Topic: Film acceleration

[Kayos]

Another randomish technique I came across and wanted to try
No extreme colour shifting as promised by some, but I definite improvement in the saturation of the colours compared to similar rolls developed normally

More info here https://kayosphotography.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/film-acceleration/

[Francois]

Nice results. I think that the color shifts probably have more to do with whether the film is bleached after the first B&W developer or not.
I've seen some instructions where it was suggested and others not.

[imagesfrugales]

Great results, Kayos. I guess I haven't understood the process in detail.

It's a reversal development of a color neg film with bw and color developer? And would it be possible to do a reversal development of a regular transparency film as described above?

[jharr]

How do you get wet film back  on the reel after exposing it? I guess a SS reel would be necessary for this. I don't think there would be any way to get it back on a plastic 'quik load' style of reel.

[imagesfrugales]

And Kayos, could you give some details: Film shot at which ISO, 1. dev dev kind and time/temp, second dev time/temp? Thanks a lot.

[Indofunk]

I've done something slightly similar, but much simpler. I dev'ed in B&W chems, then went straight to normal C41 processing. There were definitely color shifts: http://www.indofunkstudios.com/2014/09/17/hybrid-process/

I tried it again, this time fixing after the B&W dev (and then of course rinsing thoroughly before the C41 dev), but I think I may have contaminated the C41 dev with fix, because I'm pretty sure it was dead the next time I used it.

[Kayos]

I wasn't really sure about the re-exposing steps so I just pulled it off and held it up to a window for a look, being a 24 it went back onto a plastic Paterson reel quite easily, not sure if a 36 would have snagged tho.

My process basically was black and white dev then fix, wash, expose, bleach, wash and redo fully in C41 chems.
Based on previous experiments I did the black and white developing with HC-110 for 6 mins @ 30 deg, the fix was same temp but as I used some stuff that had been used a few times so I left it in for 11 mins then dumped it, the C41 was done at 37.8 deg thanks to my new improved water bath

Film is Kodacolor 200, 10 years expired and shot at 200, as I first found this as a recovery process for old film I wanted to try it at box speed first

A few things I read said it would be suitable, some even said ideal, for slide film, but the results just looked like E6 processed in C41 to me. I will however try it when I aquire some

I went kind of word blind reading up on it last night, so don't remember seeing anything about not bleaching after b and w chems, I will however give that a go soon

Is there a specific or special way to re-expose?

Sorry if this is a bit of a jumbled reply, kept adding as other folk posted and I'm on my phone, will grab the laptop shortly and make sure I've answerd everyone

[Francois]

The process I've seen was for slide film.
B&W dev, wash, color bleach (no blix), wash, regular C-41.
By the time you do the C-41 process, the film isn't sensitive anymore but all the color information is ready to come out.

I know my variation is supposed to bring out natural looking colors that are very pointillist... HUGE grain.

[Kayos]

Francois, I do remember reading that now, do you think it would be safe to take it out of the tank after the bleach? I think the re-expose steps are more "look at the film" than anything else as once its fixed surely light has no effect? I only ask as I want to wash it well before putting it in C41 dev

I took mine out after the B&W fix, to see if anything had developed and that was when I realised about the loading error (last few frames had gone between the loading guides on an AP reel, hence why I reloaded to a Paterson one)
The bleach by eye comment also amused me, I just bleached for 10 mins at 30 deg, when it was all pink I looked at the emulsion side and saw a pink image, maybe I should have scanned that?

I think I will try the no B&W fix version on some CN400 (basically Rollei Scanfilm) as it has a clear base, when I first looked at todays negs I was slightly disappointed as they looked so "normal" it was only when I scanned I realised it had had a good effect on the colours

[Photo_Utopia]

I'm not sure all the steps are necessary as pointed out. I have developed E4 where the film was placed in front of strip lights to reverse them, though once fixed you can't reverse tones as the non exposed silver is removed by fixation.
It might interest you to know that Patterson system 3 reels were transparent so to allow for light fogging, chemical fogging agents mean that this method is now no longer in use.

Your process does this.
Step one:
Normal B&W development will reduce all silver in the colour records at a similar rate, some chromogenic development may take place as the couplers in each record form dye as the reducing silver interface.

Step two:
The fixer removes any silver that has not been exposed to light, the film is now stable and you hve 3 B&W layers with residual dye formed in step one.

Step 3
Light fogging-this step is redundant as the film is stable no fogging can take place.

Step4
Bleaching will make all the silver in the image soluble (unstable) so that it can be removed bt fixation and washing leaving the dye formed in step one.

Wash.
Developing in C41 will have no further effect as the silver has been reduced, and made soluble by the bleach (removed if you used blix in step 4.
I'm not sure that even if you use plain bleach that phenidone based (C41) developer will increase the density of the dye clouds.
This stem might be redundant, and if you didn't use Blix the silver will need removing to avoid a dense grainy negative.

