Author Topic: What makes film so attractive?  (Read 12777 times)

hookstrapped

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What makes film so attractive?
« on: January 20, 2012, 03:27:03 PM »
I was skyping with my friend Alex yesterday and she was showing me her latest photos from this backstage fashion show shoot in Berlin, and some were really good and some were ho-hum.  And we were talking and the good ones were film and the ho-hum were digital, and she shoots a Canon 5D.  Then she asked me about this new Fuji camera I'm excited about and I explained that the sensor has an array more like random film grains compared to the regular repeating pattern of all the other sensors out there -- designed to meet a technical issue of eliminating moire patterns and false colors without using a low-pass filter.  But in the process, they may have taken a step toward achieving more of a "film look." A couple reviewers are really excited about this prospect, and one I read made a reference to a digital video lens adapter -- "I’m reminded of the P+S TECHNIK PRO35 Image Converter that uses an oscillating ground glass to capture video images with 35mm format lenses. The random pattern of the moving grains gave a film-like look to the video images."

I think this thing of regular versus random is the key qualitative difference between digital and film, even if it plays out at a near microscopic level -- but our brains can tell (?).  In cine/video, you also introduce the frame-to-frame static versus change issue, i.e., in typical digital video I think if you were to look at a super blown up image of a static shot frame-to-frame the details in the image would be identical, whereas with film they wouldn't be because the film grain from frame-to-frame is different.

I recall some movie I saw last year that looked great and I only later found out that it was shot on digital video and it made me conclude that film is dead, but it also left me wondering, How did they do that?  Maybe this oscillating ground glass or other technology is what they used to get the randomness of film grain and the change frame-to-frame...

Anyway, the film versus digital debate isn't about resolution, color, or low light performance.  It's about this qualitative thing, this "feel" or "look" that film has and what's that about.  I think it's about randomness in the basic building blocks of the image, and with moving images frame-to-frame changes, at a near microscopic level.  And it's a trip that our brains know something isn't quite the same.  And especially for people brought up with film images, as well as younger people discovering them later, there is something inherently more attractive that comes from that randomness.

Late Developer

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 04:09:51 PM »
Peter,

For me, output is THE whole point of why I take photos - whether it's for printing or for posting on the web. I presume this is because I spent time shooting weddings and portraits as a second income some years ago. It didn't bother me what badge was on the front of my canera, so long as it did the job and the customer was happy and paid up.

I don't profess to be as gifted or remotely as technically capable as many (most, even) on this or any other website but, having used both film and digital extensively, I always revert back to film when I want something to "look" the way I want it to look.

My digital camera (Nikon D700) is a marvel of the digital age and is easily the match of any 35mm film SLR when it comes to all the measurable criteria necessary to create great images. However, as with all other current digcams it lacks "feel" IMO. It is too clinical. I've invested in Nik Silver Efex Pro to reduce the "digitality" of the files it produces - but that seems like a complete waste, somehow, when I can get the real deal from just about any box with a shutter and a roll of Tri-X.

I still like what the D700 gives me from a sheer convenience perspective but my film camera to digital camera collection ratio is something like 8:1 - and my wife is almost sole user of the D700 these days.

I think I have to agree with you about the "look". It will be interesting to see if this new Fuji X1 Pro does produce something that equates more closely to a film look - but I won't be buying one to find out.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

Sandeha Lynch

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 06:38:07 PM »
For a paid project I'm currently working on, in colour and with flash, I use digital.  I'd be nuts not to.  But that kind of work rarely stimulates me in the creative sense.  I'm too hooked on form, and greys are the only colours I really enjoy playing with.  If I were into high contrast b&w (and if a lack of experience meant I might confuse noise and grain) then a digifile might be adequate, but that i'nt the case.  The emulsion-type 'sensor' works far better, and better still when it's a decent size.

And then there's the stress !!  I need that.

Ed Wenn

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2012, 11:30:21 AM »
And it's a trip that our brains know something isn't quite the same.

No comment on all of the geek talk above, but I would agree 100% with this statement and it's fascinating how our brains often can tell one from the other.

LT

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 11:37:29 AM »
I agree with Peter that the preference for film is entirely qualitative, and as a result fully subjective. 

We like it, it's what we choose. No need to justify that choice, or compare it to anything else. As long as it's there to choose, I will opt for film and silver printing.

I don't really care what digital is up to in this respect.
L.

Paul Mitchell

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 12:30:40 PM »
I think there has been enough lineage given to the film vs digital debate for me to add to it. Suffice to say I love the smell of freshly opened film... go on... try and sniff a CF card  ;D
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LT

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 12:43:05 PM »
I wanted to add something to my post - after re-reading Peter's OP:

Peter said:

"I recall some movie I saw last year that looked great and I only later found out that it was shot on digital video and it made me conclude that film is dead, "

I know this was not Peter's intention, but reminds me of the common assumption (or misconception) from those not in the know, that all the people who use film in the world are just waiting for something better to come along, and then we can all heave a sigh of relief. that's just not the case.  We're not waiting for something to replace our archaic and clunky technology, we revel in its organic nature, and love the results we get as a result.

