Topic: Searching for the mythical questing beast of film...

[Indofunk]

I've kind of settled into a groove with the film I shoot. To wit:

* Tri-X @1600, stand developed in HC110: Great for getting the tail of Tri-X, as long as the lighting is relatively decent (sometimes an issue with gig photography)
* Gold @1600, push processed in C41: Pretty much ideal for true, saturated color
* E6 film @+1EV, processed normally in C41: The classic xpro look

I'm very happy with these three options (though in some cases I'm still trying to get my eye used to what Tri-X @1600 likes), but ideally I'd love to have a kind of xpro look (ie, non-true colors) @1600. I've found that I hate high-speed slide film, so actually cross processing E6 film is probably not an option. Is there any CN film, relatively fast (or not?), that I can shoot at 1600 and get some weird colors when push processed? This can be current production film or discontinued film (that I can hopefully find on ebay). I've tried Portra 400 @1600, and it looks great, but still too "true" for what I'm thinking of.

Now back to looking for desert-stored E6 film 

[imagesfrugales]

I can see clearly what you are looking for. For C-41 you might try to play with the pH to get "wrong" colours, so adding small amounts of washing soda (maybe 5 g/l) could give you what you like. Let's see if Sir Henrique has an idea, I just sent him a note.
http://www.ipernity.com/blog/chrono/4488096

[Francois]

Have you tried a film acceleration technique?
Though the colors come out saturated but not entirely unrealistic, you can get some pretty high speeds from that.

[Indofunk]

I can see clearly what you are looking for. For C-41 you might try to play with the pH to get "wrong" colours, so adding small amounts of washing soda (maybe 5 g/l) could give you what you like. Let's see if Sir Henrique has an idea, I just sent him a note.
http://www.ipernity.com/blog/chrono/4488096

Yes! This sounds like what I'm after! Can I "modify" a commercial 2-bath C41 kit? I use Unicolor with the combined blix, and I believe we're talking about the blix stage of development.

[imagesfrugales]

No, I'm adressing the developer stage. The dye forming process is pH-dependent.

[jharr]

Yeah! Throw some drain cleaner in that bad boy!!

[Kayos]

I tried film acceleration and was really happy with the colours

I've just bought some Lomochrome Purple, at £11 a roll it wants to be awesome


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[Francois]

Yes! This sounds like what I'm after! Can I "modify" a commercial 2-bath C41 kit?

At first I thought you wanted to modify the chems in a commercial minilab 

Just imagine aunt Margaret's face when she sees her pictures of her nieces and nephews! 

[Indofunk]

Have you tried a film acceleration technique?
Though the colors come out saturated but not entirely unrealistic, you can get some pretty high speeds from that.

That's where you go B&W developer -> color developer, right? I've done that a couple of times and as I remember there was indeed a slight color shift. I've never actually used it to speed up film though. How would that work if I were to, say, shoot Gold 400 @1600? Do I push in the B&W dev, or the color dev, or both?

[Indofunk]

No, I'm adressing the developer stage. The dye forming process is pH-dependent.

That's worth trying at the end of my color developer's life. Hit it with some Drano!

[Indofunk]

I can see clearly what you are looking for. For C-41 you might try to play with the pH to get "wrong" colours, so adding small amounts of washing soda (maybe 5 g/l) could give you what you like. Let's see if Sir Henrique has an idea, I just sent him a note.
http://www.ipernity.com/blog/chrono/4488096

I just read another one of his articles and he's talking about using commercial hair dye as a color developer. So now I'm thinking that I can take some end-of-life Unicolor developer and add some hair dye AND some washing soda or other basic compound (gives me a good excuse to order some lab-grade NaOH! ) and in that way "refresh" the color developer while also perhaps inducing some weird color shifts. Let me know what he says!

[imagesfrugales]

Let me know what he says!

He's right now moving from one city to another, I guess he will speak for himself in a couple of days.

[Francois]

Have you tried a film acceleration technique?
Though the colors come out saturated but not entirely unrealistic, you can get some pretty high speeds from that.

That's where you go B&W developer -> color developer, right? I've done that a couple of times and as I remember there was indeed a slight color shift. I've never actually used it to speed up film though. How would that work if I were to, say, shoot Gold 400 @1600? Do I push in the B&W dev, or the color dev, or both?

Yeah, there's two ways I found it can be done. One is just plain B&W to color dev. The other one is B&W to color bleach to color dev to blix.
The last one does give cleaner tones.

Here is what I wrote in my formulary about the process.

[Indofunk]

WOOOOOOAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! Ektachrome 200 @1600??? SIGN ME UP.

*ebays every last roll of Ektachrome 200 in the world*

[Francois]

Oh yeah, this process is said to be able to get some massive speed increases.
I found this in a local magazine back in the early 90's. I've never tried it for myself but it should work to some extent.

[hookstrapped]

Interesting...

[Indofunk]

I decided to use a roll of Provia 400X that Adam gifted me as a film acceleration test roll. Right now I'm shooting it at 1600, and I plan to stand develop it in HC110 1:100 for 1.5 hrs (like I do Tri-X @1600), and then wash it a few times and go into C41. I don't want to fix or bleach it because every other time I've tried fixing before C41 dev, no mater how many times I wash it I end up killing the dev

How about bleach? Does bleach carry the potential of killing color dev? If not, then maybe I'll try mixing up some bleach and just bleach it between the B&W dev and C41 dev.

