Author Topic: Scratches on 120-film  (Read 5335 times)

johan_lindgren

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Scratches on 120-film
« on: August 22, 2015, 11:58:14 PM »
I was wondering if someone had an idea of what may cause scratches on (modern) 120-film. I read in an old topic --> http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=3547 about scratches on 135-film - but on the first frames, and most likely by using a leader retriever.
This is from a roll of tmax, shot using my Bronica EC-TL. I rarely get as much scratches as this first picture shows, but more often like the second one. The first picture shows the 3'rd frame on the roll which was scratched the most.

I dont really know what to say about the process (from start to finish) but there is NO squeegee involved at least, and of course I develop it myself.

My thoughts dwell on...
old fixer? Add hardener?




[url=https://flic.kr/p/xGtwhT]


Anyone else had experience of this?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 12:00:30 AM by johan_lindgren »

charles binns

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 07:59:29 AM »
How long did you dry the film after you processed it? You should leave them to dry overnight otherwise the negatives can get scratched quite easily.

Francois

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 02:45:57 PM »
I guess the scratches are in the direction of travel...
Does the camera back have some rollers that are in contact with the emulsion?
If so, make sure they're all rotating freely.
Francois

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Pete_R

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 03:12:14 PM »
There's dust which has come out white which means it must have been there during exposure (if it was on the film when scanned it would be black). So it looks like this is dust inside the camera and that might also be causing the scratches. I would be looking inside the camera for a solution.

Can you see the scratches on the film? Are they in the emulsion or on the back? That might also give some clues.
"I've been loading films into spirals for so many years I can almost do it with my eyes shut."

johan_lindgren

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 06:51:10 PM »
How long did you dry the film after you processed it? You should leave them to dry overnight otherwise the negatives can get scratched quite easily.
I normally let it dry overnight, but then sometimes I have developed it someplace else other than at home and I slip it very gently into (glassine?) sleeves.

I guess the scratches are in the direction of travel...
Does the camera back have some rollers that are in contact with the emulsion?
If so, make sure they're all rotating freely.
I thought of that too, but they do not seem to have any contact with the film at all. However I might reconsider using sliders for my backs more often as perhaps it might have come dust inside, which then finds itself stuck in between the film and a thin border of the back, and when I advance film - it scratches the film. That is my theory by now anyway.

There's dust which has come out white which means it must have been there during exposure (if it was on the film when scanned it would be black). So it looks like this is dust inside the camera and that might also be causing the scratches. I would be looking inside the camera for a solution.

Can you see the scratches on the film? Are they in the emulsion or on the back? That might also give some clues.

You mean the small black spots in these pictures a asume (not the white)? As the black spots shows that it was not exposed there... Well in fact when you mentioned this, I noticed in the bottom picture that the scratch on that picture has a black spot just above which is perfectly aligned with the scratch!

I indeed see the scratches very well on the film, I think they are in the emulsion, but I cant tell for sure.

charles binns

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 07:05:38 PM »
How long did you dry the film after you processed it? You should leave them to dry overnight otherwise the negatives can get scratched quite easily.
I normally let it dry overnight, but then sometimes I have developed it someplace else other than at home and I slip it very gently into (glassine?) sleeves.



I have had scratching on films that weren't dried properly (ie overnight) from inserting them into sleeves. Are these scratches in the same direction they were inserted into the sleeves?  If so it might be that.  Otherwise you'd need to look at the camera.

Pete_R

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 08:39:51 PM »
There's dust which has come out white which means it must have been there during exposure (if it was on the film when scanned it would be black). So it looks like this is dust inside the camera and that might also be causing the scratches. I would be looking inside the camera for a solution.

Can you see the scratches on the film? Are they in the emulsion or on the back? That might also give some clues.

You mean the small black spots in these pictures a asume (not the white)?

I indeed see the scratches very well on the film, I think they are in the emulsion, but I cant tell for sure.

No, I meant the white dust. But thinking about it, I've got my double negatives wrong. But you're correct about the black dust spot aligned with the scratch.

But now I'm thinking, how can dust show up as white in an image?
"I've been loading films into spirals for so many years I can almost do it with my eyes shut."

Francois

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 08:47:43 PM »
Good question...
As for the scratches, since it's 120 film things are a bit easier. If the back is scratched, look at the development process. If it's the front only, it's most probably a camera flaw (though a development issue isn't excluded).
What brand of film was it? I know that even if we're talking modern emulsion, some of them have fairly soft emulsions.
Francois

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jharr

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 09:04:12 PM »

No, I meant the white dust. But thinking about it, I've got my double negatives wrong. But you're correct about the black dust spot aligned with the scratch.

But now I'm thinking, how can dust show up as white in an image?

