but someone is obviously paying for it).
It sounds like a good idea as long as it doesn't go sour, as these things tend to do when people disagree or expect something in return.
"Filmwasters" is the most obvious and fitting name for the magazine.
I don't mind helping out a bit, but I've got too many other things in my life now to be as involved as I was with Lightleaks!
Someone asked about the name Camera Works....wasn't that the name of Steiglitz's magazine? ???
Content is pretty easy. Some photo sections (themed?), maybe a specific photographer focus, some how tos, a camera section, reviews, etc. even excluding digital, there are tons of film subjects to cover, both for noobs and the experienced. Certainly themes from the website could be carried over (interesting camera #, what did you shoot, etc.).
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Question: Should this even be a magazine or will a more basic zine type publication be more suitable?
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I wouldn't mind a zine type. anyhow, much good ideas are written here (even copyright got brought up -great!). but if it would be as skorj writes: then we would have to hand it out for free, even stand for the shipping ourselves? or maybe I'm reading this No-money-changing-hands totally wrong? I would gladly be corrected if so :)
"o As mentioned above, it has to be and always be non-commercial. This does not just mean not-for-profit, but also no money changes hands. Not for ads, not for contributions, not for unit sales."
anyhow, I would like to contribute with some camera reviews, I've meant to start writing some for a long time :)
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I don't think it should be a physical paper publication. Pdf as suggested.
I'd be very keen to contribute too. I've written for black and white photography magazine in the past. Would be keen to do the printers art type articles again - see here:
http://leontaylorphotography.tumblr.com/articles (http://leontaylorphotography.tumblr.com/articles)
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I don't want to seem like a wet blanket or spoil any potential here but what exactly is the desire to launch an online photo gig? Would content consist of images, discussion, gear, etc,? I think the website here pretty much covers all of those areas already, only scattered about. Are you looking for something to call your own to operate and maintain with a different format as far as a community, appearance, etc?
You literally have to be Superman to run anything online where one would have to commit nearly 100% to keep it operating and interesting without, as Sean put it, going sour. A person or persons would really have to devote a good amount of time and extra effort to get it started and keep the boat floating. Now a days everyone and their pets work full schedules...or experience unexpected circumstances or situations where it would cause one to lax or not find time and not be consistent... and the list goes on. An example of that is here on Filmwasters where some of the sites owners have nearly vanished because of new things in their lives or what have you. And with that, highlight's of this website such as guest features, collaborations, etc., have decreased greatly. I'm not knocking anybody or pointing fingers mind you.... just an example of how things can die down in time because of. Why not just make the effort instead in juicing up the joint here as it once was with those great guest features and collaborations and camera gear, etc. or make new features on a more consistent manner, or even a new look. Hell I don't know, I just woke up and started spewing at the mouth like I'm Jessie Ventura. Shit, I haven't even picked up my Holga since 1999 so I'm one to talk, huh. But that could change surly. In any event, you have my support.
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Yes, great idea. Happy to write something badly spelt and ill-informed. But dry all the same.
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Beck, from my perspective there are a number of reasons to do this. I would say that there will be many differing opinions of its validity, its purpose, its direction etc. and none of those opinions is necessarily wrong or right. Without listing everything that I can think of, I see it as an opportunity to create something together that is more focused than a forum (I am not knocking forums, I love ‘em!) and gives people the opportunity to pass on the wealth of knowledge that they have, in an organised and structured way that is easily accessible and shareable. Some of us need a goal to finish projects, or even start them, having an end point of inclusion in this venture might make somebody dust down that camera that has been sitting unused and go out shooting to create a photo essay or similar, not necessarily the best example but I’m sure you get the idea. In my experience contributors also take extra care when submitting content and with the benefit of editorial assistance, an experience that will be new to many, can produce really good pieces.
To give an example, I have quite often seen a camera mentioned and will then google it, this will take me to several different places looking for sample images, tips, trick, pitfalls, prices etc. and having this all together in one article would be really useful for me, and I‘m sure for others. We all have different levels of knowledge and experience, sometimes there are threads (not just on this forum) where I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about, but I know there are people who can explain it to me well so that I can understand it, such as Leon’s printers art articles. I’m new to printing (my first should be this weekend) and would love to have a read of that and know where it is if I need to refer back to it again.
With regards to the commitment and hours, you are absolutely right, but I can assure everybody that we will produce a first issue, that’s a commitment I am happy to make and follow through on. If its reception is negative then that will be the decision point as to whether we try to improve and go for a second issue. If the will to do it isn’t there then we have lost nothing by trying.