Film = old, but that does not mean that digi = better.

L.

Ed Wenn

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2012, 02:31:20 PM »
These last 2 posts are perfect. Thanks gents.

charles binns

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 04:14:46 PM »
I resisted digital for years.  About three years ago I bought a Nikon d40 with a 18-200 lens and took it to China.  Took some lovely photos.  Two weeks after I got back I discovered holgas and the D40 now gathers dust. In fact it really only comes out when I need to photograph something to sell on Ebay!

As I said the D40 did take good pics but they just lack character - something indefinable that you do get from film.

God, I wish I'd known about Holgas before I went to China though.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 06:27:17 PM »
Charles, my story is similar to yours in many respects.

I've shot film from the start of the 1970's when I was a about 10. I got my own camera at 13 and, later, even considered doing the wedding and portrait shooting thing full time (but the sheer excitement of being an insurance underwriter had its grip on me by then..... ::))

When digital came along, I though "hello, this looks interesting" and got very interested in it. I was still shooting film but digital was new and oh-so "immediate" and convenient. I bought a D70, then traded up for a D200, then up to a D300 and finally a D700. The my brain kicked in. It suddenly dawned on me that I'd spent a small fortune to go backwards into the future - i.e. buying a series of cameras that produce images with which I'm less satisfied than those I could create with a film SLR at a fraction of the cost.

My D700 isn't gathering dust as my wife is getting into photography and loves using it.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2012, 06:49:35 PM »
Two things annoy me about the film-versus-digital argument, especially as it applies to motion pictures.  The first is the idea that the equipment is the most important thing in the creative equation.  I've seen some films shot with the red camera that looked quite good.  If you know its limitations (latitude, falloff rates, color space, motion artifacts, etc.) you can get some quite stunning images from it.  It has an advantage in extreme low-light situations where it can give you an image of sorts when real film would not.  But the difference between good and bad footage is much more to do with the skill of the DP and the lighting crew than the camera, as it is with film too.  Look at some of the awful footage Hollywood perpetrated in the 50s and 60s--all down to bad lighting.  You can make crappy images with film and you can make good images with digital chips.  The only ones who have an interest in the claim that the capture medium is critical are the marketers of that hardware and their shills.  It's debate without substance. 

Secondly, what annoys me about all this furore is the fundamentally conformist worldview behind the "film is dead" adherents.  Where does it say that we all need to being doing the same thing?  What sort of person (who often claims to be creative) accepts this logic? 

vicky slater

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2012, 09:16:45 PM »
I've always thought that film is more attractive because the people who use it are so much prettier and more intelligent than other types of photographers.
 ;)

Francois

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2012, 09:53:23 PM »
Terry: have you seen the documentary on Mellencamp?
This was all shot on super-8 :)
Francois

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Terry

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2012, 10:12:56 PM »
Francois--I haven't seen it but I've seen other stuff shot onsuper 8 that was beautiful. 

Vicky--I agree!  (Tongue firmly in cheek.)

All that said, though, I helped out with some special effects footage on an indie feature last year, and was talking to the director about the film last week.  It was shot on both the red camera and on 35mm film, and the colorist in LA said that he could tell without question which was which--the difference, to an eye accustomed to looking closely at footage, was substantial. 

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2012, 10:41:10 PM »
Here's the preview :)

Enjoy!

John Mellencamp Its About You Trailer
Francois

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Terry

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2012, 11:46:44 PM »
Wow...some great content.  I like the way they really pushed the stock and didn't mind the way it punched up the grain.  Gritty!  Got to get a look at the whole thing.  Thanks for that!

moominsean

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »
i think probably one of the biggest turnoffs about digital for me is the fact that last year's camera is a piece of crap. you always think the one you have is great until you see what the next one can do, then you realize all of your old photos look like shite. it is photography at least 60% based on technology.
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Jack Johnson

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2012, 01:34:30 AM »
i think probably one of the biggest turnoffs about digital for me is the fact that last year's camera is a piece of crap. you always think the one you have is great until you see what the next one can do, then you realize all of your old photos look like shite. it is photography at least 60% based on technology.

Two factors there, I think.

First, the camera companies love digital, because their customers went from purchasing three cameras in a lifetime to three cameras in a decade. And the whole game may be biased that direction, right? It's like Yahoo, #3 in the U.S. and everyone's ringing the death knell. It seems Ilford is the only photo company that knows how to leverage a loyal fan base without chasing the market growth dragon.

