Topic: No longer a (C-41) virgin

[Terry]

So this afternoon I took the plunge and developed a roll I'd been saving to test my C-41 skills.  It's hand-rolled 127 Portra NC (exp. 2009).  I wasn't especially obsessive about the rules--had a tub of water at roughly 105 F and didn't check the temp at all once I'd started developing.  I like the results, although there were some whacking big ugly white spots on the back side of the film, but a spritz or twelve of PEC-12 took care of them.  Anybody recommend a rinse after the stabilizer?

Anyhow, here are some samples:


C-41 3 par Terry B, on ipernity


C-41 2 par Terry B, on ipernity


C-41 1 par Terry B, on ipernity

[jharr]

Yeah a few of us argued the merits of a post wash after the stabilizer. I don't think there was a consensus, but I get such terrible spots with just stabilizer that it's a waste of time even trying to scan them. So I always do a rinse in dH2O with a drop off dishwashing liquid after. It might have deleterious effects on the archivalness of my negs, but if my photos retain their value for the next century then they will still be worth exactly nothing.

Nice shots by the way and it looks to be a good job on the C-41. Welcome to the club!

[irv_b]

Nice results for your first time Terry. I too rinse after the stabilser with demin water.

[Indofunk]

Here's the topic James was referring to: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7843

I found that there were mineral spots left after drying right from the stabiliser bath, so I've returned to rinsing in water after stabilisation. But now I only rinse once, whereas before I would rinse for ~5 min just like after the fix.

However, like James I am unconcerned because if my negs fade to oblivion in a few years, the world will not be affected in the least

[jharr]

Satish, it adds to the mystique of your remaining work if you have a collection of " lost works ".

[Terry]

But generally only after you're dead.  If my negs outlive me, I guarantee it won't matter to me after that.

I was actually amazed at the quality.  (I'm still processing the "it worked!!!" response.)  I can actually imagine souping color shots that I care about.  Mind-boggling.

[Kayos]

Welcome to the club

I'm now experimenting with other C41 methods, today will be push developing a roll of 200 exposed at 800

[Terry]

Thanks to all those who encourage others to try this.  I'm going to keep doing it, I think.  I tried a modification of the method too: I made up a liter of each chemical solution, then divided that into separate 500ml brown glass bottles.  The assumption is that it might extend the useful life a bit, since the contents of the second batch of bottles will have been exposed to the air only briefly before they're used.  Any thoughts?

[Kayos]

Thanks to all those who encourage others to try this.  I'm going to keep doing it, I think.  I tried a modification of the method too: I made up a liter of each chemical solution, then divided that into separate 500ml brown glass bottles.  The assumption is that it might extend the useful life a bit, since the contents of the second batch of bottles will have been exposed to the air only briefly before they're used.  Any thoughts?

I do something similar, 1L "stock" solutions in the black collapsible bottles, then I pour out and heat only the required amount, either 300 or 600ml

Once its had its time with the film it either goes back into the stock bottle if im done or in the warming bottle if ive more films to do

My thoughts were the same, no need to heat and expose chems un-necessarily and possibly reduce their life, I do keep a diary of films developed and any other factors like pushing, expired film or film acceleleration, this batch is the first ive been so accurate and im up to 17 35mm rolls with no noticeable affects. Im expecting 20-22 per litre

[Indofunk]

Yes, I used to do that too, but now I've gone back to mixing a full liter, because then I don't have to be so worried about the volume of developer (500mL just barely covers 2 rolls of 135 in my Peterson, and every time you use developer you lose some volume to the gelatin sucking it up). Result is that I do indeed get less rolls out of a liter. Before I used to get 10-12 rolls out of 500mL, now I'm getting about that out of a full liter 

[Terry]

Wow, those are great numbers.  I see that the Unicolor kits (the ones I've got) are going up to $24 a pop.  But if I get 10 or more rolls out of one, that's $2-3 per roll--still good value!  I don't have a multi-roll tank so the 500ml dose is just about right for me. 

[Indofunk]

That's what I figure too ... as long as I'm around $2 a roll I'm making out well. But I've heard of others (like James?) getting a lot more rolls out of a liter, I just haven't been able to get there (short of splitting the liter).

