Author Topic: Looking for some advice (Read 4956 times)

GrainTrain · « **on:** October 18, 2015, 12:05:52 PM »

This post is accompanied by a heavy heart. I am one of, if not the, youngest members here (this is an assumption based on my time lurking here). I dont have nearly as much life experience as some of the other members here and could use a bit of advice, both related to photography and life in general. Recently I lost one of the people I was closest with. Currently, the only thing that is keeping my mind off of it is photography. I have been shooting film for a couple of years now but have never had the opportunity to learn to develop black and white myself. I have always been quite solitary, which is why I was drawn to photography. Photography allows me to express myself in ways I never could with words, even if I am the only one that sees it. To keep this post short, all I am really looking for is some guidance as to what I will need to start off developing back & white film at home. My way of getting over loss is doing what I love, and, that happens to be capturing memories.

Late Developer · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2015, 01:50:51 PM »

I'm really sorry to hear of your loss. These things happen as you go through life. They can't help but stay with you but most people learn to cope and come to terms with them as time passes. Throwing yourself into a new project or learning a new skill can be a big help and I hope it helps you - but you also need to allow yourself to grieve.

Developing B&W film is, in principle, quite simple. It always helps if you have correctly exposed negatives on current film stock as, if you follow the development process, you should get good results. If the film is badly exposed, you'll have no idea whether the results are crap because of the exposure or the processing. There are loads of people on here who have more (and more current) knowledge than myself as I'm only getting back into developing B&W after a 30 year gap!

Anyway, start off with at least 3 x 700ml measuring jugs (for the mixed solutions), a smaller jug around 100-300ml (for the initial measuring of the concentrate). You'll need a thermometer that measures 15 deg - 30 degree celsius accurately, a developing tank (with spool for the size of film you want to develop - most start with 35mm but that's up to you). A light proof film changing bag in which to remove the film from its canister and load it onto the spool, pop in the developing tank and make light proof - before removing from the changing bag. Incidentally, you'll need a tool to crack into 35mm cassettes to extract the film. They're a bit like a lever-type can opener. A pair of scissors is useful to trim the leader to make it easier to lead onto the spool and to cut the film at the end of winding it onto the spool. Once done - spool into tank, put on the light proof baffle and you're almost ready to go.

Once the film is in the tank, it's just a case of loading and unloading the chemicals in the right order - developer, stop-bath and fixer - until the development and fixing process is completed. The chemicals should be mixed to the correct dilutions and be at the correct temperature when used. It doesn't really matter whether you mix them before or after you put the film in the tank - that's up to you. Which chemicals you use is up to you but there's a really useful chart here: http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php which will help you check which chems are suitable for your film and what dilutions / temperatures / timings are best (and how to flex them if you're a few degrees out either way).

Once that's done, the film needs at least 15 minute rinse in tepid water (ideally same temperature at other chemicals). This is done with the film still on the spool and the spool still in the developing tank. Then you remove the film from the spool (carefully) and inspect the results (very carefully) while attaching to clips to hang the film to straighten and dry it. Do this in a dust-free room like a bathroom or kitchen. It'll take a good few hours (better still, overnight) to dry properly. Cut into strips to fit into lengths (usually six frames - but check first) that fit into special neg storage sleeves.

Some folk use home-made solutions and you'll see all sorts of stuff about stand developing, semi-stand developing and the right / wrong way to agitate the tank, the intervals to use and whether to use rinse-aid, etc. All interesting stuff but probably something to experiment with once you've nailed the basics.

One last piece of advice. Until you're proficient, use a lab for anything that's important to you. Practice on stuff you can live with screwing up. I can't stress this enough. It's bad enough to wasting time and money and still screwing up something you don't mind losing but to compound the effect by screwing up a roll of film containing something you really want to use / keep drove me apoplectic.

For the most part, developing film is simply a process - much like cooking. If you don't follow the recipe, it's not going to look good or taste right. You know what I mean. You just need to be organised and methodical. The stuff can be picked up cheap from the big bidding site or local camera shops. It might cost a little to get set up but, after that, it's mostly the chemicals - but it's a load cheaper than labs.

Best wishes and I hope it all works out for you.

Francois · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2015, 02:32:30 PM »

I'm really sorry about your loss... But I guess that's part of life...

LD pretty much summarized this well. But I can add a few tips and suggestions.

When working in the dark, I tend to like using kids safety scissors. Their short blade is easier to handle in a dark bag and you can't poke holes in stuff with pointy ends. Film cuts easy so they don't need to cut all that well.

