Topic: More stored in a desert film! (Was: Pulling C41?)

[Indofunk]

The more observant among you may remember that I scored 55 rolls of Ektachrome 100HC for $100 recently. Well, I shot a test roll @50, processed normal C41, and it turned out almost completely black (the leader was slightly blacker). Edge markings illegible because it's so dark. On 2 of the frames, I can barely make out a bit of an image. So my conclusion is that the film is severely fogged.

So how does this sound as a solution? Shoot the HELL out of it, say ISO 6 or something, and then PULL process it a few stops to see if I can avoid the fog from developing. I suppose I could just process normally and then correct for the fog in the scanner or in Lightroom. But pull processing intrigues me because I've never pull processed before. Especially not in C41. How would I even do that? The internet suggests subtracting 30 sec for each stop, so a 2-stop pull would be 2:30 instead of the normal 3:30. But, the Unicolor instructions for pushing say to add 1:10 for a 1-stop push and 1:45 for a 2-stop push. No instructions for pulling. So I'm confused.

Any other solutions for super-fogged film?

[Francois]

There ain't much to do with fogged film.
I know in B&W you can use some benzotriazole as an anti fog... but not in color.
Pulling is just removing some development time to the image but it also reduces everything in proportion...
Also, by using the regular hot developer, I'm afraid you'll just get very uneven development.
If you plan on trying a pulled test film, I would calculate the time for room temp dev and substract from that.

Pulling is not a very common thing. The only time it's pretty much required is when you're dealing with extreme contrast like in night shots on a tripod. Or when using a high contrast film like Arista.EDU 400...

[Indofunk]

Ok, so it sounds like shooting really slow and developing normally to see if I can get an image on top of the fog.

Anyone want 54 rolls of ISO6 Ektachrome? 

[imagesfrugales]

Don`t know much about slide film but I like to use long expired color neg film. They also fog as hell with a dark brown mask. I overexpose for one stop and develop as usual and scan through the fog. Works well and gives the trashy look that I want to get when I use old film. If I want clean negs I use fresh film.

[Indofunk]

I've had some experience with fogged CN film, and you're right that shooting at +1EV and developing and scanning as normal produces decent results. But this stuff (and also some other Ektachrome I posted about before) is well beyond that level of fogging and seems to be completely black no matter how slow I shoot it

[Francois]

The thing with slide film is that no matter how you process it, it still has that 3 stop range.
You could take a roll and do tests with it shooting the same scene and increasing exposure by 1 stop at every frame and then processing like usual.
I think that's probably the most sane approach to the problem.

The thing with pull processing is that everything on the film gets pulled. You might loose some of the fog but you also loose some of the image if you don't overexpose it. And then there's a limit to how much you can fight fog.

The good thing with scanning is that you can pull out an amazing amount of detail from negatives that would normally be destined for the bin.

[hookstrapped]

Maybe stand develop it in a trash bin until trash pickup day?

[Indofunk]

Maybe stand develop it in a trash bin until trash pickup day?

Think I'll do this with all 54 rolls at once 

[imagesfrugales]

You could try to develop bw, maybe with some bromide or salt, before you trash them. Or develop at room temperature, about 10 minutes at 70 °F as a starting point.

[Francois]

Like Reinhold said, you might be able to get away with using it as a b&w film.

BTW, what's the expiry date on those rolls?

[Indofunk]

Like Reinhold said, you might be able to get away with using it as a b&w film.

BTW, what's the expiry date on those rolls?

I'll certainly try a roll as B&W to see if it's acceptable. Can't see the expiry, they're not boxed (except the two rolls of 100X).

So, plan so far:

1. Shoot @6, pull in C41
- done, and drying (I processed at 100F for 2min. I expect uneven development and color shifts, but I'd like to see if the images really are more visible over the base fog)

2. Bracket from EI25 to 6, process normal C41

3. Bracket from EI50 to 6, process HC110 1:100 for 1.5 hrs (stand)

Any other suggestions welcome!

[thatguychad]

On a related note, I accidentally shot a roll of (fresh) 800 ISO at 100. I forgot that the one-time use film canister didn't have DX coding when I put it in my Contax T2. Oops. I've been sitting on the roll until I figure out if I can develop it.

[Indofunk]

You could try to develop bw, maybe with some bromide or salt, before you trash them.

Do you mean bromide or salt in the fixer? Instead of that (since it'll render the fixer useful for only this purpose), can I just fix them for an inordinately long time?

