Author Topic: Reticulation? issue with Caffenol (Read 2567 times)

Roycross · « **on:** July 12, 2016, 07:54:50 PM »

Hello Filmwasters!

I'd like your opinions on the following negs, please.

As you can see the first neg is much different looking than the second. Test #1 is my first attempt at Caffenol but I'm having issues repeating the results as you can see. Kodak 5231 in both cases. One is over-exposed by 1 1/2 stops, the other by 2/3 of stop. I'm working in Caffenol with recipes from the Caffenol Cookbook. There were some other variables between the two shots but before explaining them all here I'd thought I'd get a few opinions first. Is that reticulation in the second neg? Negs were processed in 20 and 22 degrees.

Thanks.

R0y

Francois · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:24:19 PM »

Does look like reticulation in the second one.
It's usually caused by excessive temperature difference between solutions and the washing stage.
It's also worse with older emulsions that are usually quite soft.

I checked but I just want to make sure that your Kodak 5231 is Plus-X film...

Pete_R · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:36:08 PM »

Seem to remember large changes in ph values can also cause it.

imagesfrugales · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2016, 10:01:22 PM »

After some hundred self-developd films I've never had reticulation, no matter which film or developer was used including a lot of Caffenol-C. But I've seen it in textbooks and your sample looks like it. But these books also say that you have to swap the temperature from ice cold to really hot or vice versa to provoke this effect with recent films. I once tried that and failed.

Maybe a very acidic stop bath could do that to? I always use plain water as intermediate rinse, never an acidic stop bath. At least soda/carbonate containing developers like Caffenol are sensitive and can produce CO2 gas inside the emulsion when using an acidic stop bath. But that's maybe another story.

Francois · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2016, 10:42:22 PM »

Actually, acids tend to harden the emulsion and prevent development.
But I do remember seeing a formula to make film reticulate on command. It contained a lot of sodium carbonate to over-soften the emulsion and make it do all sorts of crazy things.

To develop, the emulsion needs to soften a bit to let the developers do their job. That's why all developers are alkaline (this is also why stop baths are always acid).

Roycross · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2016, 11:08:47 PM »

Thanks!

I only use a water between the developer and the fix. A prebath to soften the emulsion. I was not aware that old stock had a softer emulsion. Perhaps the prebath is not needed.

What about a very acidic caffenol? I wonder if I increase the sodium carbonate to reduce the Ph if that would help.

Bryan · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2016, 11:20:24 PM »

Quote from: Roycross on July 12, 2016, 11:08:47 PM

I wonder if I increase the sodium carbonate to reduce the Ph if that would help.

You would want to decrease the sodium carbonate to reduce the pH. Sodium Carbonate is alkaline.

Roycross · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2016, 11:23:19 PM »

right! Thanks Bryan. I'll try reducing the sodium carbonate by 50%.

Francois · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2016, 02:51:57 PM »

I think you want to reduce the ascorbic acid as it is your developing agent.
All developers are a combination of two developing agents (with the exception of lith dev), one low contrast and one high contrast. They balance the proportions to get a nice gradation.

imagesfrugales · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2016, 07:17:35 PM »

Developers are also always alkaline (with very few exceptions) because a neutral or acidic developer will not be active. That also is true for Caffenol. I can't imagine that the developer is to blame, after about 6 years and many many blog visitors from literally the whole world (150+ countries, but no Antarktis) I never got a single report that Caffenol w or w/o C caused reticulation.

If you change the pH of a developer, you can dramatically influence its characteristics. So it might be better to use proved recipes unless you know what you are doing.

PS: there are a lot of developers with a single dev agent, the most known is for sure Rodinal.

Francois · « **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2016, 08:32:48 PM »

I know but I didn't want to get too technical about it...

Lets just say that most of the ones we use contain two developing agents in various quantities...

Jack Johnson · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2016, 04:52:14 AM »

I've only ever used Reinhold's recipes, and I have had reticulation, but I sourced it back to water temp.