For the opener, for years I used a regular bottle opener and it worked very well.

For the dark bag, if you have the money, invest in a dark tent. These are so much more comfortable to use as you don't have to fight drooping fabric when trying to cut the film and not cut the bag...

Snipping the corners of the film makes loading it on the reels much easier.
Practice loading the reels in daylight with a dummy film at first... You won't regret doing so.

For the storage containers, for the stop bath and fixer I just use some old juice bottles as these chemicals don't fear air as much as the developer.

After the rinse, you might need to use a soak in demineralized water before drying. This will dilute the minerals in tap water and help prevent water spots. I use some photo-flo which is a surfactant that helps the film dry faster and spotless.

To hang the film to dry, I used some cloths pins for a long time. They're not the best thing there is but it works. I used to have a small fishing line weight attached to the bottom pin to help keep the film straight.

If you don't want to invest in stop bath at first, just use some white vinegar diluted 50-50... It works just fine.
These are just various tips...
If I can think of some more I'll post them here.

Terry · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2015, 03:03:25 PM »

All good advice; I can only add my encouragement to dive in and do it. Once you've started souping your own there are no limits! And there's nothing (IMHO) as satisfying as pulling a just-developed roll out of the tank and seeing actual images on it. It's excellent therapy.

Pete_R · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2015, 03:25:58 PM »

Sorry to hear of your loss. I too found photography useful a few years ago when I suffered a couple of losses close together (and had a lot of other sh*t happening as well).

If I can add my 2 cents worth to the above. I would say keep it simple to start with. Start with 35mm even if you're planning on doing MF later. If you're using a camera with manual rewind, learn to feel when the film comes off the take-up spool and stop there. It means the leader is still hanging out of the canister and that means you can trim it and start it into the developing spool in the daylight (and I know people say you shouldn't do it because of the increased risk of scratching the film pulling it back through the light trap but I've always done it that way). If your camera automatically rewinds the film then check to see if there is an option to get it to leave the film leader out.

I haven't used stop bath for years. Unless you choose a film / developer combination that requires very short dev times then stopping the development instantly isn't that important. A good rinse with some water is all I ever use.

And use the Ilford method of film washing. It saves water, it's quick, and you don't need any equipment to do it. I've never owned a film washer in 40 odd years of developing film as someone told me about the Ilford way when I started out and I've done it ever since. Here's the method:

After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same temperature, +/– 5ºC (9ºF), as the processing solutions and invert it five times. Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank ten times. Once more drain the water away and refill. Finally, invert the tank twenty times and drain the water away.

And finally I'd add to the list of equipment a big jug or other container of 2 or 3 litres at least to 'mix' your water to the right temperature (using a mixture of hot and cold of course) so you then have a reasonable amount to mix the dev and use for a rinse and maybe the washing as well without the risk of thermally shocking the film.

jharr · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2015, 04:52:04 PM »

GrainTrain, all of our thoughts are with you. Losses like this are difficult. As LD said, let yourself grieve and you will get to a point where you can just have good thoughts and memories about that person without the pain of the loss. It sounds like you have figured out that you also need a mental/emotional break from the grief now and then, so your plan is very good to dive into a new interest like souping your own film.

I don't have much technical to add to what is here and what you can find on the web. I try to keep things as economical as I can, so Peter's tip about pulling the film back out of the canister is good because then if you decide to ever get a bulk roll of film and load your own, you can reuse the old canisters by taping the new film to the little end left hanging out after you cut the exposed film off. I also skip the photo-flo and just use some distilled water with a drop of dish washing soap. I even reuse this since it doesn't really go bad. That step is the very last one before you pull the film off of the spool and hang it to dry. All it does is reduce the spots on the film that you would see if you just rinsed it with tap water and let it dry.

Hang in there, we are looking forward to seeing the fruits of your efforts.
James

imagesfrugales · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2015, 05:37:04 PM »

Hi Scott(?),

I'm 100% with Peter, keep it simpel. I sign every word he said. Since I have a dark bath...., ahhh, darkroom, I need no changing bag. Here`s what I use for 35 mm film:

- a small Jobo tank 1000, 30 years old, needs only 250 ml. Can be found cheap on .bay A newer model is the 1510.

- can opener to open the film canister if necessary

- scissors, Francois tip for kid-save ones is great

- a measuring cylinder 250 ml. Syringes 2, 5 and 10 ml, without needle of course

for a few cents in every pharmacy. Great for small amounts of Rodinal or HC110 developer concentrate.

