Author Topic: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure  (Read 2055 times)

hookstrapped

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with minimal fuss (meter the shadows and shoot). It's what I do so it's nice to see it validated by someone on the internet (so I know it's right).


http://www.johnnypatience.com/the-zone-system-is-dead/

Indofunk

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You were the one who taught me photography, so that's how I shoot too :D But he says some stuff about pushing that I don't quite get ... sounds like he's shooting at 3200 but overexposing 2-3 stops? Isn't that the equivalent of shooting at 400-800?

Kayos

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Good read but isn't it a bit pointless testing exposure with Tri-X

I've tried completely random and messed up exposures and still got good pictures from it


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02Pilot

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He's operating from a flawed premise. He writes "The general consensus among B&W photographers always seemed to be that you can overexpose color negative film, but shouldn’t try that with B&W film or you would risk losing your highlights. The mantra “expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights” reflects exactly that, and suggests to overexpose and underdevelop."

I've never seen anything that suggested that overexposure of traditional B&W film would risk the highlights; on the contrary, the latitude of such films is generally even higher than the most tolerant color negative films, like the Portra he used for his color example. The basis of the zone system is the roughly 10-stop latitude of photo paper, not the negative, which has far more (15+ for most modern emulsions).

The zone system is intended to produce the greatest tonal range in the most important part of the scene being photographed. If all one wants is a usable negative, then the zone system is a waste of time; I certainly don't use it in street photography. Hybrid processing and printing make it less of a factor in the final result (the print). But it's still very useful in things like landscape photography, especially with medium and large format shots intended for big prints, for extracting the maximum information in the crucial portions of the scene.

What I do not like is the self-aggrandizing arrogance of his title and presentation, acting like he's pulled back the curtain on some sort of huge scam to reveal The Truth to the world of photography. There may be something worthwhile in the post (i.e., just err on the side of overexposure and you'll be fine), but that could have been said quite differently and still made the point.
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.


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hookstrapped

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He's operating from a flawed premise. He writes "The general consensus among B&W photographers always seemed to be that you can overexpose color negative film, but shouldn’t try that with B&W film or you would risk losing your highlights. The mantra “expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights” reflects exactly that, and suggests to overexpose and underdevelop."

I've never seen anything that suggested that overexposure of traditional B&W film would risk the highlights; on the contrary, the latitude of such films is generally even higher than the most tolerant color negative films, like the Portra he used for his color example. The basis of the zone system is the roughly 10-stop latitude of photo paper, not the negative, which has far more (15+ for most modern emulsions).

The zone system is intended to produce the greatest tonal range in the most important part of the scene being photographed. If all one wants is a usable negative, then the zone system is a waste of time; I certainly don't use it in street photography. Hybrid processing and printing make it less of a factor in the final result (the print). But it's still very useful in things like landscape photography, especially with medium and large format shots intended for big prints, for extracting the maximum information in the crucial portions of the scene.

What I do not like is the self-aggrandizing arrogance of his title and presentation, acting like he's pulled back the curtain on some sort of huge scam to reveal The Truth to the world of photography. There may be something worthwhile in the post (i.e., just err on the side of overexposure and you'll be fine), but that could have been said quite differently and still made the point.

But then he wouldn't have got the traffic and comments. I never heard of this guy but he seems to have a following, especially among the digital shooter / film beginner demographic

02Pilot

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But then he wouldn't have got the traffic and comments. I never heard of this guy but he seems to have a following, especially among the digital shooter / film beginner demographic

Yes, there does seem to be a consistent linkage between generating traffic and being an enormous tool, especially among blogs catering to the digital shooter / film beginner demographic.
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.


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imagesfrugales

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Sorry, I have to disagree with unprecise or false statements . It's very popular - and the author does the same - to confuse subject contrast with negative contrast. No negative, again: not a single neg in the whole word, has a contrast range of 15 stops. That would mean a Dmax of 4.5 above base and fog. Even slide film only has Dmax of maybe 3.7 and bw neg film is already very contrasty with a D of 2.4 meaning a neg contrast of 8 stops. D = log exposure, so 1 stop or zone makes a D of 0.3. "Traditional" negs according to the zone system have a Dmax of about 1.5 equaling a contrast range of 5 stops. Nevertheless the subject contrast could be maybe 14 stops and is transformed by the negative to a printable  range of 5 stops. That is what photographic paper can handle. + - some latitude for vc paper. And that's the real difference to the zone sytem, that didn`t know (and still doesn`t) of variable contrast paper. The old rule "expose for the shadows" combined with a second "if in doubt add one stop" is almost the same the author recommends. And I also like slightly denser negs because they can be scanned much easier than flat negs. So the authors findings aren't new at all and the explanations partly false, the samples mostly have a very low subject contrast and don`t mean anything, plus they are shot on TriX which has a real speed of about 200 with a s-like density curve and always benefits from more exposure than boxspeed to get proper shadow detail. This film blocks the shadows very quickly when underexposed and pushing doesn't help at all. But the resulting look is what many are looking for.

