Topic: Blank negatives

[limr]

I need help figuring out what I did wrong. Here's what happened:

I have three 120 rolls that need developing: two rolls of Delta 400 and one of HP5. I used the Delta-STD recipe and developing times to develop a roll of Delta and it seems fine. Here's the chart I used for the data: http://www.caffenol.org/film-development-chart/

According to this chart, HP5 should use the STD recipe as well, but with double Vitamin C and one more minute of developing time.

I have had no problem reusing Caffenol a few times (a different recipe, though), so I kept the batch from the roll of Delta, added the extra Vitamin C, and developed the HP5. Did everything as usual, finished fixing and rinsing, and pulled the reel out.

Nothing. Completely blank - clear (the fixer's fine) but not even a hint of an image. No markings either, so not a camera issue (especially since the Delta came out fine. All rolls were shot with the Mamiya C330 I just got for Christmas.)

Should I not have reused the same batch? Could the extra Vitamin C have done something? Was 10 minutes too short?

I was planning on using the Caffenol C-M recipe for the other roll of Delta 400 so I could compare them (same film, same camera, different recipe) so I was going to throw the other batch out anyway.

I'm annoyed that the whole roll was wasted, but at least it was just a test roll - the first roll I put through the Mamiya and shot at home, so I can easily replicate the shots. I suppose I would have made this error at some point and so it's better now on a test roll than later on some more important shots.

[Fluminian]

Too bad, Leonore. I've done it a few times too and was feeling really bad afterwards.
You have probably mixed the bottles of developer and fixer and started with fixer.
If you can't see the numbers on the edge of the film you fixed it before developing.
If you can see the numbers you developed unexposed film.

[imagesfrugales]

Hi Leonore,

many points to talk about. First, I have no own experiances with the STD-recipes. Maybe you ask Dirk aka Dr. D. himself. He's a nice guy and will answer.

Although some people report of successful reuse of Caffenol I don't recommend it. I never got the same results with the following developments a couple of days later. But a complete failure with blank negs is hardly probable.

Do you weigh or measure with teaspoons?

The Delta-STD recipe uses a lot of Vit-C (20 g/l), and with doubling it you add a lot of acid. If you haven't checked your washing soda for water content, it could be easily possible that the developer is now completely inactive because too sour. The soda is already on the low side for this recipe. A big questionmark is the recipe itself. Dirk does not specify the kind of soda he uses, anhydrous, mono- or decahydrate or mixed ones as in France, but as he lives in Munich I'm pretty sure he uses anhydrous (waterfree) washing soda. The differing water content - if not checked - is by far and hands down the most frequent cause for any problems with Caffenol. See also here:
http://caffenol.blogspot.de/2011/02/trouble-shooting.html
http://caffenol.blogspot.de/2010/03/soda-myth-and-truth_07.html
I can't see why Dirk is using so much Vit-C for the HP5+. For fast films I would add some pot. bromide or iodized salt, and they do not affect the alcalinity.

HP5+ is excellent in Caffenol-C, I shoot it frequently and get great results.Which recipe I recommend depends on the exposure index. For boxspeed I would recommend Caffenol-C-M but with reduced soda (rs). Use 40 g/l instead of 54 g/l and add either 1 g/l pot. bromide or 10 g/l iodized salt as a restrainer and antifogging. 15 minutes at 20 °C with regular agitation and you will be fine.

And please, if not already known or done, check the water content of your soda.  And use a scale.

PS: it's absolutely impossible to confuse Caffenol with fixer ;-)

[limr]

Thank you both!

The possibility of confusing developer with fixer is a good one, but I was using Caffenol, which could never be confused for fixer. Dark brown and smells like coffee vs clear and smells like tuna fish

Reinhold, I used a scale to measure out the ingredients (I have a kitchen scale that measures in grams and U.S. ounces.) The first roll I did - the Delta 400 - came out a bit thin but the images still look fine, similar to previous film I've developed (mostly Kentmere 100 and TriX at this point). It must have been the addition of the Vitamin C - that was the only variable. Yes, the film was different, but even if it weren't the optimal recipe for HP5, I still would have gotten images, but I got a totally blank strip.

So it was my inexperience with the effects of the variables, but also my fault for not checking the water content. I will certainly do this in the future.

I did the second roll of Delta 400 (shot at box speed) in the Caffenol-C-H recipe, but with the reduced soda (40g) and the negatives do look denser. I was reading through the Caffenol Cookbook before I started and that's why I decided to try the two recipes to compare the effects and find a starting point for any possible variations of my own. The second strip is still drying so I might not be able to scan it until tomorrow for any comparisons.