Nothing above is directed at anybody in a negative way, I’m just trying to answer points raised. Sorry if it comes across otherwise anywhere.
Speaking of which, no money changing hands anywhere, absolutely, this is one of the prime reasons for .PDF as there are negligible costs and it can still be used on phones, tablets etc.
I think we should just have a go at it, see what we come up with and try and enjoy the whole thing, nothing ventured nothing gained (I am going to run out of clichés soon). Quite a few people have posted that they would like to help in different ways and that’s brilliant, and there’s good experience to draw on as well, so unless there are any objections I will press forward and start to contact a few people and begin to get things organised.
If I’ve missed anything please shout up.
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I agree with Beck. Putting out a PDF only magazine is pretty much like putting up a summary of the website content. Sites like Lulu, etc. allow you to provide a print version and nobody makes money except for Lulu if you want. Buyer pays for shipping, etc. It's not cheap for the buyer, but at least it is an option. Usually they allow a free PDF version (or they have in the past). Not that I'm against a PDF, but a lot of people like actual magazines, particularly art magazines. I know I don't particularly care for PDF magazines and tend to just browse through quickly and then delete from my tablet. I still flip through old printed magazines. Also, seems kind of against some natural rule to put out a magazine on analog photography in only a digital format. But whatever you guys want.
Agree that it will be lots of work for someone. I probably won't like whatever design someone comes up with, so I will just keep my mouth shut about that part! But I don't mind submitting the ocassional article. I think that longevity will be the biggest question...first issue, great; second issue maybe takes a little longer; third issue? Long-term commitment to what is basically a free product produced for fun is understandably difficult as people are busy in real life. I will try to go with the flow whatever is decided...not going to start making waves before it is even off the ground.
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I'm up for this, if tasteful nudes are acceptable content (that's all I do these days).
Ideas for general content (each issue):
My favourite used camera for £50/€60/$80
My most obscure camera
My oldest camera which is still in use
My 10 best snaps
New film profile
New camera profile (Kickstarter type of thing - not the latest Canon/Nikon)
Alternative processes
Darkroom tips for beginners
Darkroom masterclass
(Famous) photographer profile and possibly interview
Best photography website I've come across recently is...
I started off with 'my stuff' in the hope that a few people on here will write about something they are passionate about and know well. That would save on research time and I hope, produce content quite rapidly, on a range of topics.
Another suggestion is to theme each issue. So rather than people sending in their latest holiday snaps shot on Velvia on a sunny day, people can either trawl through their files or shoot something new with the chance of publication. Themes could be landscapes, the urban environment, portraits, street photography, MF & LF, toys and miniature formats, extending perhaps to concepts such as form, space, separation, decay. At a rate of 2 mags a year, that's the rest of the decade sorted out.
Hope this helps and good luck with the idea.
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I agree with Beck. Putting out a PDF only magazine is pretty much like putting up a summary of the website content. Sites like Lulu, etc. allow you to provide a print version and nobody makes money except for Lulu if you want. Buyer pays for shipping, etc. It's not cheap for the buyer, but at least it is an option. Usually they allow a free PDF version (or they have in the past). Not that I'm against a PDF, but a lot of people like actual magazines, particularly art magazines. I know I don't particularly care for PDF magazines and tend to just browse through quickly and then delete from my tablet. I still flip through old printed magazines. Also, seems kind of against some natural rule to put out a magazine on analog photography in only a digital format. But whatever you guys want.
Agree that it will be lots of work for someone. I probably won't like whatever design someone comes up with, so I will just keep my mouth shut about that part! But I don't mind submitting the ocassional article. I think that longevity will be the biggest question...first issue, great; second issue maybe takes a little longer; third issue? Long-term commitment to what is basically a free product produced for fun is understandably difficult as people are busy in real life. I will try to go with the flow whatever is decided...not going to start making waves before it is even off the ground.
If somebody wants a printed version then they can upload and print it (but can't sell it), the CC license allows that, or we could probably make it available from somewhere on-line with no mark up, there are lots of options and nothing is actually finalised.
On the subject of longevity, it is certainly an issue. I did three years of unpaid football program editing and layout, going to print up to three times a week, so I know what's involved commitment wise, but also know that after three years I was VERY grateful when I could step down for somebody else to take over.
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I'm up for this, if tasteful nudes are acceptable content (that's all I do these days).