I use an acidic stop bath (white vinegar at an appropriate dilution) and often pre-rinse, but I use the Ilford wash method which really helps keep the temperatures within tolerance. I tend to set aside all the water I'm going to use several days before, and more often than not I'll keep all the chemistry at room temp and adjust the times. My last place was easy because I had a spot that was consistently 20°C for most of the year, but my new place runs a bit warmer and causes me to do some math.

But, I struggled with reticulation in many of my first batches, especially the 35mm. Pain and repetition certainly helped improve process.

Roycross · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2016, 04:53:32 AM »

Thanks everyone!

Ran another test. 5 minutes at 18 degrees, 2 degrees lower than last time. Better. The emulsion is still super soft.

I've tried on numerous occasions to get reticulation by using extreme temperature changes without much luck and now I'm 2 degrees off and I'm getting it. Strange.

I'll keep at it to figure things out. Maybe I'll skip the prebath.

Roycross · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2016, 02:21:33 PM »

I am inclined to leave the recipes alone given that I had such great results with my first few runs. However, I am processing in a new location. My first run was done at home using my city tap water. I moved to a new location with a darkroom and this is when positive results diminished. I switched to bottle water thinking that the darkroom water had a higher acidity. Anyway, it is weird. The first test and the last test posted here are from the same 400' roll of filmstock. Perhaps I will move back to my flat and try a roll in my kitchen. Maybe there are magical properties in my tap water!

Thanks again everyone! I'll keep the forum posted.

Francois · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2016, 02:26:57 PM »

Actually the pH of tap water is not the same in every city.
The only things that give constant pH are distilled water, water from a dehumidifier and rain water (which can be acidic depending where you live)

I know I've seen formulas for hardening stop baths and film hardeners before. These could possibly help a bit.

Roycross · « **Reply #15 on:** July 17, 2016, 03:02:35 PM »

Thanks François! My first test was done in Dorval and the subsequent ones in Montreal plateau area. I think I will run a test back here at my flat and see what I get. I prefer to use water as my stopping agent for now.

Ezzie · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2016, 08:36:15 PM »

I have developed well over 100 films in various versions of Caffenol, and tried out maybe 15-20 emulsions. Had reticulation once, and only once. Expired Chinese Lucky film. I had no reason to suspect the developer, but may well have been a temperature issue.

Francois · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2016, 10:38:00 PM »

Quote from: Roycross on July 17, 2016, 03:02:35 PM

Thanks François! My first test was done in Dorval and the subsequent ones in Montreal plateau area. I think I will run a test back here at my flat and see what I get. I prefer to use water as my stopping agent for now.

I'm in Longueuil and we get a lot of calcium and other minerals in the water. And for some reason it's getting worse with time... I can see it when I have to clean my humidifier

We used to have a lot of calcium in the water but we now seem to have a lot of other minerals as the deposits it makes are not the usual white stuff but more like beige rock hard stuff. Very bad and vinegar doesn't seem to etch it a lot...

Terry · « **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2016, 01:08:12 PM »

OT, but I've been defrosting my fridge and way at the back I found eight rolls of Lucky. Anybody want it?

?

kevinharding · « **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2016, 07:09:07 AM »

I'd love Lucky film!

jojonas~ · « **Reply #20 on:** August 08, 2016, 01:27:15 PM »

oh, sweet!
is it the bw kind of lucky? I wish I bought more of it when it was around and cheap

Terry · « **Reply #21 on:** August 08, 2016, 09:12:42 PM »

A look in the fridge says I've got 8 rolls--4 each OK? PM me with mailing adresses...

Terry · « **Reply #22 on:** August 09, 2016, 12:40:53 PM »

I forgot to mention the size--they're 120

jojonas~ · « **Reply #23 on:** August 09, 2016, 03:33:34 PM »

PM sent

and woah! I didn't know that lucky came in 120. now I'm eager to try it out

Author Topic: Reticulation? issue with Caffenol (Read 2567 times)

Terry

Terry

Terry