Topic: Rangefinder Choices........

[Late Developer]

Thanks to some words of wisdom on a previous thread, I've managed to persuade Mrs LD to take the plunge and go for an independent and somewhat intrepid (for us) trip to Thailand later this year as part of our joint 50th/40th birthday celebrations.

The next decision (a nice one to have) is what camera to take. I've got lots of lumpy and heavy gear - but I need to travel light. So, I'm looking for a rangefinder and a couple of lenses.

I've owned a Leica M6 before and a Canadian Summicron-M 35mm and was very happy with both. However, I sort of fancy something a bit different. Camera-wise, I've narrowed it down to one of the following:

- Leica M5 (a bit of an ugly duckling but has a reputation of being a good shooter's camera)
- Zeiss Ikon
- Voigtlander R4A/R4M

As far as lenses are concerned, I'm looking at one wide / one standard from the following:

- Voigtlander 21mm f4 Color Skopar
- Zeiss Biogon 28mm f2.8
- Zeiss Biogon 50mm f2
- Leica Summicron-M 50mm f2

However, never having used any of these, I wondered if anyone had any advice on which to get / which to avoid or, alteratives.

I was thinking about using slide film but I want something a bit more forgiving, so I think it's probably down to a combo of 160 / 400 ISO (either Fuji or Kodak).

I would be very grateful for any tips or prompts you might have. The camera body needs to have a built-in meter as I don't want to have to lug a light meter with me and the longer lens needs to be capable of portraits as well as low-light street scenes - so something no slower than f2.

Thanks. Paul.

[choppert]

Do either the Ikon or Bessa have aperture priority and manual modes?  If so, I'd take one of them instead of the M5.  I really miss having Av on the M6!  Takes away a bit of the spontinaity (which you'll have plenty of in Thailand)

As for the standard lens - you can't leave the 'cron at home!  It's just too damn fab not to go on a nice little holiday with you.

Only other thing to recommend would be a night at the Banyan Tree in Bangkok.  It was simply stunning!

Chops

[Late Developer]

Cheers Chops.

I don't have any of this gear yet. Doesn't the Leica M5 have Av and manual modes, then? I know it was Leica's first camera to offer TTL metering (in 1971....) so I'm assuming that would be based on aperture priority with the option to override and go manual.

Lens-wise, I'm leaning towards the 21mm f4 Voigtlander for scenics and other street / wide shots and the 'Cron looks like the fave for the 50mm choice. However (and it's a big HOWEVER) the 'Cron I've seen is second-hand and about the same price as a new Zeiss Biogon. If the 'Cron goes before I get the money together, it's probably going to be the Zeiss. Mind you, there's there's always others coming along at the sort of price I'm looking to pay....

The R4A/R4M body has a distinct advantage as it has a wide (.52) magnification viewfinder and has bright lines for a 21mm lens as well as 28mm (so no need for a separate viewfinder for the Color Skopar if I go down that route). The Zeiss Ikon starts at 28mm (although there is a cheaper, "super wide" version without a built-in viewfinder / rangefinder. But that's really for someone who does virtually all 15mm - 21mm shooting - and that's not me).

If I go for the Zeiss Ikon body, I might also go for both Biogons. No particular reason other than it's all designed for use together and I doubt you can go wrong with Zeiss T* lenses.

[Pete_R]

The ZI has aperture priority. Only the M7 of the M series has it.

[Francois]

The Zeiss-Ikon has a wider than normal body (wider than the Leicas), a bit like the old Contax. This gives more space for the rangefinder which is said to be easier to focus than any other rangefinder.

[Pete_R]

The Zeiss-Ikon has a wider than normal body (wider than the Leicas), a bit like the old Contax. This gives more space for the rangefinder which is said to be easier to focus than any other rangefinder.

Not sure how much difference it actually makes. I don't find it easier than any other rangefinder, but it may be more accurate with longer lenses. One problem with the ZI viewfinder (OK two) is that you have to have your eye central to see the focussing patch. If you have your eye slightly off the patch disappears. And the other thing is the exposure information is very difficult to see.

Edit... and another thing (not sure why I bought one now) I find the 28mm frame lines difficult to see.

[gregor]

The Konica Hexar is a fine RF that's under-rated outside of Japan.  I often think of swapping out my M2 body for one of these:

http://www.cameraquest.com/konicam.htm

Probably the only thing that's stopping me is concerns about ANY camera with electrical systems....

[DS]

I've got an M5- I love it but realise it's not for everyone. It's very quiet, very fast to shoot and generally the size fits in my hands a bit better than the standard m bodies. The meter display is my favourite of any camera ever. I like that I got it cheap more though!

As for ugly - I think it kinda beautiful in a very utilitarian way.