- empty and cleaned yoghurt cups, the stable 1 liter plasic type, to mix and pour the prepared liquids into the tank

- empty and cleaned glass bottles with screw-cap (re-used wine bottles e.g.) of all sizes to store the liquids. Plasic is a mess here. Label properly! On the label sticker you can also note the number of processed films. I use adress sticker from my office.

- 2 simple funnels, 1 for the developer and 1 for the fixer.

- the cheapest bath thermometer I found, bought in a supermarket, I choosed an average indicating one from about 20 peaces they had, works.

- pegs to hang the film for drying. Simple laundry pegs can do the job, special and bigger film pegs are more conveniant. The bathroom should be the best place to dry the films if you don't have another dust free room. Keeping the negs as clean as possible is important. That's also why I highly recommend:

- negative sleeves. Very important imo to keep the negs clean. E.g. https://www.macodirect.de/en/archival/archival/5074/maco-glassine-negative-sleeves-for-35mm-pocket-films-100-sheets?c=42 I prefer the pergamine type.

The spiral has to be 100% dry to spool in the film. If the film should be curly, bend the first 2 cm or so against the curl and it will slip into the spiral much easier. Practice in bright light with the cheapest film you can find, then with closed eyes and then in the changing bag or darkroom until everything is fine. Now you may go and waste some film.

Chemicals are another chapter. Ask 10 people and get 11 answers. At least. I suggest 1-shot developers like Rodinal or HC110 because they are dirt chaep per film, 100 % reliable and the concentrates have a very long shelf life. Some people never used anything else and are still happy. I like to experiment a lot and still love Rodinal, but that's another story. Use any fixer from Tetenal, Ilford, Kodak, Agfa or whatever, doesn't make adifference. I highly recommend to make a clearing test always. Also no stop bath, I do 2 intermediate rinses for 30 seconnds each with tap water and heavy agitation. and a drop of dish detergent for the very last rinse. I carefully wipe the film with folded paper tissue and get the cleanest dry negs within half an hour.

My best wishes for you. You will make it. No doubt.

imagesfrugales · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2015, 05:49:47 PM »

PS: the most important tip: only use fresh film and fresh chemicals. When you are more experianced, you may experiment with "strange" stuff. But not now.

Indofunk · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2015, 06:28:19 PM »

I'm sorry for your loss, and I totally understand throwing yourself into something positive in order to overcome it. I don't have much in the way to add to the great advice that's been posted above, so just dive in and in time you'll figure out your own variations on the theme that work for you

Francois · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2015, 10:07:34 PM »

If you choose to go to a powder developer like D-76, you don't need a syringe to measure it out, just a big jug to store it in.
Also, you don't really need a thermometer as the jug will always be at room temperature...

I've been using a Paterson tank for what seems like forever. They're quite good. Arista also makes what looks like a nice copy of the slightly older model.
Plastic reels are very easy to load without making any errors. Stainless reels are easy to load once you understand how to use them... but they require at least double the practice time.

I like to use one of those little kitchen timers from the dollar store (the digital kind). It makes timing the sequences really easy.

I should also mention the thrill of developing.
You load the film in, hoping you spooled it in correctly.
You pour in the developer hoping you got the time and agitation correct. You agitate keeping a watchful eye on the clock so as to not miss the agitation times.
Then you do the stop and fix which are less sensitive to bad timings.
And all that time, you watch the clock and don't think about much else. While I do these steps, I usually do little tasks around to prepare for the drying step.
Then, I pull the reel out of the tank just to see... there are some things on the film! Yes!
I then wash the film and anxiously wait for the moment it's going to be over. This is the time where you get to see how good it's going to be. If you don't worry a bit at every step, you're not doing it right

You take the film off the reel... and you look at it... and all those worries go away! And it's a mix of Pfew and Wow it worked!

GrainTrain · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2015, 12:34:47 AM »

I'd like to thank everyone for all of the kind words and advice. I was not expecting such in-depth responses and for that I am thankful. I am motivated now more than ever to start working on a project that I kept pushing aside. I will try to keep you all updated on both my ventures with developing and the progress of my project. I cannot stress enough how much I appreciate everyone's input, thank you!

Francois · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2015, 01:34:57 PM »

Oh! That wasn't really in-depth... We can do even better, we just skimmed the surface so as not to sound scary

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:06:31 PM »

That's right enough. I mean, between firing off the 37th frame and actually posting it here there are probably no less than 35 emulsion eating errors you could make ... on a good day.