[Kayos]

I bought mine as a 5 litre kit (except they sent 2 x 2.5 litre) and if I get 20 rolls a litre that's 40 pence a roll. I will take that

[Terry]

The tally so far: 6 rolls (3@127, 2@120 and 1@35mm) developed in the first batch of 500ml.  The last roll had very dark base fog (haven't scanned it yet though) but it was at least 4 years old, which may account for the fog.  The fifth roll (only two years old!) looks perfect.  I figure if I can reliably get 5 rolls per half-liter that works out at $2 a roll and that's pretty good!

[Indofunk]

I was having problems with my CD dying a sudden, violent, and unexplained death, so someone (Francois?) suggested that I do leader tests before each dev cycle. I've been doing it pretty religiously (except for 120, because there's no leader. unless, I suppose, I actually cut off a slice from the end and expose it to light), and it's a very reliable test indeed. If after 3:30 in the dev, you pull out the leader and it's translucent instead of (mostly) opaque, then you know your dev is on the outs. Once when this happened, I kept the leader in for another 3 min, and it looked ok, so I dev'd that roll for 6:30 and it came out fine. But after that roll I got nervous and dumped it

[Francois]

I always keep old 35mm leaders for all types of tests. I usually cut them in half or more so I can get 2-3 tests out of each one.

[Kayos]

Think I need to start doing some leader tests, 17 35mm films, 1 120 plus some pushing and a go at film acceleration

All from the same litre of chemicals

[Indofunk]

Think I need to start doing some leader tests, 17 35mm films, 1 120 plus some pushing and a go at film acceleration

All from the same litre of chemicals

And no need for increased time? Well done. When did you initially mix your chems? I'm wondering if my inability to squeeze more than 10-12 rolls out of a liter is due to the fact that it takes me a month or more to shoot 10-12 color rolls...

[Kayos]

No time increase yet, it's only been a few months and it's all kept in black collapsible bottles. Should be good for 20-22 according to the instructions

[Indofunk]

On the subject of air: I know that we try to store our chemicals with minimal interaction with air, whether in collapsible bottles or by dropping marbles in the bottle. But it occurred to me that simply processing a roll of film, using agitation, introduces a lot more air into the solution than just storing still chemicals in a bottle. Especially the way I agitate C41 now, I give it 4 really fast and hard inversions so that I can get the tank back in the hot water bath ASAP, and when I open it up there's a huge head of froth on it

Thoughts on that?

[Kayos]

Having done some geeky data logging, over the 3:15 period I develop for the temp drop is negligible, and I use a twiddly stick in a 3 steps forward, 4 steps back type movement

The chemicals oxidising from being stood and oxygenating from being used are (I believe) 2 seperate things, as while its with the film it's reacting with the emulsion

When I had a 9 month break from anything film related I used my stored chems on one film, didn't even think about how long they had been stored! It came out ok but I didn't risk any more

[Ed Wenn]

Just to add a bit of random 'ballpark photography' (the photographic equivalent of chaos theory...or something) nonsense to this erudite and informed discussion; my buddy Al Cooper (a member here, but long since dormant) mixed up a vat of the cheapest C-41 he could find and used it (and used it and used it) over a period of a few years just to see how long it would go for and how many rolls he could process before he noticed any significant difference in the finished negs. He had originally left this batch of chems in his shed in the hope that as they got more and more gnarly and used up, he might be able to get them to produce weird colour shifts or other grungy variables. After a while he realised that they were doing exactly the opposite and delivering decent usable (for scanning) negs long after they should have been poured down the drain.

I'll try and dig up the link to the post on Filmwasters. It's a few years ago now so I may have some of the details wrong, but now is a good time to dig it up.

[Ed Wenn]

OK, so I went back in time and located most of what I was referring to in my previous post.
 

First off, it seems Al has been around on Filmwasters recently (hi Al), I just haven't been around here enough myself to bump into him.

Secondly, I forgot to mention that Al is the person who brought the design for the matchbox pinhole to the world: http://www.matchboxpinhole.com/ which is worth checking out if you want to see something very cool.