[Late Developer]

DS

I wasn't intending to be disrespectful towards the M5 when I called it an ugly duckling. As you so rightly put it, it's utilitarian and, for me, that is worth more than a fancy piano black paint job. I actually want the camera to do a job as I don't ever see cameras as jewellery.

It's interesting what you say about the handling as I found my old M6 a bit small and not the easiest to grip securely. I'm also intrigued with what you say about the viewfinder readout.

Gregor

I really like the look of the Hexar but I really want to get away from battery dependency and power wind / rewind.

Peter R

The Zeiss Ikon is a real "looker" in my eyes. I know you have issues with it but I doubt there's a camera out there that's perfect - especially a rangefinder.

Chops / Matt

If I can afford them, I would love to have all Leica lenses. Having owned the 35mm 'Cron-M, I'm hooked on the colour rendition and the blurry background thingy (nearly said bokeh, then....dammit). However, I've also seen some output from the Zeiss Biogon range which, to be honest, looks very similar but at a much reduced cost.

Overall, I also like the Voigtlander R4M for the reasons outlined in my earlier post. So, I can't wait to get my mitts on a few examples and see which fits the mitts as well as the wallet.

[DS]

It's interesting what you say about the handling as I found my old M6 a bit small and not the easiest to grip securely. I'm also intrigued with what you say about the viewfinder readout.

I found the same with the other M Leicas I played with- but it is big and heavy- it makes my Nikkormat look petite (but the lenses are tiny in comparison). I find the weight helps steady the camera though.

As for the metering- it has a sort of spot meter (not very with the 35mm I use most of the time)- the readout is two needles- one moves when you change the shutter speed, the other with the aperture. When they cross the exposure is correct. There's no numbers on the scale but you very quickly learn to gauge how far over / under you are. It'll meter down to 30s on bulb.
The shutter speeds are visible in the viewfinder and the dial for the speeds overhangs the body right where your middle finger rests making it really quick and easy to change speeds with the camera up to your eye. The oft-maligned vertical strap lugs are good too- the camera hangs very decisively with a debonair attitude when slung over the shoulder and the strap is out of the way when taking piccies
It's a shame that Leica obviously set out to design a practical camera made for shooting that people hated because it departed from tradition. I love it. Can't wait for my current work hell to be over and get a chance to shoot more with it...

I also like the Bessas- but the R4 is a bit odd- if you plan to use a 50mm a lot on it beware the framelines are tiny- like a 90mm ish frame on a normal .72x vf.

[Mil Mascaras]

I bought the Zeiss Ikon half a year ago or so and find it an absolute joy to handle. Peter's comments are spot on, though. If I want to take a vertical photo I have to focus and read the meterings horizontally, and then frame it vertically. Looks kind of silly until it becomes second nature. The camera is very light which can be a plus or a minus. For me it's a plus, but some people like the solid feeling of a Leica. It's a wonderful camera to shoot pictures and (at least in Europe) sometimes you get good deals on German shops on the 'bay.

I am considering a Hexar RF as a second body. There's a feature that lets you change rolls mid film. You shoot, say, 15 pictures, the camera will wind the film back and later you can return to any frame with +/-1 mm accuracy. I have also read that with it you consistenly get around 38 shots per roll!

[Dave Dunne]

Do either the Ikon or Bessa have aperture priority and manual modes? 

The Bessa R4A has aperture priority.

The camera body needs to have a built-in meter as I don't want to have to lug a light meter with me

The Sekonic L-208 is very small and light so you won't notice carrying it.

[Jeff Warden]

I've been using the Ikon for about nine months now and like it very much. 

I haven't experienced any problems with the focusing patch as mentioned by others, but I would echo the complaints about the difficult to read exposure information.  In normal or dim light it's easy to see, but if you're aiming into a bright area the display disappears.  For me it's a minor issue.

The viewfinder is superb.  The 28mm framelines are way out at the edges of the viewfinder so that would take some getting used to.

I use the ZM 35/2.0 Biogon  and the ZM 50/1.5 Sonnar, my only lenses.  They're both excellent.

The shutter noise is noticeable in quiet situations, making a metallic *clack* sound.  Not a problem for me but if you're trying to be stealthy that noise wouldn't help.

You mentioned battery dependence.  The Ikon won't work without them, and they tend to go through them quickly, just fyi.

Previously I used a Contax G2 for a decade.  That camera was auto everything, and I loved it.  The Zeiss is mostly manual and back-to-basics, and I like that too.  I just like everything.  :-)

Good luck with the search,

Jeff

[Skorj]

I have two lenses for my Bessa, but really only use one, the 21mm f2.8 Avenon. I have the Voigtlander 21mm, but though it is a lot smaller, it is only f4, so is now un-used.



The only other regularly used lens is the 45mm S.C f1.4 for indoor work. Ektar 100, and FujiPro 400 would be my color choices, with XP2 Super as the B&W.

More on this configuration here: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=772.0

Good luck! Skj.