Author Topic: Pyro Developing  (Read 17004 times)

Mojave

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Pyro Developing
« on: October 14, 2011, 03:57:38 PM »
Has anybody here ever tried this type of developing? Just found out about it from a Freestyle mailer and a friend of mine is going to try it but was told the setup is very meticulous. It sounds like a great developer but the whole meticulous setup thing makes me wonder if it would be worth it.
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LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 04:59:19 PM »
Erin - I primarily use Pyrocatechol based developers.  It gives a brownish stain on most film, is extremely economical has the tanning effect that leads to quite a degree of compensation allowing v contrasty negs to be easier scanned/ printed. The negs look quite thin, but this is misleading as the stain becomes part of the image forming density and adds to the image)

It is utterly easy to use, although can be a bit finicky if your water source isn't too clean.

You can buy it as "precyscol", "pyrocat HD", "DiXactol", "Exactol Lux", "Windisch" and a few other formulations. I think the photographers formulary sell all of these (they used to at least).

They other type of Pyro is Pyrogallol/ Pyrogallic acid (PMK, Rollo Pyro, ABC Pyro, WD2D+ etc).  I've not used this, but I have printed from negs developed in it and can say it is great - I don't think it is as forgiving as pyrocatechol from what I understand. And I also understand it is more damaging to the environment/ toxic, but you might want to investigate that further. It gives a more yellowy/ greenish stain, although has the tanning effect giving the compensation.  It does have a higher grain result compared with pyrocatechol, so if chunky grain isn't your thing, you might want to try the catechol devs if you are going down the pyro route.

Many people say they can't tell the difference between ID11/ d76 and pyro negs, but I can personally say I do,  The control I have over highlight tones is way beyond anything I've managed with standard developers.  The negatives print amazingly easily, and the edge sharpness/ acutance is extremely sharp compared to other types.

others are bound to disagree though.  I suppose the final result has to be the deciding factor - if you are happy with your current results, then why change?

L.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 05:02:34 PM by leon taylor »
L.

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »
Wow! Thank you so much Leon!!! I am in that category of happy that resides in the land of ignorance. I simply dont know any better when it comes to what is really good where my negatives are concerned. I havent experimented enough with other developers to see if I could actually improve my results or not. The idea of getting more detail from my highlights sounds very promising to me so I will see if Freestyle has any of the developers you mentioned. They have a large selection so Im hoping I will find the devs you used.

I think the only thing that worries me about toning down the highlights to get more detail out of them is losing that glow I see in the highlights on film. But, I still want to try it and see.

Thanks again for such a wonderfully detailed reply!
mojave

Karl

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 05:21:51 PM »
I can'y add much to Leon's overview really, but I did use Moersch Tanol for a while, which seems like a milder version of the other pyro based concoctions and stains the neg a greeny brown hue. If I had to compare it to anything then the subsequent negative is a more like xp2 or CN400 negatives - smooth, fine grain and the highlights are better to print/scan.
Message to self: buy some more! I've just been happy enough with XTOL.
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LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 05:22:37 PM »
don't worry about glow Erin - the negs will shine as long as they are exposed properly.  I find that pyrocat negs work better if they are a bit over exposed to set the shadow tones, then let the developer do it's magic in the highlights.

Effectively, the harder the developer works, the more it hardens the film gelatine.  This prevents the more active areas from taking in more developer and developing too much.  the most active areas in film development are the highlights (densest part of the negative) so these are curtailed proportionately, whilst the shadows continue to build slowly and are tanned less severely.  It works really well on a roll of film where all shots are made in very different lighting conditions as the compensation allows them all to develop to a "close to perfect" amount.

It works in a similar way to stand development, but does the job much quicker.
L.