Thirdly, there's a very interesting C-41 discussions on the Articles board. Confusingly, it was started by another Alan, but this time not Al(an) Cooper. I'm sure you've seen it, but in case you haven't: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=4442.0

Fourthly, the discussion about the half life of C-41 chems on Filmwasters to which I referred in my previous post can be found here: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.0 and an archive of Al's original blog post can be found (via the ever awesome Internet Archive) here: http://web.archive.org/web/20110109055733/http://alspix.blog.co.uk/2007/04/21/title~2135363/ The article is unfortunately without the original images, but it's definitely still worth a read.

[jharr]

On the subject of air: I know that we try to store our chemicals with minimal interaction with air, whether in collapsible bottles or by dropping marbles in the bottle. But it occurred to me that simply processing a roll of film, using agitation, introduces a lot more air into the solution than just storing still chemicals in a bottle. Especially the way I agitate C41 now, I give it 4 really fast and hard inversions so that I can get the tank back in the hot water bath ASAP, and when I open it up there's a huge head of froth on it

Thoughts on that?

My only thought is of you standing over your sink madly shaking the living bejesus out of a poor developing tank before plunging it back in the water, splashing hot water all over the place; all the time with heaving breaths and a crazy mad scientist look on your goggled face. How am I doing?

Seriously though, gentle agitation/inversions does the trick. You are not going to lose any significant heat on the time it takes for four gentle inversions. Slow and steady wins the race you jack rabbit.

[Terry]

After only six rolls I'm hardly expert in this.  That said, I'm very much pleased with my results.  Here's the routine that developed:  I fill a plastic tub with water out of the hot tap, which reliably runs at 110 degrees F.  I use a steel tank not a plastic one, just personal preference (and it's smaller).  I pre-warm the chemicals for about twenty minute, stick a thermometer in the developer to see that it's between 102 and 105, then start the developing process.  I invert three times (no reason, just habit: I do this with B&W too) and return the tank to the bath.  If the bath water gets cool I add more from the hot tap if I have time between agitations.  For the blix stage I don't look at the temps--the Unicolor instructions say that anything above 95 degrees is OK.  Then I stabilise for one minute and rinse in demin. water.  The only glitch I've encountered was the white spots on the dried film, which the final rinse cured.  Next time I mix the chemicals I'll use demin water for the stabiliser and see if that fixes it.

[Francois]

I got thinking about chemical oxidation while reading this.
There are two types of oxygen in the chemistry. There's the atomic oxygen as found in the water, something we can't do a thing about. And then there's the dissolved oxygen that gets added by the splashing on the water and faucet aerators and stuff.

I was wondering is using a vacuum pump to get the mixed chemistry to boil at low temperature wouldn't help make it last for a very long time?

I'm also wondering if storing the chems in the refrigerator door wouldn't help keep degradation to a minimum.
I know I've seen a picture on Tokyo camera style where they showed a film fridge where there were plenty of Kodak bottles in the door...

[jharr]

Less gas (oxygen) will dissolve in water at 105F than at 35F. So when you are doing the aggitation, not much oxygen is dissolving in your developer, so it is not available to oxidize the chems. If you refrigerate your chems, the oxygen in the liquid will stay there and any oxygen in the air gap at the top will equilibrate with more of it in solution. I don't know if light helps oxidation along in this case. I don't use opaque bottles. I squeeze the air out before I cap them and a couple of weeks later when I open them, it is still squeezed out. There doesn't seem to be much you can do about the minimal amount of oxygen that is going to get to your chemicals, so I tend to leave that off of my list of things to worry about.

[Indofunk]

Less gas (oxygen) will dissolve in water at 105F than at 35F.

Dammit, you just out-scienced me! I hate when that happens

[Terry]

I like the leader test idea.  I may find an old roll to sacrifice: cut off chunks of it to test the developer and keep the unused bit in the fridge.  Should last a long while.  So the trick is to get it good and lightstruck?  That should be easy!

[Ed Wenn]

Yep, the leader test is a great idea, especially for people like me who only dev films once a year.

 

[Indofunk]

Yep, the leader test is a great idea, especially for people like me who only dev films once a year.

 

^ this. Though I'm more like twice a month in C41

[Terry]

Did the clip test; it came out a VERY dark brown/orange but not quite opaque.  Whaddya think?

[Indofunk]

Perfect.

[Terry]

Wahoo!

[thatguychad]

You had me scared that the Unicolor kits would increase on Freestyle, but they're still at $18.99.....so I ordered 2 to keep in the darkroom.