[Francois]

The light fogging stage is redundant. You don't need it for a negative. The only time its useful is for producing slides... And even then it wouldn't be at that stage.

In the instructions I had read they said you could dry the film after the b&w and first bleach stage (no photoflo), roll it back in a can and bring it to a minilab who trusts you blindly to have them run through the machine a perfectly clear piece of film!

[Indofunk]

I'm not sure all the steps are necessary as pointed out. I have developed E4 where the film was placed in front of strip lights to reverse them, though once fixed you can't reverse tones as the non exposed silver is removed by fixation.
It might interest you to know that Patterson system 3 reels were transparent so to allow for light fogging, chemical fogging agents mean that this method is now no longer in use.

Your process does this.
Step one:
Normal B&W development will reduce all silver in the colour records at a similar rate, some chromogenic development may take place as the couplers in each record form dye as the reducing silver interface.

Step two:
The fixer removes any silver that has not been exposed to light, the film is now stable and you hve 3 B&W layers with residual dye formed in step one.

Step 3
Light fogging-this step is redundant as the film is stable no fogging can take place.

Step4
Bleaching will make all the silver in the image soluble (unstable) so that it can be removed bt fixation and washing leaving the dye formed in step one.

Wash.
Developing in C41 will have no further effect as the silver has been reduced, and made soluble by the bleach (removed if you used blix in step 4.
I'm not sure that even if you use plain bleach that phenidone based (C41) developer will increase the density of the dye clouds.
This stem might be redundant, and if you didn't use Blix the silver will need removing to avoid a dense grainy negative.

Thanks Mark, this makes a lot of sense. So it seems that it is pretty similar to the method I posted after all (B&W dev -> C41 dev) as the fixing and bleaching can really be done at any step after the initial development.

The only part about C41 development (in general) that I don't really understand is the dye coupling. You said that even when using B&W chems, some dye coupling can take place, however in my experience when I dev color film in B&W chems it's always completely B&W no color to be seen anywhere. So how exactly do the dyes become associated with the silver particles and how do we see them as actual colors? My (completely uneducated) notion was that the color dyes were actually pre-bonded to the silver particles in their respective layer, and that once those silver particles were exposed (reduced), developed, fixed, and bleached out, the dyes were displayed to human eyes through ... umm ... magic?

[Photo_Utopia]

The processes that are chromogenic rely on development of the grains that have been exposed to light, certain types of developers like Phenol  (PPD also known as p-Phenylenediamine) based ones develop the grain and simultaneously allow dye from the coupler to migrate into the grain surface, it helps if the grain is reduced to a filamentary form.
Colour development happens when developers oxidise to form dye, that is there is a reaction between the oxidised developing agent and the coupler which undergoes a nucleophilic attack to form a leuco dye which later in the process is converted to dye depending on the coupler type.

The developer type is crucial, certain developers are better at developing colour than others I think a standard MQ might be a poorer choice, colour developers also need quite high activity and a p.h of >10 
In E6 for example the first developer is essentially a B&W negative developer (PQ type I think) and has a lower ph than the PPD based colour developer which has a target of ph 11 (go below this and you get pink clouds with Velvia and blue shadows with Ektachrome)

I hope that is clear...

[jharr]

So can someone bottom-line this for us? Will any b/w developer work or just certain ones? Is temperature a critical factor?

Thanks,
James

[Kayos]

From my own research and what I've read any B and W will work, as it's just developing the silver
The massive dev chart has times for XP2 which should be in C41 so they can be a good starting point if you're unsure, I know colour likes a bit of temp which I why I did mine at 30, using HC-110 dilution B

[Photo_Utopia]

Any B&W developer will develop the silver, in the case of XP2 I think that is just a regular B&W film once processed in B&W developer it yields silver rather than rather than dye which it does in C41.
 The whole process is one of couplers that are in the film bonding to the silver, the silver is removed during bleaching.
So B&W process will reduce the silver which is then fixed-pretty simple.

XP2 With chromagenic development:
Reduces silver and at the same time the silver is bonding with the coupler to form dyes, the silver is wholly removed by the bleach and fix to leave dye clouds.

This process as outlined above obviously works to a degree but several steps are redundant. In my opinion a weaker or lower temp and longer colour developer will yield better results.
A standard C41 process (3:15) developer bleach and then fix will give good results on 10-15 year old film with ease, here is a 10 year out of date Fuji

Southwold by Photo Utopia, on Flickr

So I'm not sure what the process does, not to be disparaging as it is always fun to try out new methods, they should however have some theory to back up the practice IMO.

Keep having fun though, don't listen to me!