[Francois]

Fixing before the color dev is always a big no-no. And blix is even worse.
Just regular bleach should be OK as long as you wash it good (a good 10 minutes in lukewarm water).

In this process, if you fix before color dev, you won't get the result.

What happens in the process is that you do the B&W dev which reveals the silver image a bit like when processing a slide film. Then you bleach-out the silver since it won't be needed anymore. Color dev gets all the colors out, then blix and stab as usual.
One of the unusual features of this process is that once the first bleach is done, you can actually take the film out of the tank to look at it... but all you'll see is a completely clear piece of film. It looks like it won't work but it does.

The B&W dev actually revealed more silver than the C41 dev usually does without affecting the dyes at the same time. This is what gives you a speed increase.

[Indofunk]

The B&W dev actually revealed more silver than the C41 dev usually does without affecting the dyes at the same time. This is what gives you a speed increase.

The one or two times I've done this (BW dev -> color dev), there were pretty apparent color shifts. Slightly different on each frame, but generally a green shift, I think (with CN film). In any case, I'm looking forward to the results from this roll, although I grant that there is a definite possibility of a completely blank roll 

[Francois]

The difference between your try and this one is probably the bleach step in between both devs...

[Kayos]

I did this exact process a while ago, I will try find you a link but I remember using bleach after to b and w dev, the film went pink


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[Indofunk]

Well, the experiment didn't really work all that well. I shot Provia 400 @1600, then stand developed in HC110 1:100 for 1.5hrs, then rinsed, then went right into C41 for a normal development cycle. The negs looked encouraging, about as good as Tri-X @1600. But my scanner hated them. The tonal range was a super-narrow band in the reds (when scanned as a negative ... the negs themselves were cyan), and even after some histogram adjustments in Epsonscan and of course heavy Lightroom manipulation, I only managed to get very flat, very red images. Here's an example:



I also tried monochroming it in LR. Not too much better (certainly not as good as Tri-X @1600)



Sort of makes sense, because as with all underexposure/push processing, you're only exposing the toe of the film, and I assume E6 film generally doesn't have a very long toe. But if film acceleration is a thing, then it must be possible. Do you think a bleach step between B&W dev and color dev would help? Or should I try Ektachrome and the exact B&W developers recommended on Francois' sheet?

[Francois]

The bleach in between both steps is mandatory.
Also, I don't know how well the pigments react to prolonged developing...
I would start with the chart and if you get good results from that, then you can move on to more experiments. At least you have a known working starting point.

[Indofunk]

The bleach in between both steps is mandatory.
Also, I don't know how well the pigments react to prolonged developing...
I would start with the chart and if you get good results from that, then you can move on to more experiments. At least you have a known working starting point.

Ok. I have one roll of Ektachrome 200 (the chart doesn't specify which emulsion ... in my experience every emulsion behaves differently, even if they're the same speed) and apparently I can use HC110 with it. So I'll shoot it at 1600 (!!!), dev in HC110A, then SKIP the fix step and just bleach it, then develop in C41 normally. Wish me luck!! 

[Indofunk]

Oh, does anyone have a recommended recipe for C41 bleach? Is it possible to use commercial bleach if its concentration is known?

[Francois]

Bleach in this case is not Clorox!
It would just strip the emulsion. You really need C41 bleach. You can find it in the Kodak Flexicolor chemicals. Since this is a commercial kit, you can buy it in parts.
Or if you feel like brewing your own, here are the easiest formulas I have

[Indofunk]

Dammit! And I just placed my biannual Freestyle order  Gonna search Adorama for this stuff, but I have low hopes...

edit: Adorama is out of stock (I'm assuming indefinitely). Freestyle, of course, has both powders, as well as liquid bleach concentrate (which would be the obvious choice). Guess I gotta place another order  I just hate their $9 shipping charge...

[Francois]

Maybe b&h has some in store?

[Indofunk]

Maybe b&h has some in store?

I hate going to that place, but maybe, just this once...

[Kayos]

I take it you normally use a Blix with c41?



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[Indofunk]

Yes, I use the Unicolor kit with blix.

[Francois]

I know B&H is not the nicest place to shop, but sometimes it's just the simplest.

I too go to a shop I'm not too found of. It used to be good but they seem to have lost their soul. Now the clerks just don't seem to care anymore and spend most of their time chatting while you're waiting.

[Indofunk]

Aaand, somehow I manage to never follow instructions  I shot that roll of Ektachrome 200 at 1600, then developed it according to the chart (HC110A 10min), then fixed it, then did NOT bleach it. At this point, I saw a few dots of highlights on the negatives against a totally clear background. Ok, fair enough, it is after all underexposed by 3 stops. Then I did a normal round of C41 development with blix, pulled it out, aaaaaaand.....

Blank  Damn, didn't realize the bleach before C41 made such a difference  Time for another round of testing!!

[Francois]

Oh well.... Live and learn