Ideas for general content (each issue):
My favourite used camera for £50/€60/$80
My most obscure camera
My oldest camera which is still in use
My 10 best snaps
New film profile
New camera profile (Kickstarter type of thing - not the latest Canon/Nikon)
Alternative processes
Darkroom tips for beginners
Darkroom masterclass
(Famous) photographer profile and possibly interview
Best photography website I've come across recently is...
I started off with 'my stuff' in the hope that a few people on here will write about something they are passionate about and know well. That would save on research time and I hope, produce content quite rapidly, on a range of topics.
Another suggestion is to theme each issue. So rather than people sending in their latest holiday snaps shot on Velvia on a sunny day, people can either trawl through their files or shoot something new with the chance of publication. Themes could be landscapes, the urban environment, portraits, street photography, MF & LF, toys and miniature formats, extending perhaps to concepts such as form, space, separation, decay. At a rate of 2 mags a year, that's the rest of the decade sorted out.
Hope this helps and good luck with the idea.
Thanks, good ideas. Copied, pasted, saved :)
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I know I'd really like it if it were hosted by a place that does the on demand printing. It would be cheaper than having it printed at Staples.
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I would be interested if the magazine had some branding identity. Working in graphic design I really see how a nicely designed and presented publication can have credibility based off it's design.
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I know I'd really like it if it were hosted by a place that does the on demand printing. It would be cheaper than having it printed at Staples.
This is a possibility. Any suggestions for a good quality, value for money site most welcome.
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I would be interested if the magazine had some branding identity. Working in graphic design I really see how a nicely designed and presented publication can have credibility based off it's design.
The whole thing will be done in Comic Sans, it'll look fantastic!
No? OK, we'll try and make it look good for sure, any input/assistance you might be able to give would be most welcome.
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i have been spying this since kick off and
I kind of agree with the points Becky raised.
My first impression on the idea was - why?
everything which could potentially be published in the magazine
could potentially be found >here< on FW by creating another
tab - Magazine.
everyone who wants to could print and share it as they wish
to promote film wasting
the "what did you shoot this weekend" book was a big success
the results were fantastic but it took IMO vast amounts of
effort/co-ordinating and time to get launched.
my thoughts FWIW
:)
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free PDF and able to get it printed somewhere decent? I like this combo :)
Some of us need a goal to finish projects, or even start them
sad, true, funny and I can recognize my own behaviour in it.
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The whole thing will be done in Comic Sans, it'll look fantastic!
>:(
haha
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everything which could potentially be published in the magazine
could potentially be found >here< on FW by creating another
tab - Magazine.
Righto. I'm finding it a little confusing too as to why the Filmwasters brand rather than your own? Partly because I think that stickler is lodged inside my brain. I never want to run the risk of upsetting the owners or knowing they secretly cringed at a layout or content or my glossy nudes and so on. And getting approval from each Sensei for everything is a bit of a turn off for me. No offense. I am all for that Magazine Tab as suggested and lean my vote towards that instead. Sorry. But will the FW owners want to take on that task? I'd like to think so. Blur Magazine is a nice example of that tab mentioned and the site itself has a nice taste to it. I'd rather see that tab and new ideas and old features be brought back to life here on FW on a monthly basis as before, when the opportunity and tools are already present. I know I have been absent for some time by no fault but my own for various reasons, but things look good in the forecast for myself and want to indulge once again. I finally got my scanner working again and it gave me a spark to want to shoot again. I think.
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A magazine would certainly be interesting. But I am a "do it for real or don't do it at all" kind of guy. If an attractive, quality product can be done in an organized, timely manner, I say try it at least once. Nothing is really lost except for the time put into it, which is given voluntarily.
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So it boils down to: Should it be a Filmwasters branded project or not? The advantage is that you instantly have a big pool of people you could tap into for content (or at least better than just being a completely new magazine). The downside is that it could potentially generate a lot of bad blood. And if it peters of? I don't really see a problem in that.
As far as the extra "Magazine" forum goes: Well there's the "Articles" and "Photo Essays" forums already and they don't see that much use. A magazine might actually get people off their butts (with the deadlines and the potentially higher "standards") to actually write something or finish their project. At least that's how it would work on me.
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And I agree: It would be great if we could get physical copies. I don't really like reading PDFs on the web. After all that's what website are for (and they do a much better job). Obviously print on demand is more expensive than getting X copies printed at once, but they avoid the whole money issue.