[Indofunk]

The processes that are chromogenic rely on development of the grains that have been exposed to light, certain types of developers like Phenol  (PPD also known as p-Phenylenediamine) based ones develop the grain and simultaneously allow dye from the coupler to migrate into the grain surface, it helps if the grain is reduced to a filamentary form.
Colour development happens when developers oxidise to form dye, that is there is a reaction between the oxidised developing agent and the coupler which undergoes a nucleophilic attack to form a leuco dye which later in the process is converted to dye depending on the coupler type.

The developer type is crucial, certain developers are better at developing colour than others I think a standard MQ might be a poorer choice, colour developers also need quite high activity and a p.h of >10 
In E6 for example the first developer is essentially a B&W negative developer (PQ type I think) and has a lower ph than the PPD based colour developer which has a target of ph 11 (go below this and you get pink clouds with Velvia and blue shadows with Ektachrome)

I hope that is clear...

Ok, this is just a tiny flower foul, since I actually understood it



So basically the color developer both reduces the silver AND oxidizes the dye/coupler into a form which will later (when?) form a dye in situ. Yes? If I'm wrong then let me know, I have to increase the size of the flower pic

[Kayos]

My reasons for trying were firstly the colour shifting effects, that turned out to be a non starter
Then I saw it was used to "rescue" old film, first a b and w develop to see if there was anything worth saving, then a colour develop to see if colour could be restored

Compared to the same film, bought (so presumably stored) in the same place, shot on the same camera with the same lighting conditions the colours where much better, more saturated and natural.

I am on a mission to learn more about the photo chemistry side of things, I know it's not simple but stuff like this lets me relate this chemical and that process to this end result, I'm learning and having fun, plus experimenting with some slight notion of what may happen is more fun than blind chance

"Results, I've got results; I know thousands of things that don't work"

[Kayos]

Also if I was to try the method Francois posted (same as mine but no b and w fix) would I be able to remove the film after the first bleach? I have no interest in looking at the film and I had already figured out the re expose was a waste of time, but I'd like to be sure all the bleach has gone before I put the C41 dev in there

If not I will just wash with the water change method

[Photo_Utopia]

Ok, this is just a tiny flower foul, since I actually understood it



So basically the color developer both reduces the silver AND oxidizes the dye/coupler into a form which will later (when?) form a dye in situ. Yes? If I'm wrong then let me know, I have to increase the size of the flower pic

The colour developer develops the silver and activates the coupler to form dyes, oxidisation is also important and a byproduct.
So yes pretty much correct, they key difference between the films is the silver makes up the image of a conventional B&W but is wholly removed during chromagenic processing by the Blix.

[Photo_Utopia]

Also if I was to try the method Francois posted (same as mine but no b and w fix) would I be able to remove the film after the first bleach? I have no interest in looking at the film and I had already figured out the re expose was a waste of time, but I'd like to be sure all the bleach has gone before I put the C41 dev in there

If not I will just wash with the water change method

It is a little know fact that wet film is less sensitive to light than when dry, in some cases commercial processing the bleach stage on is done in the light.
In E6 for instance you can watch the process of colour development as you can have the light on (after reversal)

Here is a picture of a 16mm machine I used to run which is basically E6

vnf1 colour developer onwards showing racks by Photo Utopia, on Flickr

The first developer is under the lid hatch on the left the first rack in the open is the colour developer.

Once you bleach the film the silver is in an unstable state ready for removal, I doubt that you will have further reduction of the grain an better process would be B&W developer (increase contrast) followed by wash C41 developer then Blix this will give you an enhanced contrast esp if the first developer is strong, but grain might increase.

Have a play-write everything down because if something looks good you might want to repeat it!

[Francois]

Also if I was to try the method Francois posted (same as mine but no b and w fix) would I be able to remove the film after the first bleach? I have no interest in looking at the film and I had already figured out the re expose was a waste of time, but I'd like to be sure all the bleach has gone before I put the C41 dev in there

If not I will just wash with the water change method

From what I can tell from my limited knowledge of the film side of things, once the couplers are "activated" they just wait for the proper chemicals to bring them to a visible state.

[jharr]

Has anyone tried this with ECN2 film? I wonder if the b/w dev step would remove the remjet given enough agitation?

[Francois]

Good question... I have absolutely no idea if it would work.

[Kayos]

I remember reading (on here I think) about removing remjet in the first bath, but what it was and how escapes me at this time

[Francois]

I think it was Sodium Carbo... there's an article about it in the articles section
http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7635.0

[jharr]

The generally accepted (I think) method is to use a Sodium Bicarbonate bath with vigorous agitation/shaking to remove remjet before developing. I think the bicarb is just to adjust pH. I am thinking that since the b/w dev is one shot, it could be re-purposed to remove the remjet. The agitation however might increase grain and contrast??

[Kayos]

Now I think I've found a cheap source of short ends in the UK, this could open up lots of possibilities with colour developing experiments

Just need to practice with the remjet removal

[Terry]

I think I recall reading that temperature is also a factor in remjet removal.