Topic: Film drying advice

[Indofunk]

So I feel like I've pretty much perfected my developing technique, both color and black and white, but the one problem that I consistently run into is drying marks (water marks) running down the middle of my rolls. See for example this one, right in the center of the frame:



I use PhotoFlo, a couple of mL in 500mL of my last wash. I've also tried less of it and more of it. In addition, based on internet advice, I've tried a little isopropyl alcohol in the last wash, either with or without PhotoFlo. None of these combinations seems to help at all, I keep getting those annoying little drop marks. Help?

[jojonas~]

this is gonna be good! drying marks has been my bane for a long while (and something I haven't cared enough about to do something about )

[Poliweb]

All I can say is what works for me.

First off - you don't mention distilled water with the PhotoFlo. I assume you do. That's key so there aren't any minerals left when it dries out. I just use a few drops of PhotoFlo in 500ml of distilled water for the final rinse. Then I squeegee the film from top to bottom between my index and middle fingers and hang to dry in the shower. No drying marks, no scratches, no dust.

I hope that helps

Richard

[Indofunk]

You know what, I just use tap water. Maybe that's the final elusive variable. I don't feel like "wasting" DI water on every step in the process, but if it will prevent drying marks I'm willing to try it for the final rinse

[Poliweb]

You know what, I just use tap water. Maybe that's the final elusive variable. I don't feel like "wasting" DI water on every step in the process, but if it will prevent drying marks I'm willing to try it for the final rinse

I don't use it for any other step in film development. But always for the final rinse. Give it a try - it should make the difference for you.

Richard

[Francois]

I put diluted Photo-Flo in a spray bottle and put some only on the film before drying. No marks for me!
I should add that I used distilled water for the dilution and that I sterilized the bottle with isopropyl alcohol before putting the water in. I've had it for close to two years and nothing has grown in it so far.

[John]

Hi Indofunk. It doesn't sound like you're doing a lot wrong.

If you're in a hard water area, perhaps distilled water would help you? I use a rinse aid like PhotoFlow in tap water, and then I just hang the film dry - no squeegee. But I live in a 'soft water' (low minerals) area.

Drying marks used to drive me nuts too.

[imagesfrugales]

For me demineralized water works, or tap water with dish soap for the last rinse. Or tap water, no soap but wiping with V-folded cleenex. Dish soap works much better for me than any photoflo etc. Tap water and fotoflo -> drying marks here to.

[Indofunk]

NYC *supposedly* has soft water, but that's before it runs through the 100-year-old infrastructure under the city and in the buildings. I definitely taste "stuff" in the water (mostly chlorine), so first I'm going to try carbon-filtering the tap water (been meaning to buy a carbon filter for drinking water), and if that doesn't make a difference I'll bite the bullet and buy some commercial DI water. Gimme a couple of weeks to do the required tests and I'll let you know how it works out Thanks! 

[Indofunk]

For me demineralized water works, or tap water with dish soap for the last rinse. Or tap water, no soap but wiping with V-folded cleenex. Dish soap works much better for me than any photoflo etc. Tap water and fotoflo -> drying marks here to.

Now that's interesting. I got a roll souping now, I'll try dish soap! How much, just a drop I assume?

[Poliweb]

NYC *supposedly* has soft water, but that's before it runs through the 100-year-old infrastructure under the city and in the buildings. I definitely taste "stuff" in the water (mostly chlorine), so first I'm going to try carbon-filtering the tap water (been meaning to buy a carbon filter for drinking water), and if that doesn't make a difference I'll bite the bullet and buy some commercial DI water. Gimme a couple of weeks to do the required tests and I'll let you know how it works out Thanks! 

You mention DI water - I'm not sure if you are referring to De-Ionized water. However, regular distilled water is fine - and it's $1 per gallon at our local Walgreens here. So for 13 cents I'd suggest you give it a try first!

Just my 13, er 2 cents!

Richard

[hookstrapped]

You know what, I just use tap water. Maybe that's the final elusive variable. I don't feel like "wasting" DI water on every step in the process, but if it will prevent drying marks I'm willing to try it for the final rinse

Didn't I yell you this a week ago?  :rollyeyes:

[Indofunk]

You know what, I just use tap water. Maybe that's the final elusive variable. I don't feel like "wasting" DI water on every step in the process, but if it will prevent drying marks I'm willing to try it for the final rinse

Didn't I yell you this a week ago?  :rollyeyes:

You probably did. Wait, am I supposed to actually *listen* to what you say? I've gotten into this great groove of completely ignoring you, don't make me change now...