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2011, 07:37:35 PM »
Sadly, I need to agree with Leon  ;)

Pryo negs are easy to print.  It is difficult to lose the highlight detail in the neg but there is no need to be complacent about exposure.  I've used Pyrocat HD for some time and there are on number of versions and ways to use it too.  Very cheap and easy to make up yourself and very economical.  Do a search on Sandy King or start by reading this article: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

A number of people recommend Rollo Pyro as being the best to use in rotary processors but I can't remember why.

LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 07:44:43 PM »
Sadly, I need to agree with Leon  ;)

Why so sad Carl?  I see it as a righteous and joyous occasion.
L.

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 07:52:33 PM »
Sadly, I need to agree with Leon  ;)

Why so sad Carl?  I see it as a righteous and joyous occasion.

In fact, in celebration of our cordial agreement I am going to dev some film in pyro over the weekend and post the results.  I have taken some 5x4 film out of the freezer to defrost - dusted down a nice pinhole camera that has been serving as an ornament for too long and put it to use whilst I am digging up at the allotment tomorrow - after watching the rugby that is :)  Starting to have a nagging doubt that I do not have potassium carbonate!!!

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 07:55:53 PM »
Ok, so it sounds like Pyrocat HD is the way to go. Is that a good dev to start with?
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Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 07:57:35 PM »
Starting to have a nagging doubt that I do not have potassium carbonate!!!

Is that chem for your wet plate Carl?
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CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 08:11:09 PM »
Starting to have a nagging doubt that I do not have potassium carbonate!!!

Is that chem for your wet plate Carl?

No - pot carb is the Part B solution for pryocat hd.  I have made my own developers for film for a long time.  recently I did have a play with Kodak Xtol but I just like getting my hands dirty :)

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 08:13:05 PM »
Another interesting article - the recipe is at the bottom of the page: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PC-HD/pc-hd.html

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 08:30:02 PM »
So is pyrocat hd a combination of chemicals then? What am I looking for when shopping for it? Sorry if these are stupid questions.  ;D
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LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 08:44:47 PM »
What a superb way to celebrate Carl (other than the rugby thing - rugby only means vertical hail stinging red sore legs, teacher screaming abuse, getting neck wrenched in scrum, kit caked in mud, then the dreaded shower  - nightmares are made of kinder things!). I think I'll join you in that idea.

Erin, Pyrocat is economical enough when bought ready mixed, but buy the chems and mix it yourself, and you'll really be saving the pennies. THere's something really satisfying about using chems you;ve mixed yourself.

See Carl, another accord. Are you feeling the love?  ;D
L.

LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 08:45:54 PM »
So is pyrocat hd a combination of chemicals then? What am I looking for when shopping for it? Sorry if these are stupid questions.  ;D

If you want to buy it ready mixed, just search for Pyrocat HD.  If you want mix it yourself, get the formula from Carls link and have a go. 
L.

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2011, 05:58:20 PM »
Pyro made - negs processed - now drying - hopefully scanned later this evening or it'll be Monday.  It'd be nice to make some straight contact prints and a proper print from one of them.  Lets see.

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2011, 06:13:08 PM »
Looking forward to seeing what you made Carl.  ;D

I think I'll go with the ready made dev. Going to do a search right now.

Thanks for all the info gentlemen!
mojave

Phil Bebbington

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 06:50:40 PM »
Fascinating thread and Carl, man, you move fast!

The links were great. There were times when I had no idea what I was reading, but, read them I did. Pyro has oddly drawn me in - is that good?

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2011, 07:08:38 PM »
Fascinating thread and Carl, man, you move fast!

The links were great. There were times when I had no idea what I was reading, but, read them I did. Pyro has oddly drawn me in - is that good?

I think its good, seeing as how its drawn me in too. I would hate to think I've made a bad decision on it.  ;D
mojave

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2011, 07:19:23 PM »
There is no magic bullet!  Pyro is cheap, easy to use, forgiving - especially with overexposed highlights and has added density that help with alternative processes.  Its not so easy to get good neg scans from though but there are lots of threads around purely on this subject too.