Second, I like to joke that I want the pictures of my dog to last longer than my dog. Either my digital archives accidentally wind up in the great magnetosphere in the sky or, hey, here they are, and wow they look like crap.

I'll take my crappy negs from 19-year-old Jack and his still-functioning Nikon FG any day. Not that I stopped with just the one camera....

moominsean

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2012, 04:36:37 AM »
Yeah i have quite a chunk of jpegs from my first digital camera and for some reason none of them will open up. They've become corrupt, don't know why. Tha doesn't happen with negatives! Particularly within 8 years.

Yeah sad how in tech if it's not an instant hit like the iphone, everyone moans about what a failure it is. Video game-wise, the 3ds was slow to start, but is now the fastest selling system. Developers avoided it because they were afraid to invest in something that didn't sell 20 million in the first week, and all the articles griped about how it failed and would continue to fail. Now the same is happening with the new playstation vita...slow initial sales so it is a failure! Not to harp on digital too much, but we have becme a society of quick return and if that doesn't happen, we look for someting "better". I usually rely more on results that i appreciate rather that what everyone else thinks they need.
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stevesegz

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2012, 08:55:59 AM »
For me I am with Leon, I don't really let other peoples choices influence my own and so don't really worry about it and drawing comparisons is not really hold relevance for me.

Commercially I don't think you have any choice having just invested £140.00 in order to be able to take a maximum of 360 6x6 black and white only images and thats without processing costs. Will the results differ that greatly to the untrained eye? The accounts just do not add up I can now do that for nothing as I already own the cards etc. a problem that now sees photographic businesses struggling as so many amateurs are now charging less and less for weddings etc and the majority are sold poor imagery based around the 'wonderment' of over processed digital images. 'Digital killed the professional photgrapher' sounds like a song!

However, I now find that my personal reasons 'participation in the creative process and enjoyment of it', the photograph, as an object, the evidence of such also now holds a wonder to those that have never used film. I gave a demonstation of LF recently to a group of kids all used to using Iphones and tech to take images. Put them under a dark cloth with their friends as the subject matter and you should have heard the ooohs and ahhhs and 'that is so cool'. This is marketable and it is this wonder of an analogue process that will atract the new analogue users long term. Why is LF seeing resurgence? Alternative process? Impossible project? all for tha same reason an interest in 'visual alchemy'

I think there is a migration towards analogue as an artist medium, digital for the masses.


If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera.  ~Lewis Hine

LT

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 10:17:05 AM »
It's really interesting to read this thread. It is something that I have been keen up until now to discourage (more like block actually), from the forum. From the start we've made it clear we are not "in to" the film v digi debate.  It just isn't relevant to Filmwasters.

BUT, we've let this one run, I've even contributed!  I was really keen to see how the thread would develop, and particularly whether the debate has changed in the 6 years or so since we started Filmwasters. I not sure it has fully ... I hoped, with Peter's striking OP reference to qualitative effects & the perception and aesthetic of film (process wise as much as end result), I hoped we might head down a different path to the old longevity/ gear based arguments (which are perfectly valid, just not new). I think film and digital have co-existed for long enough now for new voices and identities to arise. There are some cracks in the old armour - less defensive stances, people concentrating on what film offers them (even if that is just an enjoyable working process), rather than what digital does not - but I'm still not sure we are there yet.

I'm still of the mind that filmwasters is not the place for debates on why a Agfujinon IsoClack 6x9 is better than a Nikanon FEoS 111 MkIV D  - it just makes me feel like I've got APUG dirt all over me and I need a shower when I read it.  (Sorry, no offence to anyone who has discussed gear here).

Let's maybe try to keep things focused on the positive and creative side of using film (and sometimes worrying side of losing respected products :( )?

Unless you are talking about making prints, then of course, real prints are better than inkspurts  ;) ;) ;) ;)
L.

Phil Bebbington

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 10:33:13 AM »
I'm not sure that I have much to contribute, but, I do love the longevity of film, I love the feel and the noise that mechanical cameras make and I love the way that they look.

Mostly though, I love the pace that shooting film imposes on me. Mostly the pace of  shooting, the contemplating. It also reaffirms my own belief in my own abilities. The ability to take one shot and know that I have that shot - or at least believe that I have ;D

In a wider more social sense I also love the lack of the delete button that seems to be standard on film cameras!

stevesegz

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 11:09:10 AM »
''Unless you are talking about making prints, then of course, real prints are better than inkspurts''

Obviously, not even worth arguing that point!      ;D
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera.  ~Lewis Hine

stevesegz

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 11:25:32 AM »
whilst catching up on twitter just now was interested by this in ref to this thread, and its nto about equipment but how we use it.

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/01/comment-o-the-week-good-ol-days.html
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera.  ~Lewis Hine

hookstrapped

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2012, 01:26:58 PM »
It's really interesting to read this thread. It is something that I have been keen up until now to discourage (more like block actually), from the forum. From the start we've made it clear we are not "in to" the film v digi debate.  It just isn't relevant to Filmwasters.