[hookstrapped]

You know what, I just use tap water. Maybe that's the final elusive variable. I don't feel like "wasting" DI water on every step in the process, but if it will prevent drying marks I'm willing to try it for the final rinse

Didn't I yell you this a week ago?  :rollyeyes:

You probably did. Wait, am I supposed to actually *listen* to what you say? I've gotten into this great groove of completely ignoring you, don't make me change now...

Just because of that hot Kodak stock tip I gave you a few years back?

[Francois]

Don't forget that those filters need regular changing... that's where they make their money.
The best thing about the spray bottle trick is that it also takes very little photo-flo and it won't gum-up your reels!

[Indofunk]

For me demineralized water works, or tap water with dish soap for the last rinse. Or tap water, no soap but wiping with V-folded cleenex. Dish soap works much better for me than any photoflo etc. Tap water and fotoflo -> drying marks here to.

Now that's interesting. I got a roll souping now, I'll try dish soap! How much, just a drop I assume?

Well check that out. A drop of ordinary dish soap and ZERO water marks to be seen! Caveat: this was Tri-X, which hardly gave me any problems to begin with. Most of the annoying water marks were on color film (is this because B&W masks water marks better? probably). So I'll wait for my next roll of color before I pass a final judgment, but this is definitely encouraging!

[Terry]

I have a theory that the different plastic bases handle water differently.  I seem to get most watermarks on Fuji Acros. 

[imagesfrugales]

Now that's interesting. I got a roll souping now, I'll try dish soap! How much, just a drop I assume?

I use 2 or 3 drops until the water feels slightly soapy between the fingers. Depends on the water quality of course.

[Francois]

I have a theory that the different plastic bases handle water differently.  I seem to get most watermarks on Fuji Acros. 

That's probably the case. Color negs seem to soak-up water like a sponge!
It probably has to do with the thickness of the emulsion more than the plastic itself... though some films are on polyester while others are on acetate...

[jharr]

Carbon filters are for removing color, taste and smell caused mostly by volatile chemicals. Spots are caused by dissolved minerals (calcium ions mostly), so demineralized, deionized or distilled are going to be your best bet. Photo-flo and soap both do the same thing. They reduce the surface tension of the water so that it doesn't bead on your film, it just runs off. I use a drop of dishwashing liquid in some distilled water and don't usually have problems. The tap water here in So. Cal. is hard like rocks. No bueno for rinsing film.

Good luck!

J~

[Indofunk]

Update: I tried using the same amount of dish soap on some Lomo CN 800 and there were more drying marks than I've ever seen before Distilled water it shall have to be...

[hookstrapped]

Update: I tried using the same amount of dish soap on some Lomo CN 800 and there were more drying marks than I've ever seen before Distilled water it shall have to be...

I think you should keep trying other things before distilled water just to make sure.  Like maybe skip fix and washing and go straight from the developer to laundry detergent.

[Poliweb]

Update: I tried using the same amount of dish soap on some Lomo CN 800 and there were more drying marks than I've ever seen before Distilled water it shall have to be...

I think you should keep trying other things before distilled water just to make sure.  Like maybe skip fix and washing and go straight from the developer to laundry detergent.

You made me smile. But in reality it's sad. Why spend all that money on film and chemicals and then ruin the results for the sake of a few cents worth of distilled water? I'm all for experimenting - but this I just don't get.

[hookstrapped]

Update: I tried using the same amount of dish soap on some Lomo CN 800 and there were more drying marks than I've ever seen before Distilled water it shall have to be...

I think you should keep trying other things before distilled water just to make sure.  Like maybe skip fix and washing and go straight from the developer to laundry detergent.

You made me smile. But in reality it's sad. Why spend all that money on film and chemicals and then ruin the results for the sake of a few cents worth of distilled water? I'm all for experimenting - but this I just don't get.

Indo's a scientist at heart

[Indofunk]

Update: I tried using the same amount of dish soap on some Lomo CN 800 and there were more drying marks than I've ever seen before Distilled water it shall have to be...

I think you should keep trying other things before distilled water just to make sure.  Like maybe skip fix and washing and go straight from the developer to laundry detergent.

Funny thing is that I did exactly that on the Lomo800 roll. Skipped bleach & fix (well, partially skipped anyways) and went right to dish soap.

But if I had used distilled there would be no drying marks!!

[Francois]

Isn't there a dye stabilizer in this kit?

I once heard of some people using Jet Dry dishwasher stuff (the blue bottle that prevents spots) though I can't vouch for it's film safety...