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Well, the last newspaper of that type Vignette - went back online after finding it too expensive to print and distribute the newspaper version.
And anyway, if you want a hard-copy of pdf, you can always print it out!
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You do make a very strong point there Beck .... And the site was originally supposed to be like an online magazine with monthly guest gallery, articles and so on. Life just took that away from us, Susan's time was increasingly focused on her own work and maintaining that market, ed 's wonderful family came along, Skorj Damion and I got buried in work, and so on. Gradually, the only thing left was the forum. We'd love to get the podcasts back on a regular basis, but it just ain't gonna happen right now.
So I don't mind the magazine idea, I think it might get some momentum going again around here ... Provided I don't have to do too much for it, I'm a little busy right now :-)
PS superb to have you back and posting Beck ... We've missed you :-)
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Should that magazine work there is of course the possibility of reusing content (maybe just a bit later?) on other parts of the site (like the guest gallery). But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
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Call me old skool, but I feel the printed word on paper is considered to have a much greater value than when printed on a screen.
Besides, if I get texts published, I can always add that to my CV :P
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For me, a large part of the joy of film photography is that it is a series of processes. Shoot, develop, print. While I enjoy looking at images on a monitor, I feel that the series of processes is at its rightful conclusion when the image is printed. A good photo should be printed.
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I think I've read every word on this so far and one word is missing in my view "readership".
Who is this for? Who's going to read it and what would THEY want.
If this is just being aimed at existing Filmwasters then I think I'm strictly with Becks. Getting some regular features back onto the site would be far preferable than producing something completely separate - in any format. Maybe the onus for getting these features back on the site could be farmed out to those keen to contribute - maybe we need some independent editors for the site and take some load off the owners.
If this magazine is to be aimed at non-members then someone needs to do some market research to find out who's going to read it, what format they would want it in and what content would they like to see. And I would also then have to ask the question - why?
I think the biggest downside of all of this is that it may take away from the present site. People may not contribute so much, preferring to contribute to the magazine.
Just my 2 cents...
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I must admit that this is a double-edged sword...
There's got to be a way to get both to work without killing each other.
As for readership, just post a few links on a few flickr groups and get Mike Raso to talk about it and you're in business ;)
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As for readership, just post a few links on a few flickr groups and get Mike Raso to talk about it and you're in business ;)
Getting interest isn't the issue. There's plenty of film based groups out there that could be a source readers but you have to ask what they want if you're aiming this at them because if you don't get it right in issue 1 then issue 2 won't happen. And you have to offer more than can be found elsewhere. There's already an awful lot of information out there on film cameras and their use.
It just seems to me this is an instance of doing something for the sake of it with no real thought as to why, or who it's for.
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Just thought I'd throw this in too.
Earlier this evening I wanted a recipe for a particular dish (mother-in-law coming to dinner...). I have about 6 feet of shelf space filled with cookery books which probably contain a number of examples of what I was looking for, but what did I do, I used Google. It would have to be something very specialised that I couldn't find with Google that would make me start ploughing through my books.
Hope you see what I'm saying.
OK. I'm going to shut-up now.
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Perhaps thats what is really behind this drive and desire....the lack of FW owner pariticpation and keeping up with the chores on getting new material in here like it once thrived....so maybe some are wanting or crying out subconsiouly or cryptically or what have you and wanting to get some sort of fire started on their own because of the stale air and dead features via FW ?! There I said it.....probly not but ill puff on it more and say I have always said in the past bring on some folks who can take over the wheel and drive for a spell while the FW crew do their thang elsewere. i looked goddam forward to guest galleries podcasts and so on then when the goose was laying eggs.....but when it started slowing down and a month turned into several months, i lost interest and my attention span went elsewhere. i need maximum stimulation and you can expect water works gallore from me when it is a party.
I have slways made an effort for collaboration ideas here and there but leon was quick to remind me no no nooo! i ask put some people in charge as mods or admins and allow them to soup up those features we all miss rather than its mine mine mine!!! id be stoked to reign as head mistress of the collabs section or guest gallaries.
Is dat Deja Vu parfume I am wearing?
Ill admit a magazine in my hands would be gold and now that my taste has evolved I would want something so sophitcated and high end that it would spin heads around. But of course it looks good in my brain. Now Im all confused all over again.