Just out of curiosity - is it possible or recommended to premix several batches of the dry ingredients ahead of time to keep in separate containers? So when it comes time to mixing a new batch to develop a roll, I can just add the mix to the water?

[imagesfrugales]

"Just out of curiosity - is it possible or recommended to premix several batches of the dry ingredients ahead of time to keep in separate containers? So when it comes time to mixing a new batch to develop a roll, I can just add the mix to the water?"

Again, I know that some people use premixes but I don't recommend it. Why give up the biggest advantage of having always the same undoubtable quality? Instant coffee is a biological product and will change quite fast if diluted in water. I only use Caffenol 1-shot and fresh mixed. So I get 100% reproduceable results. Btw, I recommend diluting in the order soda, vit-c, coffee. Less foam from the coffee, better and faster procedure.

[limr]

I'm not sure if I was clear. I meant just measure out the coffee, soda, Vitamin C (and salt if needed) and keep just those ingredients in a bag or something. When I want to develop, I can take one of these bags of pre-mixed ingredients and add it to water for a fresh batch of Caffenol without having to measure every time I have a new roll to develop.

I didn't mean mixing it with water ahead of time and using it later. Just the dry ingredients to save some of the work of having to measure each time.

[gsgary]

Have you shot other films with this camera and they came out ok ?

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

[limr]

Have you shot other films with this camera and they came out ok ?

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

I shot three rolls in the Mamiya C330. Two of them came out fine. It was the second one that I tried to develop that went wrong. I'm sure it was a developing problem and not with the camera. I'm scanning in the other two rolls right now and I'm already seeing a big difference between the two recipes I used on the same film.

[imagesfrugales]

Mh, to be honest I don't know if premeasuring and storing the ingrediants together is harmful or not. I never did it and probably never will.

[Ezzie]

I am almost sure you killed the developer by using too much vitamin-C. In the recipies Reinhold and I adhere to (apart from the C-L low pH stand developer), the ratio of anhydrous soda to vitamin-C is almost always in excess of 3:1 (weight measured) resulting in a pH quite a bit over 9. I like the RS versions which use a little less Soda, but even these use 40g vs 16g vit-C per litre typically, or if you use a RSA 40g to 10g.

I also prefer HP5+ in Caffenol (to lets say Tri-X). It works a treat in Caffenol-C-H (RS) with 1g/l potassium bromide, and normal development for 14-15min (EI 400) @20C/68F

Sande bay by Eirik0304, on Flickr

[limr]

I am almost sure you killed the developer by using too much vitamin-C. In the recipies Reinhold and I adhere to (apart from the C-L low pH stand developer), the ratio of anhydrous soda to vitamin-C is almost always in excess of 3:1 (weight measured) resulting in a pH quite a bit over 9. I like the RS versions which use a little less Soda, but even these use 40g vs 16g vit-C per litre typically, or if you use a RSA 40g to 10g.

I also prefer HP5+ in Caffenol (to lets say Tri-X). It works a treat in Caffenol-C-H (RS) with 1g/l potassium bromide, and normal development for 14-15min (EI 400) @20C/68F

Sande bay by Eirik0304, on Flickr

I read your explanation in the Cookbook and why you added less soda, and that's the recipe I followed. I liked the results better than the Delta STD recipe. There are a lot of variables and it can be hard to keep track of at times. The 3:1 or more ratio of soda to Vit.C helps - I can remember that! What I'd like to try next is the recipe for stand developing.

[imagesfrugales]

Short summary to avoid probs: use approved recipes, check the soda, use a suitable scale. It is so easy. Have fun!

[Photo_Utopia]

I think with Caffenol the p.h is quite important, I guess less soda and more vit-c might have lowered it so much that the phenols in the coffee were not active enough to initiate development.
Most developers are high in p.h normally in the 9-11 region.

[limr]

I think with Caffenol the p.h is quite important, I guess less soda and more vit-c might have lowered it so much that the phenols in the coffee were not active enough to initiate development.
Most developers are high in p.h normally in the 9-11 region.

Now that I understand this, I'll hopefully not make the same mistake again. Now I get to move onto new mistakes! I've been developing for a few months now and I've only used Caffenol, but I was trying to use different recipes to see how they compared. I knew I was going to screw up a roll sooner or later, and that it would be a bummer, but that my mistake would probably teach me more than my successes would.

Short summary to avoid probs: use approved recipes, check the soda, use a suitable scale. It is so easy. Have fun!

Oh, I'm pretty much hooked on Caffenol It's confusing at first because there are so many different recipes, but things are finally started to get sorted out in my head. My digital kitchen scale is very good, and I'll start checking my soda more carefully. Thanks so much!