After all it's really easy. Add 1 stop for "real" film speed with splendid shadows. Add another 1 or 2 stops for backlight. Add even 1 more stop if the sun is in the image. Or simply spot meter for the darkest shadows that shall have detail and expose 2 stops less, then the shadows are safe in zone 2 including 1 safety stop for real film speed. Develop as long as you like for the neg contrast you want.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 08:05:28 PM by imagesfrugales »

02Pilot

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No negative, again: not a single neg in the whole word, has a contrast range of 15 stops.

I based my statement on this on Barnbaum's discussion of the zone system in The Art of Photography, wherein he posits that "on nearly all black-and-white films, the maximum density usually goes up to Zone 16 or even 18!" (p.117) He later discusses the differences between measuring densities alone and using them in the process of printing. I don't wet print, but reading his chapters on the zone system provide an explanation that I found quite convincing.
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.


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imagesfrugales

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You can use a film scanner as a densitometer with a scan prog like vuescan and there is no way that a bw film neg can have a density of 15 x 0.3 = 4.5. They all want to say that a negative can handle 15 stops (maybe more, but that`s another story) subject contrast, and that is OK. A negative film transforms the subject contrast to a much lower level.

PS: you have to understand this to understand the zone system.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 11:28:59 PM by imagesfrugales »

Pete_R

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I believe what he says in describing the zone system as "it provides photographers with a systematic method of precisely defining the relationship between the way you visualize a photographic subject and the final results" is absolutlely correct.

Everything else he says is complete bollocks.
"I've been loading films into spirals for so many years I can almost do it with my eyes shut."

Francois

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Re: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2016, 09:47:42 PM »
What I find about the zone system is that very few people really know why Ansel invented it in the first place.
Back in his days, photographic emulsions were much less reliable and standardized than they are today. Since he couldn't get the results he was looking for from the materials available to him at the time, he invented a method to achieve what he wanted. That's why the system originally included extensive testing.
But now, film is very standardized and the best it's ever been (and possibly will be). So all we're left with is the tonal placement part of the system.

When we look at the extreme zones, they are present but of little pictorial use other than adding smoothness and depth to an image. Think of it like the vinyl vs. CD debate.

So yes, a B&W film has tremendous latitude, but it still can't record everything in one go without some help.

BTW, the whole thing made me laugh out loud when he says that a large format negative has more latitude than a 35mm!
Just imagine the tonal range we could record with one of those ultra large format mammoth cameras of the early 20th century!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 09:53:07 PM by Francois »
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Flippy

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Re: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 01:01:09 PM »
BTW, the whole thing made me laugh out loud when he says that a large format negative has more latitude than a 35mm!
Just imagine the tonal range we could record with one of those ultra large format mammoth cameras of the early 20th century!

They are sort of right. One of the reasons 35mm took so long to catch on was the excessive contrast of prewar films and papers. A large negative printed on large paper effectively sidestepped the problem, although it's not really the latitude that was the issue.

Late Developer

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Re: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 02:08:15 PM »
"After all it's really easy. Add 1 stop for "real" film speed with splendid shadows. Add another 1 or 2 stops for backlight. Add even 1 more stop if the sun is in the image. Or simply spot meter for the darkest shadows that shall have detail and expose 2 stops less, then the shadows are safe in zone 2 including 1 safety stop for real film speed. Develop as long as you like for the neg contrast you want."

That, for the most part, is what I do.  I tend to shoot at half box speed as a default setting - and then just use the exposure compensation button to get the extra exposure if shooting into the sun or I want shadow detail where I suspect the shadows will block out.  I'm not really "technical" but having this as a routine has helped me get negatives I can scan and get decent results.

All I need to do now is learn how to take a good photo.....
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Francois

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Re: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 02:10:02 PM »
BTW, the whole thing made me laugh out loud when he says that a large format negative has more latitude than a 35mm!
Just imagine the tonal range we could record with one of those ultra large format mammoth cameras of the early 20th century!

They are sort of right. One of the reasons 35mm took so long to catch on was the excessive contrast of prewar films and papers. A large negative printed on large paper effectively sidestepped the problem, although it's not really the latitude that was the issue.
People can't imagine how big grain was on those old films.
I think they measured granularity in baseballs per inch!
Francois

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John Robison

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Re: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2016, 07:44:14 PM »
His suggestions seem close to a booklet I read 20 some years ago (and it was old then) titled 'How to be Positive About the Negative'. Not sure of the title but the authors method was about the same. Personally I don't care to try to print really dark negs, too hard to pump enough light through them.

Francois

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Re: I thought this was pretty interesting regarding getting a proper exposure
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2016, 09:08:54 PM »
But it does give you plenty of time to dodge and burn  ;)
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.