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The last thing I wanted this to be was in any way divisive, so perhaps there is a middle ground which better suits more people than the current suggestion. I’d be quite happy to take a different approach and keep everything here on this site, such as the magazine tab idea, or even to direct my energies to picking up sections that exists and have become fallow recently, or new sections, I honestly don’t mind. At some point in the future this may grow side shoots, such as a book for one of the projects, or a themed magazine based on the same, it could be anything.
Or I could pipe down and do nothing, if that’s what people prefer I won’t be offended. Apologies if I appeared bullish at any point, I do like to plough on with things and sometimes this can come across in a different way than intended.
If a consensus of opinion can be reached then go with that, maybe one of those polls?
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Verian - if I'd known that you were going to keep my ideas for topics, I'd have put more effort into them.
There are now many views circulating on this topic and most, to a degree, have some merit, even though they are contradictory. I can see both sides. But I personally favour the mag, printed.
An idea. Pick a date. 31st December sounds good to me. (I love giving people an option and then telling them which they want.) Those who would like to submit stuff, send it in by the cut-off date. Most of us have work on file we could submit anyway. Others will use it as an excuse to shoot something fresh. Have a look at both the quantity and quality of the submissions. That will give the editorial panel an idea of whether they have sufficient material for half an issue, a full issue or several issues.
I'd be happy to submit on the off-chance that this goes ahead. If in early January the submissions 'feel' right, immediately announce the next copy date as 30th June (working on your idea of 2 issues pa). It doesn't matter that it may take until 29th June to get the launch issue away, the editorial panel will have lots of material from which to fashion the second edition.
I see this working (or not) by the constant flow of quality material, rather than anything else, with the exception of volunteer manpower.
One last thought. To keep the mag fresh, images should not have been shown on the FW website before. That will achieve two things - provide an impetus to submit your best work to the mag and for non-submitters to look at the mag as every picture and every article will be new to them. It will not just be the forum re-hashed.
Now, if you'll all excuse me, I'm going to go and get a cup of tea and then return to the day job. I'll be back at lunchtime, London time.
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submit your best work to the mag and for non-submitters to look at the mag as every picture and every article will be new to them
= death of the forum...
I know, I said I'd shut-up but, really...
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In relation to copyright, I would suggest Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. In brief, all content may not be altered or used for commercial purposes and any use must clearly state who the copyright owner is. It’s more complicated than that but it is the strictest of the CC licences. Submissions would be on this CC basis. There would be an element of trust with regards to model releases and suchlike.
This is where the stumbling blocks would be. Without copyright protection, you are going to limit the photographers who would contribute work. I know I, nor any of the photographers I work with, would ever use creative commons that allow others to use your work. Regardless of whether they give you attribution or not doesn't matter. We all use copyrights. People should not be able to use your work just for attribution, they should have to ask first and get your agreement for any usage. Just because the magazine is non-profit, it doesn't mean the content should be able to be stolen and used by others. In my opinion it should be clearly stated that every photograph and article is copyrighted. Period.
I have magazine publishing experience and I don't know of any magazine anywhere who would publish without ©.
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The only thing this license allows is for people to share the finished product (and not make any money from it): http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/ (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/) Which is what people will do anyway when you offer a free PDF download.
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Well, am I late to the show, or what! I started by being in favour and then Beck arrived (lovely to see you) and I was in favour of what she said. I guess I am largely in favour of both. The PDF publication with an option to print sounds cool. Not sure what I could offer given my aptitude for doing nothing. The flip is a more active site with podcasts and all that goes with that. Kind of win win, really. I guess wherever the momentum is.
As for Beck as Queen of the Colabs. That made my pulse race from my hotel bed :)
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submit your best work to the mag and for non-submitters to look at the mag as every picture and every article will be new to them
= death of the forum...
I know, I said I'd shut-up but, really...
Sorry, Peter, but I don't agree. The UK antiques trade & art galleries sell stuff 52 weeks of the year. But they keep their very best stuff for the 4-or 5-day prestige fairs in London. It's all about editing (in the real sense of the word - not the PS misuse) & holding the very best work back for the greatest impact, to reach the largest audience. Many people regularly submit to the weekend thread here. But if they kept their two best shots of the year back and submitted them to the mag, would the weekend thread noticeably suffer? I don't think so.
And if the mag simply featured the best of the weekend thread, I don't think many people would look at it for long. People want to see fresh work. The two main London auction houses always get excited when something is fresh to market and never been seen in public before. These lots regularly exceed upper estimates. Things need to be fresh (even if antiques or old masters) to excite.
IMHO.