Phil Bebbington

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2011, 07:20:57 PM »
Well, as I scan I guess I'd be better to leave well alone!

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2011, 07:23:57 PM »
I scan too but, I also do alternative process printing so perhaps the pyro will be good for 4x5 film and then I can turn that into a gum bichromate. I am very intrigued!
mojave

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2011, 08:19:01 PM »
Not todays pinhole efforts but these are two of my Colleagues series that I am working on.  Not sure if they have been posted before but they are both from Ilford film and Pyrocat HD.  Printed on Ilford Warmtone Matt.


Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2011, 09:00:48 PM »
Carl, those portraits are just stunning! I love the creamy, warm tones and I see lots of detail in the bright areas.
mojave

Phil Bebbington

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2011, 10:58:19 PM »
Lovely work, Carl and as Erin said, creamy and lovely. I'm assuming print scans rather than negative scans?

Would those need to be treated differently?

Phil Bebbington

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2011, 05:47:24 PM »
This is quite an interesting read regarding the scanning of Pyro Negatives.

http://www.picture-box.com/eddie1.html


LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2011, 06:11:56 PM »
This is quite an interesting read regarding the scanning of Pyro Negatives.

http://www.picture-box.com/eddie1.html



Nice find Phil - bear in mind this is about PMK pyro, so has the Pyrogallol greeny colour as opposed to the browny Pyrocatechol colour. Not sure how that would affect the choice of colour channel?  I think that Peter Hogan, who makes Precyscol developer (catechol based) suggests a similar approach to scanning with his developer - e.g. scan in colour then select the appropriate channel etc.

Nice portraits carl - especially like the skin tones in number 2.
L.

Phil Bebbington

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2011, 10:10:52 PM »
Just saw this beautiful scan over at Flickr. Man!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/squaredcircle/6246067305/#


moominsean

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 12:57:50 AM »
Been thinking about pyro for awhile, maybe now is the time to try! I found hc110 to be a bit finicky...worked well sometimes, other times not. Small variables seemed to make a big difference. Usually I just use d76.
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LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2011, 09:15:05 AM »
Carl (or anyone else) - do you remember a while ago that Sandy King (Mr Pyrocat himself), along with a few others, were going to review the claim that catechol and pyrogallol stains had a further compensating effect when printing on MG papers - the so called proportional Safelight effect? It was accepted that this works with the blue light that graded papers use, but there was always some question whether the same was true for MG papers?

I seem to recall the response was that catechol stain (in particular) does have a positive effect in MG papers between grades 00-3.5.  So effectively the basic exposure automatically includes a highlight burn, bringing in detail that just wouldn't be there using a conventionally developed neg? But this was apparently lost at grades 4-5 due to the filter colours cancelling out the particular light colour form the stain.  

But I can't find this information anywhere - so maybe I dreamt it? (I know, what an EXCITING dream).

Any thoughts?
L.

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 12:22:25 PM »
The logic appears sound but I have not heard of this.  How about posing it to Sandy King direct - he is pretty good at responding to direct questions.  Even a trawl of DPUG - can't do it whilst at work though :)

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 02:29:56 PM »
this might just be a very dumb question...
but I get kind of dense (and often hard to scan) negs when developing caffenol. does that base fog help too? I presume the developing of the film is a whole other process chemically but it would be interesting to know. I think I have gotten some interesting prints from my most dense negs that I almost never thought would give any proper image.
/jonas

Francois

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2011, 03:49:09 PM »
I seem to recall the response was that catechol stain (in particular) does have a positive effect in MG papers between grades 00-3.5.  So effectively the basic exposure automatically includes a highlight burn, bringing in detail that just wouldn't be there using a conventionally developed neg? But this was apparently lost at grades 4-5 due to the filter colours cancelling out the particular light colour form the stain.  

But I can't find this information anywhere - so maybe I dreamt it? (I know, what an EXCITING dream).