BUT, we've let this one run, I've even contributed!  I was really keen to see how the thread would develop, and particularly whether the debate has changed in the 6 years or so since we started Filmwasters. I not sure it has fully ... I hoped, with Peter's striking OP reference to qualitative effects & the perception and aesthetic of film (process wise as much as end result), I hoped we might head down a different path to the old longevity/ gear based arguments (which are perfectly valid, just not new). I think film and digital have co-existed for long enough now for new voices and identities to arise. There are some cracks in the old armour - less defensive stances, people concentrating on what film offers them (even if that is just an enjoyable working process), rather than what digital does not - but I'm still not sure we are there yet.

I'm still of the mind that filmwasters is not the place for debates on why a Agfujinon IsoClack 6x9 is better than a Nikanon FEoS 111 MkIV D  - it just makes me feel like I've got APUG dirt all over me and I need a shower when I read it.  (Sorry, no offence to anyone who has discussed gear here).

Let's maybe try to keep things focused on the positive and creative side of using film (and sometimes worrying side of losing respected products :( )?

Unless you are talking about making prints, then of course, real prints are better than inkspurts  ;) ;) ;) ;)

Thanks, Leon.  I appreciate that.

Yeah, I was trying to get beyond the process pleasures of film versus digital, which are many and profound, to the perspective of a viewer who often feels this draw toward film images over digital.  I was just tripping on this random film grain versus regular pixel pattern idea.  I think it might even be a metaphor to the more random process of film, with film's multiple variables swept away by digital's reductive and overbearing technological control.  I love film and as with many things one loves, I'm in wonder of that love and seek to understand why I'm repeatedly smitten.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 01:43:49 PM »
I think Phil makes a really excellent point. There's little I can think of in life that couldn't benefit from being done much more slowly and with a bit more meaning and thought. Hell, if you enjoy doing it, why do it quickly and miss all the fun?

Leon's point regarding the aesthetic being the driving force behind what we do is also well made. I haven't regarded this thread as a film -v- digital debate - mainly because it hasn't been one. For me, this has been a good introspective of why love film rather than a "compare and contrast" debate or "why we don't like digital".

Hookstrapped's argument regarding randomness being more attractive to humans than the tyranny of pixel conformity certainly strikes a chord with me - and is probably the reason why Fuji is going down this route.

Ain't film great?  ;)
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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 02:55:35 PM »
Just to say, my latest favorite digicam is actually a kids toy which I cracked open to remove the infrared filter and replaced it by two layers of exposed color film leader. Now, it gives me that infrared look at 640x480 .... and all that for 50 cents :)

I know it sounds a bit weird... but that's what I do when I'm stuck home with a cold.

BTW, it was a Disney High school musical camera on which I put a big label saying Infrared just to make it look better :)
Francois

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2012, 05:14:17 PM »
I am going to give a different POV, maybe a weird one.

I shoot a decent amount of film, but I don't particularly care all that much about film itself. Let me explain that.

What I really love are the cameras themselves, and they happen to use film, so I end up using a film. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. I love my Nikon F3, the Zeiss Ikon ZM and my recently bought Leica M6, as well as a number of cheap and not so cheap compacts. Whenever I go on vacation, or I travel for work anywhere different or special, I take at least one of these three cameras as well as a digital one (Lumix GF1). In a weekend I can shoot maybe 3-4 rolls of film and maybe 200 to 300 digital pictures. And if I think back about trips that I did a year or two ago, my favourite pictures and the most memorable ones end up being black and white pictures shot in film, so I'd not forgive myself if I went anywhere without a film camera.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2012, 09:09:29 PM »
It's really interesting to read this thread. It is something that I have been keen up until now to discourage (more like block actually), from the forum. From the start we've made it clear we are not "in to" the film v digi debate.  It just isn't relevant to Filmwasters.

BUT, we've let this one run, I've even contributed!  I was really keen to see how the thread would develop, and particularly whether the debate has changed in the 6 years or so since we started Filmwasters. I not sure it has fully ... I hoped, with Peter's striking OP reference to qualitative effects & the perception and aesthetic of film (process wise as much as end result), I hoped we might head down a different path to the old longevity/ gear based arguments (which are perfectly valid, just not new). I think film and digital have co-existed for long enough now for new voices and identities to arise. There are some cracks in the old armour - less defensive stances, people concentrating on what film offers them (even if that is just an enjoyable working process), rather than what digital does not - but I'm still not sure we are there yet.

I'm still of the mind that filmwasters is not the place for debates on why a Agfujinon IsoClack 6x9 is better than a Nikanon FEoS 111 MkIV D  - it just makes me feel like I've got APUG dirt all over me and I need a shower when I read it.  (Sorry, no offence to anyone who has discussed gear here).

