Topic: Call for new compact creation

[Faintandfuzzy]

An interesting article appeared at the Japan Camera Hunter blog.  Any thoughts on the chance of maybe Fuji, Ricoh, or some other company taking a chance on a new compact?

http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2017/05/compact-cameras-future/

[Francois]

Unless it can also do phone calls, I really doubt it...
My guess is that it will take a new player in the field to bring back a good film point & shoot.

But if somebody was to take time to listen, I do have a dream camera in mind.
The camera would strangely be electronic if only to simplify the speed control and would use an Adafruit Trinket or an Arduino Pro Mini 328 as a controller.
This would do all the operations and since it's a generic part, it would be easily upgradeable, replaceable, hackable. It could also handle an exposure meter.
The lens would be a simple Tessar. Simple and sharp. Shutter would be electromagnetic. On top would be a rotary encoder for the available shutter speeds. Apertures could be controlled by simple waterhouse stops on a turret that's hooked-up to a type of rotary selector switch of encoder so that the built-in meter would know the exposure to use. It would be even better if it used a cell pointed at a white painted shutter to gauge the exposure a bit like on the Leica M6.
The whole thing would run on AA batteries that are super cheap and easy to find.

[John Robison]

The problem is......
Everyone's idea of an ideal compact camera is different.
Francois idea is electronic control, something that makes me gag. It needs a BATTERY?!?!. To even operate!!

Now I'm not saying Francois is necessarily wrong, or that I'm right. I just wouldn't be interested.......at all!

To me, the almost perfect compact was the Olympus RC. Semi auto, battery only for meter. Full Manual available at any time.
The RC needs;
A standard, available filter size. (drop the stupid 43.5mm, make it 43mm)
A silver oxide meter battery.
Increase RF separation by 15mm and close focusing to 24inchs (.6 meters) If this means you have to drop the built in self timer to make room then do that.
The 42mm lens is just right.
Why reinvent the wheel?

Unfortunately this effort would probably have to be priced at $300~$400 and and only a few would be willing to pay over $200
In 1976 they sold for $80 and adjusted for inflation that is $350 today. And, back then they made a gazillion of them and that helped keep the price reasonable, now, I don't think there is enough customer base to support more than 15~30K world wide and I think that figure could be too optimistic.

[Faintandfuzzy]

I'd be curious to see what the market would take for a cost. 

[hidaniel]

I just don't see something like this being viable. Instant film is barely alive and that provides immediate gratification of a tangible image a few minutes after you've taken a picture. The supposed 35mm 'resurgence' is based on nostalgia and desire to differentiate oneself from the commodification of photography brought on by digital and the internet. Too few would be willing to pay 350$ for a new compact camera, which at that price would likely would be full of compromises, especially when you can pick up a point and shoot from a thrift store for 5$ or less and nor would come with the cachet cool of a 1970s SLR.

[John Robison]

Instant film is barely alive.....

Peel apart is gone but Fuji cannot make enough of the Instax stuff. They just brought out another format and fancy new camera for it. Instax is the one bright spot in Fujiflim's film line up and the only significant film product thats growing. A recent Kickstarter was for a cardboard bodied camera using Instax Mini film. They raised $377K from over 6K backers for over 8K cameras each one of which will include one pack of Instax Mini film. Maybe it's just a fad, but so far instant is growing fast.

[Flippy]

Remember the Voigtlander Bessa L? No rangefinder, clip on viewfinder, TTL meter, not a compact by definition, but in a technical sense basically may as well have been, price when new was $460. Cosina hasn't made them for a while. If it were viable to make something like this, they'd probably still be making them. JCH is in his own bubble unfortunately, real world demand just isn't very high.

[hidaniel]

Peel apart is gone but Fuji cannot make enough of the Instax stuff.

That's what's worrying. People who are actually interested in serious photography aren't seen as a viable market. Instead Fuji is pandering to the nostalgia factor of instant film. It's a big if to me whether that's a sustainable market. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

[Francois]

Remember the Voigtlander Bessa L?

I remember very well. It's basically an electronic version of my Leica 1C (that needs an overhaul)...

The only reason I would tend to go for the electronic route for a modern point & shoot is the simplicity of it all. Building an escapement shutter is hard; and hard means expensive to produce. On the other hand, an arduino that can be had for under 10$ at retail would help in bringing the cost down.

The big problem with making a modern camera is cost control. The machining and fabrication shops that made it possible to make small mechanical marvels like we all love have all but disappeared. Making a good mechanical point & shoot would probably cost not much less than a Leica MP these days... Just look at the cost of new Compur and Copal shutters for large format. That is what can be expected. So in order to make it actually possible to make something affordable, it is imperative that we look at the good design elements present in low cost cameras and simply stick a fantastic lens on the whole thing.

[Kai-san]

Remember the Voigtlander Bessa L? No rangefinder, clip on viewfinder, TTL meter, not a compact by definition, but in a technical sense basically may as well have been, price when new was $460. Cosina hasn't made them for a while. If it were viable to make something like this, they'd probably still be making them. JCH is in his own bubble unfortunately, real world demand just isn't very high.