If the dust is opaque, then the scanner light doesn't shine through it. That makes the raw dust image black and the inverted image white.

See this (not dust, but the principle applies to ants too):


ftn-dacomatic-002 by James Harr, on Flickr
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Pete_R

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 10:02:00 PM »

No, I meant the white dust. But thinking about it, I've got my double negatives wrong. But you're correct about the black dust spot aligned with the scratch.

But now I'm thinking, how can dust show up as white in an image?

If the dust is opaque, then the scanner light doesn't shine through it. That makes the raw dust image black and the inverted image white.

See this (not dust, but the principle applies to ants too):


ftn-dacomatic-002 by James Harr, on Flickr

Simple really. Think I've just had too much wine tonight to think straight, Hic!
"I've been loading films into spirals for so many years I can almost do it with my eyes shut."

johan_lindgren

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 12:26:14 AM »
I have three magazines for this camera, but I think I have this problem here and there with different equipment too, I guess I should really clean em and check the house for dust when I change film then...

Good question...
As for the scratches, since it's 120 film things are a bit easier. If the back is scratched, look at the development process. If it's the front only, it's most probably a camera flaw (though a development issue isn't excluded).
What brand of film was it? I know that even if we're talking modern emulsion, some of them have fairly soft emulsions.

Kodak (Tmax 400) this time.

Francois

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 02:16:48 PM »
I'm surprised, tmax is usually pretty tough, there must really be something that doesn't roll smoothly in the back.
Francois

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Bryan

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 05:25:16 PM »
I recently ended up with scratches that I know were caused in the camera.  I now refer to it as the Hollywood Scratch-O-Matic. 

Hollywood Reflex Sportsman by Bryan Chernick, on Flickr

The bottom roller where the film feeds from still turns but is badly rusted, I assume this may be contributing to the scratches.  By design there is no roller on the top at the take-up reel so the film may also be dragging across the upper lip.  The image below was shot on Fujifilm Acros.  The scratches are continuous throughout the roll where yours are not.  When I shoot film in movie cameras I'm always cleaning the film path.  Little bits of emulsion come off the film and can cause scratches.  they also end up in the shutter opening and cause clumps of junk that are visible around the edges of the picture when it's projected.  the emulsion debris can come and go as its dislodged and redeposited.  It's amazing how much emulsion comes off on my cleaning cloth in both movie cameras and projectors.  It's not as much of a problem with still cameras but something to consider.  I try to clean anything in the camera that touches the film including rollers and the pressure plate.  I think the leading edge of the pressure plate is an area that can cause much damage to the back of the film.  Also the area that the edges of the pressure plate are pushing the emulsion side against. 

Francois

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 09:56:04 PM »
The pressure plate in itself i not the problem... think about the backing paper
Francois

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Bryan

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 10:18:25 PM »
The pressure plate in itself i not the problem... think about the backing paper

I had movie cameras on my mind.  I would still be concerned with the flat surface that the film is pressed against on either side of the frame.  The emulsion does rub against that as it's wound through.  You see it a lot more in movie cameras due to the amount of film that passes through but I do clean it after every 50' reel. 

johan_lindgren

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 07:24:10 PM »
I found a back which was not loaded and decided to clean it with isopropyl alcohol and found it far more durty than I thought...!

IMGP8929 by Johan Lindgren, on Flickr

...and it realy seems to be a couple of reels which touches the film! I didnt see them at first.

IMGP8934 by Johan Lindgren, on Flickr

And also, one of these reels were quite durty too, with what looked like old sticky isolation... I will absolutely do this with all my gear!! :)

Francois

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 09:12:31 PM »
Disintegrating foam can really be a mess...
I once had a camera I got for super extra dirt cheap at a company auction. The camera was in a foam padded wooden box and when I went to lift it out it was covered with liquefied rubber foam. I haven't been able to clean it since there was so much and ended up dismantling it. It wasn't such a big loss since I got the lens with the shutter out. I'm still wondering how I managed to get all that gunk off my fingers!
Francois

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Terry

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2015, 04:08:31 PM »
Disgusting stuff!  A friend recently gave me a Beaulieu super 8 camera--would really have been rather nice except that it was mummified in decomposing gooey plastic foam.  I gave up trying to clean it and it went in the bin.

jharr

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2015, 04:16:08 PM »
Disgusting stuff!  A friend recently gave me a Beaulieu super 8 camera--would really have been rather nice except that it was mummified in decomposing gooey plastic foam.  I gave up trying to clean it and it went in the bin.

GAAAHHH!! What a horrible fate for a nice camera!  :'(


Beaulieu Diptych by James Harr, on Flickr
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Francois

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Re: Scratches on 120-film
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2015, 09:25:00 PM »
You should have offered it first...
I'm sure it would have cleaned-up pretty good with turpentine or something like that...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.