Topic: Help Required - Old 10x8 Negs aren't flat

[Miles]

Hi,

Help required please.

I have a load of old Cinema Foyer stills Negs for "The Queen of the Nile" that are 10x8 and reek of Fixer (vinegar).

They are far from flat.

So ... What's the best way to clean and flatten the badgers ?

Miles ...

[Mike (happyforest)]

Do you know what the film base is?

I am not 100% positive, but the smell maybe indicative of cellulose nitrate film base. The age of the film 1946 is close to the range suggested in this document.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg469.pdf

I am sure others will add their views to this.

Mike

[Bryan]

If they smell like vinegar they likely have vinegar syndrome (VS).  They are in a state of degradation and should be kept away from other film, it's contagious.  Cleaning it may remove some of the image.  There is no cure for VS but leaving it in a well ventilated area can slow the process a little.  There is a lot of information about it on the net, especially in movie film.  I have a few old 8mm movie reels that have it, they are kept at the other end of my house. 

[Miles]

Bloody Hell it's like I've got chuffing Ebola in the house after reading that pdf.

Dammit.

Think it's bound for the coolness of the cave in France. Frightened of putting it anywhere near my scanner too.

It's Vincent Price !

[Francois]

Vinegar syndrome is pretty much fatal for film. AFAIK, the only remedy for it is scanning or duplication before they reach the end of life.
There is no way to flatten them as the film base itself is severely attacked and loosing its flexibility.
At one point, you'll have something like this
http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=8665.msg116319#msg116319

[cs1]

If you want to scan them, you'll need anti newton glas to flatten them (I don't know if it'll hurt the negatives if you try to do so) so that you don't get newton rings in the scanned image. However, anti newton glass in 10x8 is very likely going to cost you a fortune because you'll need two glasses to sandwich the film in between. Apart from that I don't know anything about VS. It sounds scary, though.

[cs1]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg469.pdf

Oops. Now I understand Miles' reaction, I just read the PDF. Maybe you're better off not touching the negatives at all and doing what the HSE suggests...

[Bryan]

They started making Safety Film in the 1930's so it may not be cellulose nitrate.  Usually it will say "Safety Film" in the edge markings, at least it does on movie film.  After they came out with Safety Film cellulose nitrate was used mostly for motion picture film. 

[Francois]

If you want to scan them, you'll need anti newton glas to flatten them (I don't know if it'll hurt the negatives if you try to do so) so that you don't get newton rings in the scanned image. However, anti newton glass in 10x8 is very likely going to cost you a fortune because you'll need two glasses to sandwich the film in between. Apart from that I don't know anything about VS. It sounds scary, though.

If things are close to what mine were like, flattening will be difficult at best...
Also, don't look for AN glass... look for anti-reflection glass from a framing shop. I made a nice holder using some that I got from a frame from a charity shop. I didn't care for the image that was in it, so I just took it all apart and brought the glass to a glass shop to get the edges polished.

[cs1]

Also, don't look for AN glass... look for anti-reflection glass from a framing shop.

Does that work as well? I got either moiré patterns or "contact blotches" (for lack of a better word) with framing glass. I have to admit that I don't recall whether it was anti-reflection or not (which probably is the key factor). Does anti-reflection mean that it has some sort of "rough" surface which then prevents the moiré and blotches?

[Francois]

AR glass does have a slightly pebbled surface (unless we're talking about the super expensive museum glass) .
What I usually do is put the glass on the back and use something to keep the film off the scanner glass.

[Doug Fisher]

There are different grades of anti-Newton glass.  Finer grades of glass are less obvious in terms of the etched surface plus transmit a bit more light although they are more difficult to make and thus more expensive.  Many people sell what they call anti-Newton glass but it really more of a frosted glass or plastic.  Beware of glass that is actually just coated and not actually etched.

With film this old, it very likely has a matte surface on the emulsion side that is "matte enough" to allow you to put that surface down on the scanner bed without creating Newton Rings.  This means one piece of ANR glass on top might be able to suffice.  It is hard to tell though without seeing your particular film and how truly curved it has become.  Remember that if your film is curled to the point it can lift the glass up you can most likely tape the glass down along the edges to flatten the film.

Doug