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gothamtomato
Like most publications, magazines can have multiple types of copyrights and contain creative commons, but of course the photos can still belong to the respected photographers who maintain their own copyrights, and might not want to use a cc. Photos being submitted release the usage right for inclusion in that publication. There are various levels of cc types with non-commercial, no-dev, etc. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/ (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/)
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submit your best work to the mag and for non-submitters to look at the mag as every picture and every article will be new to them
= death of the forum...
I know, I said I'd shut-up but, really...
Sorry, Peter, but I don't agree. The UK antiques trade & art galleries sell stuff 52 weeks of the year. But they keep their very best stuff for the 4-or 5-day prestige fairs in London. It's all about editing (in the real sense of the word - not the PS misuse) & holding the very best work back for the greatest impact, to reach the largest audience. Many people regularly submit to the weekend thread here. But if they kept their two best shots of the year back and submitted them to the mag, would the weekend thread noticeably suffer? I don't think so.
And if the mag simply featured the best of the weekend thread, I don't think many people would look at it for long. People want to see fresh work. The two main London auction houses always get excited when something is fresh to market and never been seen in public before. These lots regularly exceed upper estimates. Things need to be fresh (even if antiques or old masters) to excite.
IMHO.
Somewhat different circumstances I would say. If I were to think of submitting my 'best' pictures to the twice yearly mag, I'd be saving up ALL my best pictures for six months so that I could then make a choice of which to submit or maybe, let the editor decide which to accept. But would probably depend on how submissions were organised I guess.
Either way, it's diluting the forum.
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"Editorial committee"?? Sorry................??
The beauty of the current FW Forum, flawed and loosely controlled as it may be, is (at least to me) a thing of beauty. It's one of the strengths of FW and part of the reason I'm still enthusiastic about the site. I think Beck's probably right when she says we may need to loosen the reins when it comes to increasing the volume of collaborations, guest galleries, etc. Perhaps that's all that's needed to get more folk back on board and submitting more frequently?
Going down the route of magazine publication - particularly if there's a process of submission of photos for editorial approval to decide upon which photos, articles / editorials to include and exclude will (in my opinion) almost inevitably lead to accusations of elitism and be very divisive.
Every one of us on here, so far at least, is able to post pretty much whatever subject / format we want - so long as it originates on film. If we go down the route of filtering out "unworthy" pictures, my guess is that those whose work is rejected will simply give up and/or go elsewhere.
I'm not "anti" the idea of a magazine - but I would definitely not want to submit photos for someone else to decide whether they are suitable. That would seem to be a recipe for the formation of "cliques" rather than broadening the appeal of Filmwasters to the widest audience possible.
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Late - A mag and a forum are different beasts. A forum is as close to 'live' as it's possible to get. Here's a snap I took today, this weekend, this week etc. A mag has got to be more considered, otherwise what's the point?
Life is a selection process. Why should a magazine submission be different? It's analog(ous) to showing the world my latest roll of 36 (hell, no!) from the lab and creating a website. They are both my work, but my portfolio or website is distilled to the best available at the particular time of creating it.
I now only shoot nudes. If the editorial panel or the mods of FW decide there will be a 'no nudes' policy, I'll still follow the mag avidly, even though they wouldn't accept my work. To turn my back on it would simply reduce the amount of enjoyment I get from this site.
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Late - A mag and a forum are different beasts. A forum is as close to 'live' as it's possible to get. Here's a snap I took today, this weekend, this week etc. A mag has got to be more considered, otherwise what's the point?
Life is a selection process. Why should a magazine submission be different? It's analog(ous) to showing the world my latest roll of 36 (hell, no!) from the lab and creating a website. They are both my work, but my portfolio or website is distilled to the best available at the particular time of creating it.
I now only shoot nudes. If the editorial panel or the mods of FW decide there will be a 'no nudes' policy, I'll still follow the mag avidly, even though they wouldn't accept my work. To turn my back on it would simply reduce the amount of enjoyment I get from this site.
Zapsnaps,
A mag and a forum are indeed very different. If we were talking about producing another "Black and White Photography" style magazine (whether it's the UK or USA version is irrelevant) I would be with you 100% - but, unless I've misunderstood the intention, I don't think that's the route down which we're headed.
My "concern" (for the want of a better word) is that an FW magazine might cause a split - i.e. a number of FW's would see the magazine as their preferred means of promoting their work, whereas the rest would remain Forum only. There may, of course, be some that would try to have a foot in both camps but it could be an "either / or" situation.