There could be some truth into this. I remember that some of the old Arista cold heads had a green and a blue cathode to handle multigrade paper. The green cathode was for the higher contrasts (3 and up) and the blue cathode for the lower grades. They used opposite colors to the regular filter pack and it just worked. A similar effect could be at play here...
Francois

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CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2011, 08:28:26 PM »
The following is copied from a thread in DPUG written by Sandy King - as its in the public domain I am sure he wouldn't mind me sharing it here:

"For what it is worth I just made a comparison of a 6X12 cm B&W negative developed in Pyrocat-HD with the Epson V700, one scan in RGB, the other in Grayscale. I scanned both at 6400 spi, then reduced the size to 2540 spi for the comparison. After scanning I copied the Red, Green and Blue channels and compared each of them at high magnification with the same area of the scan made in Grayscale.

I found virtually no difference in either sharpness or grain between any of the three color channels or the grayscale file. If push came to shove I would say that the green channel had slightly finer grain than the grayscale file or the red and blue channels but in order to see the difference in a print would require a huge enlargement on the order of more than 10-15X.

My personal conclusion is that it would be pretty much a waste of my file space to scan with the V700 a B&W negative developed in a staining developer in RGB since there is virtually no difference in image quality from scan in grayscale.

Sandy King"

LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2011, 09:00:21 PM »
interesting stuff Carl. I only scan negs for web display, and usually only in greys cal ... it's good to hear that, in Sandy's opinion at least, I am doing the right thing!

ON the issue with VC papers, I found this from Sandy on Apug in answer to a question I asked there a while ago.  Good to see I'm not imagining things :)

"film processed in Pyrocat, and many staining developers, has a stain that acts like a filter. The color of the Pyrocat stain is almost always brown. In fact, it can look almost neutral in color. However, the color of the stain is a filter that restricts the passage of blue light, effectively increasing the density of the negative, and its DR, *to the blue sensitive high contrast part of a VC emulsion.* However, the stain does not impede the passage of green light so it has very little effect on the green sensitive part of the VC emulsion. The net effect is that as shoulder density increases less blue (high contrast) light can affect the VC emulsion, while the green sensitive layer remains unaffected. This results in highlight compensation …. VC papers have a Green sensitive (low contrast) and Blue sensitive (high contrast) layers. As you increase the filter number the magenta is increased to the point where the green layer no longer has any impact on the print. This happens somewhwere between Filter #3 and #4, depnding on which VC filter set you are using. This means, to put it simply, that when using a filter of #4 or higher, the stained negative will give the same results in terms of contrast as a non-stained negative."
L.

original_ann

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2011, 10:59:59 PM »
What a fascinating and inspiring thread (thanks Erin for starting it and thanks to Leon and Carl for the wisdom).  I feel like I've just ridden a rollercoaster, going from 'Awesome!  I'm going to give this a go! to 'Not as effective when scanning negatives? Sighhh, Guess I'll just admire from afar...  Just love the creamy-dreamy brown tones. 

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2011, 07:07:10 PM »
Might have taken this too far.  New V750 scanner arrives tomorrow and two rolls of 120 exposed as part of my colleagues project ready to be souped over the weekend.  Now the two new lenses for the con tax 645 have really broken into the santa savings :-)

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2011, 07:34:39 PM »
Holy smokes, I've been away for a few days and missed so much! I have some catching up to do.
mojave

Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2011, 07:39:38 PM »
Just saw this beautiful scan over at Flickr. Man!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/squaredcircle/6246067305/#



