Topic: C41 question: rinse after stab?

[Indofunk]

For the past year+ that I've been home developing C41, I've rinsed after adding the stabilizer. Mostly because in B&W dev, the very last step before you hang the film up to dry is to rinse rinse rinse and then add a little photo flow and hang it. But recently I reread the Unicolor C41 instructions and it said nothing about rinsing after the stabilizer. So that prompted me to ask Google about it. After wading through a bunch of Flickr & APUG threads discussions flamewars, I realized that popular web wisdom seems to be that the stabilizer works on the film as it dries, and therefore should definitely NOT be washed off afterwards. Is this true? If so, I've been doing it wrong on all the C41 rolls I've developed. No way I'm going ot go BACK and stabilize all of them, especially since they're already cut into 6-frame strips. So how long do I have until they fade into whiteness?

[Kayos]

It's my understanding the stabiliser is like a drying aid, I don't rinse after using it, but I wouldn't think the negs you have rinsed will suffer I'll effects.
Some C41 kits don't even have stabiliser bath

[jojonas~]

7 days....

[SLVR]

Ive read that the reason we stabilize is to lock in the dyes. Theres formalin in the stabilizer that does this. Thing is, ive read that formalin is in photoflo as well.

When I was doing C41 I just stabilized and photoflo'd one after the other. Since my instructions never required the film to be rinsed after stabilize.

[imagesfrugales]

Flamewars, I can imagine that very well, especially with such a secondary theme. I would do anything but not stabilize the cut film stripes again. Maybe if I should be bored to death. Apug is a great knowledge ressource, but it's mostly a total waste of time to read more than the first few posts and of course the ones from the legendary "photoengeneer" and 2 or 3 others when it's about darkroom chemistry.

The stab usually contains formalin and a detergent, so there's no need to use photoflo and a following rinse would make the stab useless. But is there a need to stabilize at all? I don't think so. My opinion is built on the remarks of the former general manager of a Macodirect, a big photo mail-order business. He said that the C-41 process is designed to work without a fresh water connection and that the machines don't rinse at all between the baths. So the stab bath is the only rinse in the whole process and it's used again and again and again and that there is no need for a stab bath at home, if you do proper rinsing with water exchange like you do with bw film. The dyes would be stable anyway. I never used a stab bath and feel no need to have formalin at home. I don't even use photoflo but a drop of dish detergent. I'm known to a professional photographer who shot some 10.000 LF sheets in some decades and he only uses dish detergent as he learned from his father.

Btw, the c-41 process at home is much more flexible like you might think. Diluted use as a one-shot developer, lower termperatures or push processing, there`s a lot possible.

Don't think too much about what's wrong or right. Film is robust. Fix well but not too long, rinse sufficiantly and everything will be fine for the next decades. Don't worry - be happy. Have fun.

[Francois]

Formalin is mostly used to prevent bacterial growth in the solution... Usually.

[LT]

why does the title of this thread make me think of serial killers?

[Indofunk]

why does the title of this thread make me think of serial killers?

[Indofunk]

The stab usually contains formalin and a detergent, so there's no need to use photoflo and a following rinse would make the stab useless. But is there a need to stabilize at all? I don't think so. My opinion is built on the remarks of the former general manager of a Macodirect, a big photo mail-order business. He said that the C-41 process is designed to work without a fresh water connection and that the machines don't rinse at all between the baths. So the stab bath is the only rinse in the whole process and it's used again and again and again and that there is no need for a stab bath at home, if you do proper rinsing with water exchange like you do with bw film. The dyes would be stable anyway. I never used a stab bath and feel no need to have formalin at home. I don't even use photoflo but a drop of dish detergent. I'm known to a professional photographer who shot some 10.000 LF sheets in some decades and he only uses dish detergent as he learned from his father.

I am going to choose to believe this Also, I think I'll not rinse after stabbing from now on. At the very least, it saves me a step

[jharr]

The reality I choose to believe is that the stab soaks into the emulsion and does its thing. I then rinse the surface with a quick dunk in DI water with a touch of dishwashing liquid. I have had bad luck with the stab leaving horrible water spots. A clean water rinse is absolutely necessary for my workflow.

Oh and I squeegee with a microfiber cloth dunked in the rinse water and wrung out gently... Moist, not wet.

[Indofunk]

Anecdotal evidence after my first round of no-rinse-after-stab processing:
1. The colors are BRILLIANT.
2. Drying marks are EVERYWHERE.

Reasons I should discount point #1:
a. This is from the batch of "stored outdoors in a desert" Sav-On Ferrania rebrand. So even though I do have other rolls from the same lot sale to compare it to, there's no guarantee that this particular roll was part of the same batch as the others, and no guarantee that it was stored similarly.
b. I've just recently started using (again) my Epson V500's auto-color correction. So the other Sav-On rolls I've processed were scanned without Epson's color correction algorithm (and instead with my own "Indofunk color correction algorithm" which I'm sure is horrible )
c. These shots were taken in sunny California, where the colors are just more brilliant than in snowy NYC.

So basically, this roll just came out with a lot of annoying drying marks. So from now on I'm going to go with the James method of a quick dunk in water+photo flow after the stab.

[ManuelL]

Interesting that you guys have drying marks after the stab. I never had any drying marks. Do you use regular water? I always use distilled water at least for the last step in every process (e.g. for the last wash step in B&W and to dilute the stab solution in C41) and never had any marks on the film. In C41 I don't squeegy the film, but just hang it up to dry.

[Kayos]

I found with the Digibase kit their is at least 3 different sets of instructions out there, but all the ones I've seen give the wrong mixture for the stab, it's basically twice as strong and leaves white marks on the film. If the directions on the bottles are used it doesn't leave the drying marks. I don't use distilled water in any of my processes either

[charles binns]

I rinse after the stab bath. The negs had terrible drying marks when I didn't.


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[Indofunk]

I've never had a problem with NYC tap water. None that I could specifically blame on the water anyways...

[Francois]

Big modern cities usually have pretty good tap water. But when in doubt, use demineralized water.

[Photo_Utopia]

The stabiliser should be the final bath. There should be no rinse after that as it will reduce the archival quality of the dye image (tests say between 40-60%).
Old style stabilisers are normally 2-3% formaldehyde which has the main purpose of placing itself at the dye cloud – gelatin interface where it reduces mould growth and makes the dye more stable in storage.
Newer types sometimes called super stabilisers are formaldehyde free and rather than immersion in that chemical there is a chemical reaction at the dye cloud that produces a formalin based chemical.

The stabiliser is crucial to the longevity of the film, washing away that chemical with a final rinse will drastically reduce the useful life of the film.