[jharr]

You could try to develop bw, maybe with some bromide or salt, before you trash them.

Do you mean bromide or salt in the fixer? Instead of that (since it'll render the fixer useful for only this purpose), can I just fix them for an inordinately long time?

Potassium Bromide (KBr) in the developer helps with base fog. I use ~1g/L in Caffenol for old films that might be fogged. Reinhold or Francois can probably explain the mechanics of restrainers. I just do as I'm told. 

[Indofunk]

You could try to develop bw, maybe with some bromide or salt, before you trash them.

Do you mean bromide or salt in the fixer? Instead of that (since it'll render the fixer useful for only this purpose), can I just fix them for an inordinately long time?

Potassium Bromide (KBr) in the developer helps with base fog. I use ~1g/L in Caffenol for old films that might be fogged. Reinhold or Francois can probably explain the mechanics of restrainers. I just do as I'm told. 

Oh, this will work well for me then since I process B&W as a one-shot anyways. So ... how much KBr do I add?

Also, relatedly, I found this excerpt about overcoming fog. Seems there's two types of fog: silver fog and color fog, of which silver fog is the more easily removed type. I guess I'll find out which one this is when I develop B&W

[Francois]

That's more Reinhold's domain here. I usually adopt the deal with it in post approach 

[astrobeck]

Yeah, Reinhold would have the best idea on KBr addition.

http://caffenol.blogspot.com/

[Indofunk]

Awaiting Reinhold's sage advice 

[Indofunk]

So, plan so far:

1. Shoot @6, pull in C41
- done, and drying (I processed at 100F for 2min. I expect uneven development and color shifts, but I'd like to see if the images really are more visible over the base fog)

2. Bracket from EI25 to 6, process normal C41

3. Bracket from EI50 to 6, process HC110 1:100 for 1.5 hrs (stand)

Any other suggestions welcome!

Results!

1. Shoot @6, pull in C41.

This actually came out the best so far. I could see some light images on the negs, and the scanner definitely picked them up, although only one or two were actually worth looking at.




2. Bracket from EI25 to 6, process normal C41

Super-dark negs, as expected, and of the bracketed shots, I could barely make out images at the lowest ISO (ie, ISO6). However, my scanner couldn't see a thing, it just gave me a completely white preview. But by zooming in and playing around with the scanner's histogram, I was able to pull out an ISO6 shot. Looks much worse than #1 though.




3. Bracket from EI50 to 6, process HC110 1:100 for 1.5 hrs (stand)

Absolutely black negs. I can't see anything, and my most powerful light (still, admittedly, a consumer-grade lamp) couldn't penetrate the negs. No example because it's just not worth it


All negatives are now rehydrated and are sitting in Ilford Rapidfix to see if that'll lighten up the negs a bit. I was planning on leaving them in there for an hour (based on exactly no data). Should I leave them in there longer? Shorter? Try a salt fix? Fix them in the trash bin?

(All images are straight off the scanner with histogram adjustments done in Epsonscan, and Lightroom used only to crop and convert to jpeg)

[imagesfrugales]

Oh my, these films are severly affected.

Why don't you try C-41 at room temp? It's so much easier to control and you could pull almost to zero.

pot. bromide = KBr: 1 g/l in the bw developer is a good start point, but in this case I would start with 2 g/l. If you get white negs, you know that you are on the right way. If not ..... I don't know how it works but that it works with not too much damaged film, it works as a restrainer. You could use iodized salt instead, about 10 - 20 g/l, but KBr is better. Too much salt gives socalled dichroic fog, that's ugly brown smear. Avoid stand development, it pushes the shadows and the fog. You need contrast, so agitate the hell out of the soup and develop as short as possible.

Let's pray. The first C-41 @ EI 6 sample somehow is something.

[Indofunk]

Avoid stand development, it pushes the shadows and the fog. You need contrast, so agitate the hell out of the soup and develop as short as possible.

This is what I figured, but I couldn't find anything online for Ektachrome in HC110, so I had no clue where to even start. Shall I try treating it as if it's Tri-X? So that would be 10min in HC110H, or 5min in HC110B. Also I'll order some KBr from Freestyle.

In my harried and haphazard Googling, someone somewhere mentioned that severely fogged E6 film often looks better when processed E6 rather than C41, so maybe I'll try bracketing a roll and having it developed E6. If it looks any better I'll buy an E6 kit and shoot the rest that way.