I'm not sure I agree that "life is a selection process" without having to qualify that statement. For me life is about opportunities and options and choices and also about mutual support and fellowship. As I've said already, I'm definitely not anti-magazine and I would support creation of one. However, I wouldn't want to do so if there was a significant risk that it could have a detrimental impact on the Forum or what FW stands for.
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I have slways made an effort for collaboration ideas here and there but leon was quick to remind me no no nooo! i ask put some people in charge as mods or admins and allow them to soup up those features we all miss rather than its mine mine mine!!!.
Beck - this site was never about community effort ...it was never meant to be a co-operative. The premise is/was simple. The five of us put up the cash and time ourselves to fund and run the site, and we make the decisions. We always considered all ideas that people sent us for collabs, then picked the one we liked the most - the collabs are/ were picked on a turn-by-turn basis, so it was never just me saying no, it was who ever was due to pick on that occasion.
It is Mine-Mine-Mine bacause it costs us a lot of time, money and effort to keep the place running. I take your point about perhaps it being time to share this load now ... I'll discuss it with the others and see what they think.
My health is preventing me from being involved in photography at all right now, and you know about how busy the rest are. SO it makes sense to ask people to help us out ... I'm sure we'll be in touch soon about it.
L.
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Late - I agree with you!
As I said a few post back, I can see both sides of the argument, and I do yours, too.
By 'life being a selection process' I mean that, despite my best efforts, my employer chose me, as did my wife and friends. I too selected to accept the options available. I agree about fellowship and support, but that's also not without selection. I favour charities supporting people rather than animals, for instance. I have selected this site as a place to spend quite a good deal of time poking around and trying to learn more.
Selection is like connaisseurship or choice. It's about preference and allocation of resources.
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Leon - sorry to hear that it's your health that's kept you away recently - I just presumed it was the day job.
Hope that things improve for you
David
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I'm very sorry to hear that Leon! I hope you will get better soon.
As far as helping out goes: I do web stuff as my day job so I'd be glad to help out that way.
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My 2 cents: if it is going to be printed, then a "magazine" is not a good idea, to put it frankly.
If you want to print something people will get interested in, it basically has to be less disposable and more focused than a magazine is. Make it a cohesive, detailed book for instance. Pick a subject or a theme, do it great justice and put out a solid work.
That being said, it would be awesome if the site here got back into gear and running like it used to be. I know that it can be hard to accept when it's time to bring in some new "crew" to accomplish something with your "baby", but... sometimes that's what your baby needs to succeed and grow.
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Hi Verian,
If I may give you my 5 cents I would say go ahead with the magazine, the worst thing can happen is... well, I do not se any ¨worst thing can happen¨. You are receiving inputs from all directions, which may discourage you or distract you from your original idea, but I would take that as a sign of the interest your idea has attracted; what it matters is that you have with you the administrators green light (at least initial ::)).
I was involved in the making of the fw´s book and I want to believe that some good ideas came throughout the development process. As a starting point I would ask who really is interested, and ready to contribute to the making of, and then create a separate threat in the FW´s index with limited access (if the adms agree with it, that is :'(). That would be the place for brainstorming, assigning tasks, etc. The main forum sometimes can be too rich for that.
Hope I helped in any way, and remember I can be of high value for the spanish edition ;)
Carlos.
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I think that for a magazine format to be successful without hurting the website, it would have to contain stuff you don't normally see on the site. I personally have a few ideas that could prove interesting and not in any way threatening to the site's content.
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The only way I can see this is as a retrospective collation or summation of what happens on this site as a PDF. Twice a year would seem ample to reflect the range and diversity.
I'd probably download and keep copies, though I doubt I would print them.
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Hi there. Just a quick post to address a couple of specific points before I get shouted at for not tidying up the kitchen:
- The last collaboration gallery we ran received 7 (I think) submissions. I do understand the logic behind cause-effect-chickens-eggs and lack of active participation from the site founders potentially causing lack of interest from the site's regular users, but it is definitely a 2 way street and getting 7 entries for a collaboration gallery doesn't exactly make me want to dive straight into another one. It would be nice to see bigger involvement in the next one.
- As usual I'm deeply touched by the interest and investment in Filmwasters shown by everyone who's posted in this thread. Whatever the outcome of this micro issue, it's great that you all care enough to pipe up and it's served as a good wake-up call to those of us who run the site.