[Terry]

Thanks Chad; they've gone up to $25 at B+H.  I just stocked up on the $19 ones from Freestyle!

[Indofunk]

I just retired a batch of C41 dev after 22 rolls. Can't remember the last time I did that without the dev either dying or giving me a blue shift. I'm pretty sure I have Francois to credit for the leader test suggestion and also for making me paranoid about dev/blix contamination. So now I have to slightly change my philosophy ... film doesn't care about shit, it'll come out fine no matter what you do, but C41 chems do care and you got to treat them right

Terry, how many rolls have you processed so far?

[Terry]

So far it's 13 or 14 rolls in one half-liter batch of chemistry.  I still haven't souped anything in the second half.  Been out of town, so I guess now I'm testing the shelf life.  Going to soup a roll of Pro 400 H tomorrow to see what happens.  Clip testing beforehand, of course!  Imagine getting thirty rolls out of one box of chemicals....

[thatguychad]

FYI, my last C-41 chemicals (Unicolor) were mixed October 12, 2014 and are still going strong with 10 rolls processed so far. I usually only go about 12 rolls per 1L batch.

Also, I just checked Freestyle, and their Unicolor kits have gone up to $22.

[Indofunk]

Also, I just checked Freestyle, and their Unicolor kits have gone up to $22.

Woah! That must have happened literally hours ago, because when I put it in my cart yesterday it was 18.99. Now I look at my cart and it does indeed say 21.99...

[astrobeck]

 I almost had a panic attack the first time I did color, but now it's kind of like making coffee... I just don't think about it that much.

All the rinse info is good to know. My water is the worst for spotting!

[thatguychad]

I almost had a panic attack the first time I did color, but now it's kind of like making coffee... I just don't think about it that much.

All the rinse info is good to know. My water is the worst for spotting!

I've come to feel that C-41 is easier than B&W development once I got my routine down.

[szabolcs.agai]

I almost had a panic attack the first time I did color, but now it's kind of like making coffee... I just don't think about it that much.

All the rinse info is good to know. My water is the worst for spotting!

I've come to feel that C-41 is easier than B&W development once I got my routine down.

I love the fact that any box speed needs same dev. time, no worries to fit developers to film types too.
One batch is fine for different film with different speeds, that's great.

[Indofunk]

I still hate C41. The only thing that keeps me doing it is the money I save by doing it at home And yes, before you ask, I have been toying with the idea of selling all my color film and just shooting B&W

[Francois]

So far, what has kept me from the DIY route is the stench... not much else.

But I might take the plunge this summer and do the processing outside.

[thatguychad]

So far, what has kept me from the DIY route is the stench... not much else.

But I might take the plunge this summer and do the processing outside.

I have a pretty good sniffer, and apart from the smell during the mixing of the chemicals (avoid putting your face over blix, especially, due to the exothermic reaction), I haven't really noticed much of an odor during developing.

[jharr]

And yes, before you ask, I have been toying with the idea of selling all my color film and just shooting B&W

You have my number when you decide to sell. I even have 100' of awesome expired Dacomatic Recordak with your name on it if you feel like trading.

Hey, what ever happened to the Share the Film thread? Oh, wait. I think I was supposed to keep track of that.

[Kayos]

I don't find C41 smells bad at all, all tho I do use seperate bleach and fix

Once the 2 test rolls in new cameras are done that will be 20 rolls from 1 litre so 40p a roll

I will do a clip test before I do those 2, then probably one after

[Indofunk]

I'm even doing leader tests on freshly-mixed chems to make sure I didn't f*** up

Whoever it was on here who got me paranoid about C41, cheers! You did a bang-up job!

[Terry]

Nothing exciting to report: I souped roll #15 and it worked perfectly.  I did wimp out a bit; this was a roll I wanted to keep, so I souped it in the second (as yet unused) batch of 500ml.  So the stuff seems to have a shelf life of weeks or maybe months!  I'll do a clip test of the first batch to see if it's still OK.

But I did nothing special for these chemicals except to store them in brown glass bottles away from direct sunlight.  Roll 15 is drying tonight; I'll scan it tomorrow and we'll see what I got.  If these kits are good for 20+ rolls, even 22 bucks is a pretty good deal.

Edit: Just checked the top of this thread--it's been a full two months since roll #1