Let's maybe try to keep things focused on the positive and creative side of using film (and sometimes worrying side of losing respected products :( )?

Unless you are talking about making prints, then of course, real prints are better than inkspurts  ;) ;) ;) ;)

i think it's only natural to describe why you like something by talking about why you don't like the alternatives. Or if "dislike" is too strong, at least the negatives to one side are equally important (and many times the main reason) to why something else is preferred. When people talk about how great digital cameras are, saying "bad" things about film is par for the course...film is slower, film costs more money, film is more work, etc. (and usually perfectly valid reasons in all actuality). I don't think listing reasons why digital is nasty to some of us is unreasonable! Saying "I like film because digital is too cold and too fast and doesn't have the range of film, etc." is a valid form of argument.

And i'm not sure I believe film and digital co-exist. Digital is a great lumbering behemoth dragging the carcasses of film behind it. I mean, sure, film is alive and digital is alive, but they aren't dancing through the meadows hand in hand. Digital is the death of film, and possibly rightly so for many reasons in the grand scheme of advancing our future. But it obviously is what it is, regardless, and not something I spend much time thinking about. I just go out and shoot film because I like film, and I like the cameras, and i like the processes involved, all the stuff I personally don't get from digital.

it is funny watching a kid look for the screen on the back of my polaroid camera, though.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 09:30:13 PM by moominsean »
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Jack Johnson

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 02:46:23 AM »
And i'm not sure I believe film and digital co-exist. Digital is a great lumbering behemoth dragging the carcasses of film behind it. I mean, sure, film is alive and digital is alive, but they aren't dancing through the meadows hand in hand. Digital is the death of film, and possibly rightly so for many reasons in the grand scheme of advancing our future. But it obviously is what it is, regardless, and not something I spend much time thinking about. I just go out and shoot film because I like film, and I like the cameras, and i like the processes involved, all the stuff I personally don't get from digital.

It's interesting, though, because they could be dancing through the meadows. I mean, a ton of us here have some kind of hybrid workflow: scanning negatives, producing inkspurts, etc. Even Leon was asking about the quality of prints from Flickr. How many paper negs actually end up with a positive print instead of a Photoshop flip? As I watch other people's workflows with DSLR shots of negs on lightboxes, printing transparencies for cyanotypes, even movies shot on HD and transferred to film, I think there's a whole lot of dancing out there already, and I think with the best of it people are trying to keep those aesthetic values that matter to them most and, hopefully, improve the experience by improving the consistency, saving some money, or avoiding some aspect they might find tedious.

And when I think about the likely and unlikely futures, I keep thinking where's the data back that stores the EXIF info in a QR glyph (or heck, even to SD) to improve the metadata in my scans? Where's the digital back that archives the data to film for long-term storage?

But some of this is still about the gear side, right? And sometimes we say it's the photographer and not the gear, but the gear affects the image, and even if it's just pacing or nostalgia the gear affects the photographer (and sometimes the subject, for all you LF portraitists), so I would say there's this amalgam of gear and photographer that develops a certain aesthetic aspect (that may be reproducible through alternate technology, current or future), and maybe it's like meditation or happiness or love and if we're lucky, we can find that place no matter what the circumstance, and if we're less lucky we tend and prune our environment until we can find that place again. So we plant the Polaroid seed to find the mindset that allows us to take the picture that circumnavigates the picture in our head, only because for some of us the Canon and the Photoshop make it harder to find.

And, a compelling image isn't always about DoF or perfect focus or outstanding exposure, and if we wanted those things every time it might be easier with the latest DSLR. Sometimes we want the serendipity that film and certain cameras can bring to the process. Sometimes we need something to compel us to take the time to consider our subject, or the light, or the composition. Sometimes we want aspects of the image to come forth and not be detracted by the DoF or focus or exposure.

Last, we're at our best when we develop a relationship with our tools, and it's hard to develop that relationship with a tool that we expect to leave us after the honeymoon.  ;)

hookstrapped

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 04:07:45 AM »
^ ^  Real good points.  I especially relate to the serendipity of film wich is a product of both the material and the process.  I love how film surprises me with color palettes or tonality or grain structure that I can only approach through what I can control, then it's up to the chemicals to do their thing.  I still don't understand and cannot fully predict my results with film, which is why it's such a liberating counterpoint to the control / auto-control by algorithm of digital.

And I think this is all related to my original point about randomness.  There's a randomness to film at so many levels.  It's so giving, so not a passive medium.  It limits and opens doors and we each respond to that in unique ways, it does anything but simply and impassively records.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 04:09:44 AM by hookstrapped »

LT

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 08:50:36 AM »
Saying "I like film because digital is too cold and too fast and doesn't have the range of film, etc." is a valid form of argument.