What is viable? If you are thinking the kind of returns that the Fuji stockholders are demanding, almost nothing is viable. By those standards Impossible wouldn't exist, nor would New Ferrania. And Kodak would never have launched a brand new Super 8 camera last year. There are investors out there who would back something like this and be happy with less profit, you just need to find them. And to persuade them you would need a team of enthusiastic people who could see it through. So yes, it could happen.
Of course we would never agree on a design or specs, but then the camera industry was never about democracy. You had to take what you could get for the money you had and be satisfied with that. 
What is needed is a striking design that would make people want to own it, better quality than Lomo and correct pricing. A camera like this would not be meant for documenting, advertising or professional needs, for that you would use digital. This would be for the creative crowd, for those who wants fun and stand out from the masses. Nothing new there really.........

[Francois]

And if it could be partly open source, it would be simply fantastic!

[Faintandfuzzy]

I dont think Fuji is pandering to nostalgia.  There is a lot of interest in instant film...and Fuji makes more from Instant than they do their entire digital camera line. 

Condisering the price of used compacts, I think if one could be made and sold for $300 to $400 instead of the $600 to $1000 that Fuji, Ricoh and Contax command, there may be a market.  The current 35mm resurgence isnt based upon nostalgia.  Not sure where that is coming from. 

[Bryan]

There are still 35mm cameras being manufactured like the Leica MP and doesn't Nikon still make the FM10 and F6.  Go to the B&H web site and they have several different new 35mm cameras listed though they may not fall into the compact category.  They mention in the article that the price of old compacts are going up but they are still cheaper than any new camera that will likely be produced unless you want a Holga.  I think people will either continue to pay more for existing cameras or dish out the big bucks for a Leica MP.  I just don't see the market being there while we still have a glut of used cameras.  Go to any thrift store and they probably have a bin of cheap plastic compact cameras for a few bucks each.  I'm embarrassed to say how many cameras I have and I know there are many out there that have many more than I do.  I just don't see myself needing something new for the sake of it being new even if it only costs a few hundred dollars.  If they did produce something it would probably be one model and will not appeal to everyone that's looking for a camera which further limits the demand.

[02Pilot]

My reading of the JCH piece is that what he's suggesting is not just any compact, but a very specialized subset, the high-end compact. These cameras had very good lenses, solid construction, usually with metal bodies, and advanced features; cameras like the Contax T2 & T3, Yashica T4 & T5, Konica Hexar AF, Fuji Klasse and Natura, etc. (see Bellamy's list here: http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2013/05/premium-compact-cameras-a-buyers-guide/).

While I think it's highly unlikely that any major manufacturer would try to build such a thing today, some unconventional funding and R&D arrangement might be made to work if it could source the lenses and engineer the major subsystems without infringing any patents. It's a tall order even in the best case scenario.

[imagesfrugales]

The current 35mm resurgence isnt based upon nostalgia.  Not sure where that is coming from.

Many reasons could explain this phenomenon imo. Some years ago I dared to say that in the film market probably 120 format film would survive longest, for quality reasons. I was wrong. I'm about to discard the 120 format more or less completely and will shoot it only for nostalgia reasons with 70 - 100 years old cameras. The recent huge quality problems with the backing paper of almost all manufacturers damaged the reputation severely and didn`t make things better at all. Almost all of the many people who come back to or begin with film based photography choose the much more conveniant 35 mm format. We experiance a resurgance of film photography, before the digital bang people mostly shot 35 mm and they will again do. Personally, I prefer 35 for many reasons. Money, conveniance, grain, yes grain!, portability. flexibility, did I mention grain? I love 35.

Nevertheless I doubt that any new compact 35 could be economically successful. Maybe in 10 years?

 

[Flippy]

I'll use my example of the Bessa L again, because in pretty much every minor and major way it is a better camera than any compact you can find. I don't think Cosina made it thinking they were going to make millions of them; introducing new LTM cameras four decades after they had lost relevance with new camera buyers is no sure-fire way to make money. And the other thing is Cosina had plenty of "off-the-shelf" parts to play with in order to keep costs down when making those cameras. Somebody trying to come up with something like that from scratch is going to end up with something that likely costs more and works worse.

JCH, unfortunately, is a victim of confirmation bias. He sells compact cameras, so that's what he thinks about. He can't make a business selling old SLRs because anybody can go on ebay and buy to their heart's content without his help. He may be right that in that particular tiny niche of the market supply is drying out while demand continues on... but maybe even that is giving him too much credit. It may be more apt to say that supply of his particular favorite compact 35s has diminished. There are still plenty of cheap ones out there though.

I'd also keep Instax separate from film - for all practical intents and purposes Fuji has a monopoly over the instant film market. Impossible isn't really a competitor to Fuji. And it would appear that Fuji's got all the room there is to be had in that market as regards film and cameras.

[jojonas~]

it'd be great if Kevin Kadooka tok any interest in this

[hidaniel]

it'd be great if Kevin Kadooka tok any interest in this

Speaking of, did he ever release plans/part list/software for his diy light meter?

[jojonas~]

you mean the separate one or the one he built into his canon p rangefinder after? I'm pretty sure the plan is on his website though it's down since earlier this year so you'll want to enter the adress in archive.org to jump back and access it

seems he updated the design on the separate one. I could see that on his research page http://www.kevinkadooka.com/other-cameras
archive.org is having problems with uptime so I can't check that right now