- Beck: it's great to have you back with us and you're right that the contributions from the 5 of us have tailed off in the extreme over the last few years. We'll try to get more involved from now on.
The domain hosting fees for FW are due in the next few weeks and it will be a pleasure to pay them again knowing that there's still so much goodwill towards the place.
Thanks!
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The domain hosting fees for FW are due in the next few weeks and it will be a pleasure to pay them again knowing that there's still so much goodwill towards the place.
Thanks!
OK, maybe a little OT, but how about setting up a link where those that want to can place a condition-free donation toward hosting (and other costs). I might be alone in this thought but it would allow anyone who wants to contribute as little or as much as they want to the kitty - (or not at all - no big whoop). I know I've been quite sporadic of late but I genuinely 'puffy heart' Filmwasters.
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The domain hosting fees for FW are due in the next few weeks and it will be a pleasure to pay them again knowing that there's still so much goodwill towards the place.
Thanks!
OK, maybe a little OT, but how about setting up a link where those that want to can place a condition-free donation toward hosting (and other costs). I might be alone in this thought but it would allow anyone who wants to contribute as little or as much as they want to the kitty - (or not at all - no big whoop). I know I've been quite sporadic of late but I genuinely 'puffy heart' Filmwasters.
Good idea Ann, you are not alone on this ;)
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The domain hosting fees for FW are due in the next few weeks and it will be a pleasure to pay them again knowing that there's still so much goodwill towards the place.
Thanks!
OK, maybe a little OT, but how about setting up a link where those that want to can place a condition-free donation toward hosting (and other costs). I might be alone in this thought but it would allow anyone who wants to contribute as little or as much as they want to the kitty - (or not at all - no big whoop). I know I've been quite sporadic of late but I genuinely 'puffy heart' Filmwasters.
I'd be happy to offer a contribution.
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Nope. No contributions necessary....nor was I hinting, but thanks very much for the offers.
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I would be happy to personally line my own pockets with your donations! 8)
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Well... all the same. If someone knows how to setup one of those sites where you can contribute via paypal, I'm all in.
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OK, Sean....you're banned. >:( 8) :) ;)
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OK, Sean....you're banned. >:( 8) :) ;)
Ok, now it´s getting interesting 8)
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You just create a Donate button on Paypal and paste it someplace. But I'm sure you knew that. 8)
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It's just that the guys don't want the tax man knocking on their door :P
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Nobody prevents anybody from having a pdf printed by a "copyshop" or a more professional print service. Since members here are from all over the world a pdf minimizes probs with distribution, payment, shipping, customs etc. The most important reason why I don't participate at the "Share The Love" thing. Just my 2 cents.
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PS: for me the idea of a Filmwasters (sic!) magazine is very attractive. I'm rather new here and can't screen thousands of posts from the past and I highly doubt that the well established members here can. Who doesn't want it mustn't care for it. So what's the prob if only the bosses here say go! and some guys want to do the job? If it fails nothing is lost exept the time of the authors.
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so maybe some are wanting or crying out subconsiouly or cryptically or what have you and wanting to get some sort of fire started on their own because of the stale air and dead features via FW ?!
PS: for me the idea of a Filmwasters (sic!) magazine is very attractive. I'm rather new here and can't screen thousands of posts from the past and I highly doubt that the well established members here can. Who doesn't want it mustn't care for it. So what's the prob if only the bosses here say go! and some guys want to do the job? If it fails nothing is lost exept the time of the authors.
now I want both. I magazine is for many reasons exciting but in the end. the forum and other things around it is what I like about this place. I've not the same time nowadays to hunt the forums all day and night so something I could hold in my hand and pick up once in a while (like my old light leaks mags) would be nice.
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Dear Filmwasters....thanks for all your input and comments. It's been a really good read and lots of points have been raised which have got us thinking. We've also been given a wake up call as to the need to reinvigorate the site & we're already discussing how best to do this. We're also discussing (or will be) how best to implement the magazine idea with Verian via email and will probably start a separate board up here soon once we've agreed what form it will take.
Personally I see no harm at all in having a separate part of the site which is a self-contained 'best of Filmwasters + some new stuff' and which gets updated twice a year and which can be downloaded as a PDF etc. and that's probably the form it will take. I see absolutely no reason why this should dilute the content of, or reduce the activity on the forum.
In the meantime I'm going to lock this thread, so save up any further thoughts on this subject for the new board which we'll open in the next few days once we've had a chat with Verian.
[Other mods: feel free to overrule me and unlock this if you want]