You are correct Sean - and I think I said so in my post above in fact.  But I was hoping to see a more nuanced argument (can you tell I've been marking undergrad essays this week? - standard comment alert!!!) than the generalised "I had a DSLR but i didn't like it, so I'm back to film". Film is now so much more than it ever was before - it is a creative choice, rather than merely a means to take a picture, I suppose I'm interested in hearing about that side of the decision making.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 08:52:08 AM by leon taylor »
L.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 10:55:29 AM »
I used to shoot digital for my interior photography work and would never consider
using film.

FOR ME digital was so easy to use on those shoots. Easy to change the colour
balance from tungsten to daylight etc. easy to set the ISO and unlimited
frames.

Now when I went out on a saturday or sunday with the lads for some snapping
the digital camera would stay at home.

I dont have a digital camera now but since I have started restoring a motorbike
and posting the progress on a blog I want to get a digital camera again.

Shooting on film in this case is just not convenient. I might need to take
a pic of a part of the bike I have been working on, 2 or 3 images is all I need. It could be a
week before I get those images developed and scanned into the comp.

With the digital camera it is done and dusted in 30 mins, In this application i just want to get
a decent image up on the web.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 11:03:08 AM by aoluain »

Alan

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 11:02:45 AM »
... digital has its uses particularly in photo journalism and sport
and yes the manufacturers are just raking it in, every year there is a new
this ot that and your precious baby is not longer as good casue now the
new one goes up to ISO 264,000 !  ::)




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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2012, 12:49:08 PM »
Not much I can add to the debate. I much agree that choice is purely subjective, nevertheless in some situations digital is pretty convenient.

What surprises me is the degree of ferocity and self assurance I find whenever I reveal to other photographers that I shoot analogue. The digital photograoher almost never fails to prophetize that I will regret in the future having shot film. Usually these are photogtaphers that were shooting film before and now have turned to digital,  preserving their analogue equipment, longing for some never to come opportunity to use it again.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2012, 01:21:15 PM »
What I really love are the cameras themselves, and they happen to use film, so I end up using a film.

I agree to an extent - the reason I returned to film was because I loved the results of shooting with a Holga & other toy cameras.  I still have a number of "proper" film cameras (eg Hasselblad 503CX) but am drawn to the holgas and pinholes. I never really use these cameras any more and when I do I find the results lack something that I get from the holga.

That being said - would I put a holga lens on a digital camera?  No, because it's the combination of film and lens that is so attractive.

Apps like the Hipstamatic app on my iPod come close to the whole toy effect but the whole experience of shooting with that camera is abit sterile - you're not as involved with taking the shot as you are with a film camera - so it doesn't feel like photography to me (if that makes sense).



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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2012, 03:18:10 PM »
concentrating on what film offers them (even if that is just an enjoyable working process

amen to THAT! ;D
and this:

I love how film surprises me with color palettes or tonality or grain structure that I can only approach through what I can control, then it's up to the chemicals to do their thing.  I still don't understand and cannot fully predict my results with film, which is why it's such a liberating counterpoint to the control / auto-control by algorithm of digital.

I sit in front of a computer at work all day, I don't want to be forced to sit more by one just because I like to take photos ;) ok, there's the scanning process to get my shots to the online communities but I'd pay someone else to do that in a heartbeat.. if I wasn't so cheap :D atleast I like the little bit of control it gives me, it can be quite interesting to see what an image I can 'pull out' of a negative. I wish to have time to explore the same in the darkroom~

it's interesting to read the thoughts from everyone contributing here. it seems we all have our different reasons for choosing film :)
/jonas

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2012, 09:12:23 PM »
What surprises me is the degree of ferocity and self assurance I find whenever I reveal to other photographers that I shoot analogue. The digital photograoher almost never fails to prophetize that I will regret in the future having shot film. Usually these are photogtaphers that were shooting film before and now have turned to digital,  preserving their analogue equipment, longing for some never to come opportunity to use it again.

i thought about mentioning this but didn't feel like typing it up on my ipad when considering it. Most if not all film users do use digital in some form, from shooting with an iphone to scanning negatives to whatever, and though we prefer film, we mostly accept that the world is now digital. i sometimes hate being spotted by someone shooting with a digital camera because they will quite literally walk up to me and go on and on about how great digital cameras are and though some are nostalgic about my cameras, they mostly can't believe i would waste my time. i usually get some story about how they carried a 4x5 camera though the mountains for two weeks, but now look at this great little thing! i can shoot a thousand photos now! and i get 5 minutes about digital cameras and photoshop. and then they turn around and face a sunset and i hear "clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick" because you know that sunset might get away or move, better get more than one shot. amateur professional digital shooters can be quite evangelical about it. me, i rarely talk about photography with people because i always get "oh, i love to take pictures, too! i just bought a new nikon d700! i love going to the arboretum and taking pictures of flowers and hummingbirds!" and then i don't know what to say because most can't even comprehend that what i do does not involve a digital camera, and what i shoot 99 percent of the time isn't the kind of stuff that would appear on a mug or desk calendar.