Late Developer · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2015, 06:07:30 PM »

Quote from: Sandeha Lynch on October 19, 2015, 04:06:31 PM

That's right enough. I mean, between firing off the 37th frame and actually posting it here there are probably no less than 35 emulsion eating errors you could make ... on a good day.

Yes, and I'd wager that we've all made every one of them (and more besides) at least once. Basic developing of film is easy, if the process is followed to the letter. However, we are not machines and that's why we waste film

Urban Hafner · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2015, 08:46:05 PM »

I'm really sorry for your loss. I do hope that this will help you a bit through these rough times.

Developing black & white film isn't that difficult and everything important has already been said. The only thing I'd like to add is a trick I learned from Leon. Put the exposed film in the fridge and load it while it's cold. Especially in summer this makes loading so much more easy as the film will stick less.

Francois · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2015, 10:22:07 PM »

But of all the pieces of advice out here, there is one nobody mentioned that will sound really stupid but that I know quite a few people who somehow managed to not follow: don't develop in the fixer!

Pete_R · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2015, 08:42:36 AM »

Quote from: Francois on October 19, 2015, 10:22:07 PM

But of all the pieces of advice out here, there is one nobody mentioned that will sound really stupid but that I know quite a few people who somehow managed to not follow: don't develop in the fixer!

A good point actually. Can you tell the difference between dev and fixer once it's mixed? So always write on the side of the containers what's in them using a permanent marker. And always use the same container next time for each chemical to reduce the possibility of cross contamination.

02Pilot · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2015, 12:32:54 PM »

Quote from: Peter R on October 20, 2015, 08:42:36 AM

Quote from: Francois on October 19, 2015, 10:22:07 PM
But of all the pieces of advice out here, there is one nobody mentioned that will sound really stupid but that I know quite a few people who somehow managed to not follow: don't develop in the fixer!

A good point actually. Can you tell the difference between dev and fixer once it's mixed? So always write on the side of the containers what's in them using a permanent marker. And always use the same container next time for each chemical to reduce the possibility of cross contamination.

One of the beauties of Caffenol - being dark brown and opaque - is that it makes this mistake virtually impossible to commit.

Francois · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2015, 02:42:11 PM »

Apart from the smell, they do normally look pretty much the same.
Right now mine are easier to distinguish than usual because the silver has begun to come out of solution in my fixer....

jharr · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2015, 04:12:36 PM »

Quote from: Francois on October 20, 2015, 02:42:11 PM

Apart from the smell, they do normally look pretty much the same.
Right now mine are easier to distinguish than usual because the silver has begun to come out of solution in my fixer....

Yes, my fixer bottle is completely coated with silver inside. It is kind of cool, but also makes me nervous because I can't get the Tollen's Reagent hazard out of my head from Organic Chem lab in college. The reagent reacts with aldehydes and makes a silver azide coating inside of it's container. The silver azide is shock unstable and tends to explode. I know in my head that the silver coating in my fixer is not explosive, but old habits die hard.

Indofunk · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2015, 08:49:29 PM »

Lately I've been getting a lot of elemental silver in my fixer, so I try to decant the fixer into the tank and then dump the silver down the drain while the film is busy fixin'. Is it bad to throw silver down the drain? I heard somewhere that the main reason to recover silver from fixer is not to make jewelry with it, but rather to prevent the poisoning of fish and whatnot. But then again, I live in a city where they dump raw sewage directly into the Hudson when it rains, so I'm pretty sure my silver flakes aren't the biggest problem that the fishes are dealing with

jharr · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2015, 10:12:23 PM »

When I see things floating in my fixer, I pour it through a coffee filter and toss it in a land fill where it will only poison fish after I am long dead.

Seriously though, the tiny amount of silver you are introducing into the NY effluent is not even measurable, let alone dangerous.

Francois · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2015, 10:33:53 PM »

I know I just keep it floating in there...

I wonder if it's more toxic in precipitated form or in soluble ion form

Dave Elden · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2015, 12:46:57 AM »

Quote from: GrainTrain on October 18, 2015, 12:05:52 PM

...To keep this post short, all I am really looking for is some guidance as to what I will need to start off developing back & white film at home. My way of getting over loss is doing what I love, and, that happens to be capturing memories.

I've said this before in other threads but if there is anywhere near you that offers darkroom courses you may want to sign up for one, it's a practical skill and for most people it really helps to have some hands on training. You'll also be learning with other people at the same stage.
Good luck and come with some scans!

Dave.

Author Topic: Looking for some advice (Read 4956 times)

Terry