Ok, so then what Im gathering from this image and the other posts is that pyrocat HD does work well if you are going to scan your images but that maybe you need a top notch scanner, which I dont have. But even with my little scanner, shouldnt there still be a benefit to using this developer? Will the highlight details not look any different with a cheap scanner?
mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2011, 01:24:46 AM »
First time is PMK Pyro today. Not sure if I did a bad by putting two rolls of 120 on a spool. Doesn't matter with D-76, but I think maybe Pyro has a ratio per film area? The negs were very thin, which I've read is normal, but my Epson 4490 really didn't like them. Lots of ugly scan lines in the sky on some shots. I also noticed some posterization in the unfocused areas. This is Tmax 100 shot with the Bronica and 40mm lens. It does make a very fine grained negative. Here are a couple that worked okay...
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Mojave

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2011, 01:37:54 AM »
Gorgeous!!! And more creamy tones. And yes, very fine grain. Ok, I gotta try this stuff.
mojave

LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2011, 09:38:18 AM »
looks/ sounds like film speed loss to me Sean.  You probably need to rate the film at a slower speed to get the exposure right in this developer. I've not used the pyrogallol types, but I understand there is generally a speed loss with pyro type developers. I definitely find that there is with pyrocat hd, although only about 2/3 stop.
L.

Francois

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2011, 03:50:51 PM »
Also, using PMK, don't forget to keep the used-up developer and pour it back in the tank after fixing to increase the density of the stain...
Francois

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LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2011, 03:56:12 PM »
Also, using PMK, don't forget to keep the used-up developer and pour it back in the tank after fixing to increase the density of the stain...

I think it is pretty much accepted that this is a myth with no real advantages or extra effect Francois. In any case, all it would do is increase the overall staining of the gelatine, a bit like base fog, as any of the reaction that causes the proportionate stain only takes place when the silver is being developed. As any undeveloped silver has been taken out by the fix, there is nothing else to cause the staining reaction.  You just end up with a base stain that takes longer to print through.
L.

LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2011, 04:03:25 PM »
BTW sean, the developer needed to cover a 120 film reel would be plenty to dev two 120 rolls on the same reel.
L.

Francois

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2011, 04:13:39 PM »
I always thought PMK proportionally hardened the gelatin which made the stain take hold unevenly instead of creating a simple fog?

Though I must say I've never used the stuff. It's very hard to get in my neck of the woods.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2011, 04:23:47 PM »
yes - all pyro developers tan as well as stain.  My understanding is that although the stain will happen anywhere to some degree (just look at the darkroom sink of anyone who uses tan and stain developers), it happens most effectively when the developer is working harder (highlights). The developer also tans, which then prevents the developer from entering the gelatine, and this is also proportionate as the harder it works, the harder it tans.

BUT, by the time you have finished, the highlights have been curtailed by the tan, and so have the shadows to a slightly lesser degree as you have brought them to where you want them.

you then wash out the developer, and dissolve the remaining silver in fixing. From this point, any re-soak in developer will only provide a week general stain like it does to the darkroom sink - as there is no longer any silver to make the developer active.  AFAIK, the developer no longer tans as it is no longer developing any silver. there may be a slight difference in how the after-bath affects the tonal scale proportionately, but as it is not "active" it will be minimal. The good stuff happens when the film is developing.
L.

Francois

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2011, 05:09:37 PM »
The after-fixing staining is probably very sensitive to the type of fixer used. A hardening fixer would pretty much cause the staining to be just a fog while a non-hardening fixer would give a more useful staining...
Francois

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LT

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2011, 05:18:35 PM »
the general consensus is that is makes very little difference Francois. It's just one of those old practises that get perpetuated without any real benefit.  Like using hypo clear before washing film.

Acidic chemicals (esp fixers) are supposed to reduce stain, so people like Peter Hogan suggest using alkaline fix and stop - but again, I think it is such a minimal effect that its not really worth worrying about. I certainly get plenty of stain and use Hypam which is a slightly acid fixer. But this has nothing particularly to do with stain after-baths.
L.

CarlRadford

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Re: Pyro Developing
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2011, 07:58:54 PM »
I tend to use plain water as stop and any fix although alkaline is recommended - just don't over fix.