Let's see if by the end of these 50 rolls I can finally find a way to shoot them!

[Sandeha Lynch]

Let's see if by the end of these 50 rolls I can finally find a way to shoot them!

In true pioneer spirit.   

[Francois]

Have you tried metering it at EI 3 

[imagesfrugales]

.... someone somewhere mentioned that severely fogged E6 film often looks better when processed E6 rather than C41, so maybe I'll try bracketing a roll and having it developed E6. If it looks any better I'll buy an E6 kit and shoot the rest that way.

If you do so you should also underexpose several stops. Black fogged negs may lead to white reversed positives. I once had this problem with Ektachrome EP160T. But I fear you will get more or less clear slides.

[Indofunk]

Have you tried metering it at EI 3 

Next roll will be at EI -1600

[Indofunk]

.... someone somewhere mentioned that severely fogged E6 film often looks better when processed E6 rather than C41, so maybe I'll try bracketing a roll and having it developed E6. If it looks any better I'll buy an E6 kit and shoot the rest that way.

If you do so you should also underexpose several stops. Black fogged negs may lead to white reversed positives. I once had this problem with Ektachrome EP160T. But I fear you will get more or less clear slides.

Thanks, I'll try that. I mean, 50 rolls, easily worth wasting one roll on a single scene shot at EI 3200 - EI 0 in 1/3 stop increments

[Francois]

Usually, slide film gives better colors when underexposed a bit. I guess you won't have any trouble with those films... 

[Bryan]

Usually, slide film gives better colors when underexposed a bit. I guess you won't have any trouble with those films... 

True but there's not much latitude when you underexpose it, much more latitude when you overexpose.  You do loose color saturation when you overexpose.  Figuring out the proper exposure will be very useful, hopefully it holds true for all 50 rolls. 

I have some 120 Ektachrome that's over 30 years out of date that I'm trying to decide how to process after I shoot it.  I may send one to the lab for E6, if I don't like it I'll figure out how best to develop it as Black and white.  I probably won't like it, maybe I can red scale it. 

[Indofunk]

Usually, slide film gives better colors when underexposed a bit. I guess you won't have any trouble with those films... 

True but there's not much latitude when you underexpose it, much more latitude when you overexpose.  You do loose color saturation when you overexpose.  Figuring out the proper exposure will be very useful, hopefully it holds true for all 50 rolls. 

I have some 120 Ektachrome that's over 30 years out of date that I'm trying to decide how to process after I shoot it.  I may send one to the lab for E6, if I don't like it I'll figure out how best to develop it as Black and white.  I probably won't like it, maybe I can red scale it.

I love redscaled Ektachrome. Unfortunately, that's not an option with my batch


Echoes of a bygone era by Satish Indofunk, on Flickr

[Michaelfoto]

Since i am new here, i guess that i am allowed one stupid question.
What is the benefit of using C41 process for a slide film, instead of the E6 proces that it was intended for?

Michael.

[Bryan]

Since i am new here, i guess that i am allowed one stupid question.
What is the benefit of using C41 process for a slide film, instead of the E6 proces that it was intended for?

Michael.

Indofunk is a nonconformist.

[Indofunk]

Since i am new here, i guess that i am allowed one stupid question.
What is the benefit of using C41 process for a slide film, instead of the E6 proces that it was intended for?

Michael.

Indofunk is a nonconformist.

Essentially, that is the answer but processing slide film in C41 chemicals is a common thing. The film comes out as a negative with rather unpredictable color shifts. So yeah, I'm a non conformist

[jharr]

Since i am new here, i guess that i am allowed one stupid question.
What is the benefit of using C41 process for a slide film, instead of the E6 proces that it was intended for?

Michael.

The only stupid question here is the one about film vs di**tal. 

The other benefit of developing E6 in C41 (cross processing or x-pro) is that you can shoot the film like negative film with all of the exposure latitude we enjoy. Push (or pull if you are an uber-non-conformist) if you want to shoot in low light, or just accidentally rate it wrong in the meter (anyone here ever done that??) and it still makes pretty pictures. It is not the Way of the Purist, but it is the Way of the Pragmatist who finds a deal on 50 rolls of dubiously stored slide film (read: Indofunk).

Oh, and welcome to the forum! Glad to have more curious filmwasters.

[imagesfrugales]

With some x-proed films you get a real kaput look including massive grain. Sometimes kaput is the new beautiful. Sometimes ....