[Indofunk]

Just bumping this thread again to let you know that I've tried distilled water for the last rinse a few times now and I'm still getting drying marks Peter also cautioned me against hand-squeegieing too hard, which I was doing. So now it's distilled water + photo flow or dish soap, swish it around for a bit, pull it off the roll and lightly squeegie between two fingers just to get the running water off, and hang in a moist bathroom (to avoid dust). And still drying marks. Not on every frame, but on about 50% of them.

No worries, sometime in the next few years I'll figure this out 

[SLVR]

how are you mixing your photoflo? Are you actually measuring with a syringe? Perhaps the drying marks arent related to your water but as residue from the detergent in the photoflow/dishsoap.

[Indofunk]

how are you mixing your photoflo? Are you actually measuring with a syringe? Perhaps the drying marks arent related to your water but as residue from the detergent in the photoflow/dishsoap.

I started out measuring with a graduate (what is it, 1mL/100mL?) but after a bunch of rolls I got to knowing how much to add to a Patterson-ful so now I freehand it. I've tried less photoflow and more photoflow than the 1:100 recco, but that doesn't seem to make a difference.

[Francois]

Photo-flo is a surfactant while regular soap isn't.
Think of the spots on the film as hair. If you wash your hair with handsoap, you'll get stiff unmanageable hair. This is because the water minerals in the water will stick to the hair. Shampoo on the other hand is a surfactant which facilitates the flow of water and repels the minerals.

Now, using distilled water for the final rinse ensures that the mineral content of the water on the film is so low that it won't leave any residue on the film.

As for me, this is the only way to avoid spots and not waste any wetting agent.

[Indofunk]

To be specific, I'm not getting any spots, but rather "rivers" in the middle of the frames, like in my example at the top.

I'll try photo flow in a spray bottle. So is the workflow: rinse in distilled, hand-squeegie the film, hang, then spray both sides with distilled/photoflow?

[Bennybee]

Hi all,
I don't use distilled water because if drinking it can kill you, then it's probably not good for your film either :-)
Just joking, I'm a cheapskate, so I don't buy it nor do I buy Photoflo. I use half a drop of Dreft dish washing soap instead, taking care not to agitate the water in the tank too much or the stuff will start foaming. Then I hold the spiral under the running tap for a brief moment, hang the film in the bathroom and just run the film through my index and middle fingers. Whatever you do, don't use one of those Jobo film squeegees!  I used one ...just once, and then put my foot on it.

[Francois]

So is the workflow: rinse in distilled, hand-squeegie the film, hang, then spray both sides with distilled/photoflow?

Not quite.
I rinse in running tap water, take the film out and just swing the reel a bit like throwing a baseball to get the water out through centrifugal force, hang, spray both sides and even out and remove excess fluid by squeegeeing using my fingers, let dry in a dust free environment.

I could probably let the thick layer of photo-flo just drip down naturally and save myself the risks that come with sqweegeeing with my fingers... but it dries slower.

For 4x5, I do the same but just hang by a corner and spray.

I've been doing this for a while now and only had one roll of 120 with spots... I probably didn't spread the photo-flo evenly or removed too much.

[Indofunk]

Ok, wait wait WAIT a second people. Let's back up here. Look at the photo I posted and that "river" down the middle. Is it, in fact, a drying artifact or is it ...

NEWTON'S RINGS???

If you said "Well obviously, you're placing your film emulsion side down on the scanner, as Epson recommends, which causes the curliest part of the film in the middle to contact the scanner glass and create Newton's rings", then you are absolutely correct!! Thank you Francois for teaching me about NR's in a very roundabout way ... in the "just picked up" thread you point someone to one of your "contraption" threads in the articles section on how to scan sprocket holes, and mentioned NRs, and I put 3 and 5 together and somehow got 10. And 10 means that from this day hence I will scan my negs upside-down and flip them in Lightroom. I expect to see no more "drying marks" that are in fact Newton rings.

Mods, please close this thread as I never needed any film drying advice to begin with! I just needed a physics lesson!

[SLVR]

I believe that Epson reccomends (at least for the v700) for emulsion side to be up. Which does make sense in your case because I find films can concave with the emulsion side up.

I always scan scan emulsion side down. I find that I get sharper scans than the way epson recommends.

[Photo_Utopia]

As well as photo flow and distilled water make sure the humidity during drying is high, put the film in the shower after 5 min of steam, or place a paper tray in the bottom of your drying cabinet.
Also lower drying temp and slower drying reduce curl which can case water to run down the centre of the film from the clips.

[Francois]

Newton's rings are a possibility. It's always hard to say for me because I rarely get them... and when I do, it's pretty obvious what they are.

If it's just NRs, that's pretty easy to fix.