in reality, i spend almost no time thinking about why i like film. it's enough for me that i do...i don't feel the need to justify anything to my own self, and i don't much care about what other people like to do in photography unless i find it interesting. i am certainly biased towards film, and am even sometimes turned off when i see a photo i like and then find out it was shot with a digital camera and printed with a laser printer. but then it is off my radar again as quickly as it was on.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 09:15:25 PM by moominsean »
"A world without Polaroid is a terrible place."
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moominsean

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2012, 09:19:03 PM »
What I really love are the cameras themselves, and they happen to use film, so I end up using a film.


Apps like the Hipstamatic app on my iPod come close to the whole toy effect but the whole experience of shooting with that camera is abit sterile - you're not as involved with taking the shot as you are with a film camera - so it doesn't feel like photography to me (if that makes sense).


yeah it's funny, i've shot what i think are some really cool photos with hipstamatic on my iphone, and i still would never consider them anything more than "neat" and would never make any effort to consider them to be, or present them as, "art" like with my film photography.
"A world without Polaroid is a terrible place."
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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2012, 09:48:39 PM »
What I really love are the cameras themselves, and they happen to use film, so I end up using a film.


Apps like the Hipstamatic app on my iPod come close to the whole toy effect but the whole experience of shooting with that camera is abit sterile - you're not as involved with taking the shot as you are with a film camera - so it doesn't feel like photography to me (if that makes sense).


yeah it's funny, i've shot what i think are some really cool photos with hipstamatic on my iphone, and i still would never consider them anything more than "neat" and would never make any effort to consider them to be, or present them as, "art" like with my film photography.

That's because y'all are shooting an iPhone instead of an Android with the awesome Vignette app.  Android pwns iPhone when it comes to phoney toy camera images.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2012, 10:44:44 PM »
I was hoping to see a more nuanced argument (can you tell I've been marking undergrad essays this week? - standard comment alert!!!) than the generalised "I had a DSLR but i didn't like it, so I'm back to film". Film is now so much more than it ever was before - it is a creative choice, rather than merely a means to take a picture, I suppose I'm interested in hearing about that side of the decision making.  

Hi Leon.

I get 100% what you're saying. However, at the bottom of it all, I am a very simple soul and quite prone to being carried along on a wave of enthusiasm for something new. Marketeers would call me an "early adopter" whereas I would just say I'm nosey and like to see what shade of green the grass is on the other side of the fence.

I positively avoid trying to rationalise why I do the things I enjoy doing for fun. If I start to think too hard about the reasons, my head hurts and it ceases to be fun. I don't do film photography as an intellectual challenge. For me, it's purely a creative and fun release from the stuff I do Mon-Fri, 9-5.

Film just feels right. Maybe it's just a comfort zone I'm not willing to leave because I love it and don't have to give it up so long as the kit keeps working and film is being produced.

Digital, for me, is totally reliant on absolutes and rules. If film ever ceased to exist as a viable medium, I would probably keep a digital camera - but it would only be for holiday snaps. I used to post regularly on other digi-based websites and forums but I got bored very quickly with the self-imposed slavery to all things new and shiny that came onto the market.

For some reason, I can be bothered to try to make interesting photos with film. With digital all I can be bothered to do is produce a faithful record of what was in front of me at the time.....
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 10:48:31 PM by Late Developer »
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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2012, 11:03:17 PM »
I'm with Paul on this one. I have no idea why I photograph what I do. I'm not good at analysing what my purpose is. On the analogue thing, well, I never really think of digital. Well, not in the context of me taking photos in any kind of creative way. Sure, I click away with my iphone and have fun and like what it does, but, it means nothing to me - film does. And yet it does without any need for a digital thought.

I love its pace like I love to wind a clock and hear it tick. I love to hold those negatives up to the light knowing that I have created something or another. Or at least the notion that I can hold it.

It feels good.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2012, 11:21:26 PM »
Film provides an element of craft to photography that I find missing with digital. The process of developing film, and then printing in the darkroom requires a physical interaction and commitment that I can't bring to photoshopping a digital image. The photo has to be coaxed into life.