[Indofunk]

And sometimes beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder

[jharr]

With some x-proed films you get a real kaput look including massive grain. Sometimes kaput is the new beautiful. Sometimes ....

Did someone say "massive grain"?? This is an ECN2/C41 x-pro. Under-exposure boosts the grain.


K1000-Eterna-017 by James Harr, on Flickr

Really any process that is different than the one originally intended by the manufacturer is x-pro. So E6/C41, C41/E6, C22/black&white, etc. Depending on the type of film, age, storage conditions the effect can be anywhere from subtle to extreme.

[Indofunk]

Avoid stand development, it pushes the shadows and the fog. You need contrast, so agitate the hell out of the soup and develop as short as possible.

This is what I figured, but I couldn't find anything online for Ektachrome in HC110, so I had no clue where to even start. Shall I try treating it as if it's Tri-X? So that would be 10min in HC110H, or 5min in HC110B. Also I'll order some KBr from Freestyle.

In my harried and haphazard Googling, someone somewhere mentioned that severely fogged E6 film often looks better when processed E6 rather than C41, so maybe I'll try bracketing a roll and having it developed E6. If it looks any better I'll buy an E6 kit and shoot the rest that way.

Let's see if by the end of these 50 rolls I can finally find a way to shoot them!

Ok, I tried shooting at EI 6 (because, let's face it, all the results so far have shown that anything faster than that is useless) and processed with HC110B for 5minutes with agitation every 30sec. Result: completely fogged negs, again  BARELY visible images (which, of course, is a step up from stand developing). However, the leader was not totally black, so maybe I should develop longer. Are HC110 concentrations greater than B (32mL of US concentrate in 1L) recommended? Or should I soup in B for longer?

So far, EI 6 and pulling in C41 is still the winner. Will try a bracketed roll in E6 next.

[Francois]

I always develop my found color films in PQ Universal for 10 minutes... maybe the same would work. If you don't have any PQ, you can use some Dektol.


I'm wondering what would happen if it was developed in lith developer?

[Indofunk]

Thanks. I'm still leaning towards trying to coax some color out of it, either through pulling in C41 or normal E6. I do plan to buy some KBr and see what that does in HC110 though...

Oh, Reinhold, when I use KBr as a restrainer, is the developing time the same, or do I need to add time?

[imagesfrugales]

Oh, Reinhold, when I use KBr as a restrainer, is the developing time the same, or do I need to add time?

With regular fresh bw film and the right concentration of KBr the time could be the same. But who really knows? I don't. Everything interacts with everything. Maybe consult a voodoo priestess?

[Michaelfoto]

Hi all.
Thanks for enlighting me.
I better have my brains send back for rewiring one of these days.
Michael.

[Indofunk]

Another test completed: bracketed shots from EI 6 - EI 25, developed in HC110 dilB + 2g KBr for 7 minutes. Results were actually worse than without KBr -- totally fogged negs, and I can't even see a single image. Leader is still gray as opposed to black as I would expect it to be. I'm concluding that this film does not want to be developed B&W (at least not in HC110)

CRC Vista+ is currently developing a roll in E6 which I bracketed from EI 200 to EI 3. Help me, Obi-Wan-E6, you are my only hope (other than shooting it EI6 and pulling in C41 )

[Bryan]

Wasn't there someone on this forum that had a famous quote about Rodinal? 

[Indofunk]

Wasn't there someone on this forum that had a famous quote about Rodinal? 

  that person is dead to me

[MacArron]

Being at this point, the only advise I can give is shooting the film at base ISO and developing it in a mix of C41 + E6 chemicals, adding a spoon of Rodinal. Then leave it boiling for half an hour and taste for salt. Serve cold

[Francois]

Solar prints on film anyone?

[Kai-san]

Why not pre-expose it? Shoot up the whole film against a white wall, wind it back and then take some real pictures. With fifty films you can have a lot of fun! The expenses on developer might not be such fun, though. 

[Francois]

Pre-expose?
Isn't it already quite a bit pre-exposed?

[Indofunk]

CRC Vista+ is currently developing a roll in E6 which I bracketed from EI 200 to EI 3. Help me, Obi-Wan-E6, you are my only hope (other than shooting it EI6 and pulling in C41 )

Just got back the E6 roll.

Anyone want a perfectly clear strip of acetate?

[Bryan]

That's strange, I've shot some very expired film and have always been able to coax an image out if it, even old Kodachrome.  Something horrible must have happened to this stuff.