After all the steps (from metering the light to developing film, through to inspecting the negatives, to assessing a series of test prints floating in a tray of water, then fine tuning with dodging & burning) I develop an actual 'relationship' with the photograph. It's a slow, intimate process that requires editing, thinking, planning and direct physical manipulation. Starting to sound a bit erotic now! But when I have a wet print I'm happy with hanging to dry, it's one of the few times I actually feel a sense of satisfaction like I've achieved something.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2012, 11:28:32 PM »
I've recently watched again movies from the original Star Wars series and the newer prequel.
It made me think about this debate. I find that the most valid argument (as far I am concerned) is the look and feel.
If you take the old Star Wars movies, not only are they better than the newer one on every level, but they were made at a time where film was everything and when special effects were really limited. I can see that some of the futuristic spaces in which the actors move are painted environments or that Yoda is a rubber puppet. But still it has this look and feel to it, that gives it more soul and in the end more realism (almost everything is made with the same quality available at the time). On the other hand the newer movies, suffer, especially if you consider them in chronological order from the advancements made in 3d technology and special effects. With every year passing our eyes get trained to 3d characters and places. The latest sets the benchmark for the most realistic effects. Some years ago the character of Gollum was considered insanely well made. Now having seen Avatar, he seems a little more artificial than before. For me the puppet, make-up and built sets will always have more life than their computer-generated counterpart. Because the next version of the software will make the previous version look artificial.
What I mean by theses examples is that with digital we are victims of the technology and it's progress. Compare the results from a same line of dslr over the years. The newest makes the older look like crap.
With film it's completely different. In the end you kind of only control half the process with film. Some part of it will always have this randomness, this serendipity hookstrapped talks about. The slightest variation in temperature, expiration dates, chemistry manipulation have effects on the resulting picture. We admire the pictures from the beginning ages of photography as the most recent silver exposures for their own qualities.
Maybe we can have too much control with digital and we don't like that. With a computer you can change every pixel in an image file the way you want it. Don't get me wrong we like control. Just talk with those people who mix their own chemistry and have mastered every stage of the analog process. But as good as you control it, because it depends on chemistry and nature, and not electrical impulses, will never produces twice the same thing. And I think we like the surprise, the uniqueness. In some way, instant photography is kind of an extreme of that.

I don't know if any of what i wrote made sense. If not, please disregard it. In the end, what I'm trying to say is that we can all agree that we like the way film looks, even if we cannot explain it. And I'm glad I can share that feeling with other human beings.

edit: I agree with mickld, sometimes film (as a process) feels closer to painting than digital photography
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 11:30:44 PM by johann »

Jeff Warden

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2012, 01:42:36 AM »
What I like about photography is that it engages the mind fully in the pursuit of art.  In order to go full circle and properly expose/develop/wet print you need to use both sides of your brain (and a good amount of patience), which is quite different from drawing and painting (at least the way I do it). 

There is always some small, nice surprise when the film is developed.  Another when the contact print is made.  And such satisfaction with the final prints after the labor of love in the darkroom. 

As for the nitty-gritty, I agree with Peter that there is a wonderful, seeming randomness to the placement of grain in an image, which is revealed as sharpness and detail only when you zoom out.  It's just damned amazing to me, the whole lot of it.

Jack Johnson

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2012, 04:14:10 AM »
I shoot film because when the aliens invade the electromagnetic signature from their ships will render digital cameras useless, significantly increasing the odds that I will win a Pulitzer for my photography. All you toy camera addicts will lament your lack of aperture options when I'm bringing home the big prize, baby!

Plus, our new overlords will want something to commemorate the event. It's all about product monetization.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2012, 09:33:37 AM »
I shoot film because when the aliens invade the electromagnetic signature from their ships will render digital cameras useless, significantly increasing the odds that I will win a Pulitzer for my photography. All you toy camera addicts will lament your lack of aperture options when I'm bringing home the big prize, baby!

Plus, our new overlords will want something to commemorate the event. It's all about product monetization.

Discussion over, case closed!! ;D

Hey I heard on the news today that with all the recent solar activity, causing the aurora borealis to appear as far south as Newcastle, it might start to interfere with electronic equipment... so it's already started then!  ;)
When people ask what equipment I use - I tell them my eyes.

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Re: What makes film so attractive?
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2012, 09:04:19 AM »
Film provides an element of craft to photography that I find missing with digital. The process of developing film, and then printing in the darkroom requires a physical interaction and commitment that I can't bring to photoshopping a digital image. The photo has to be coaxed into life.

After all the steps (from metering the light to developing film, through to inspecting the negatives, to assessing a series of test prints floating in a tray of water, then fine tuning with dodging & burning) I develop an actual 'relationship' with the photograph. It's a slow, intimate process that requires editing, thinking, planning and direct physical manipulation. Starting to sound a bit erotic now! But when I have a wet print I'm happy with hanging to dry, it's one of the few times I actually feel a sense of satisfaction like I've achieved something.

Amen. For me it is more like producing a sculpture then the image. The finished object is not the image. It is a sum of all the chemicals, methods, tones of papers, textures of papers, differing thought processes that all blend to produce a physical object. A photograph. Most workflows that remove this process for me produce sterility and the final objects 'if' they are produced have no soul.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera.  ~Lewis Hine