Topic: Zone System

[SLVR]

So I've tried to wrap my head around the zone system before and got lost. There was some mention of it in the snow film thread and it sparked my interest again. Now that Ive had some time to think about it and I think I understand this. But I need a little clarification.

I have heard the expose for the shadows develop for the highlights mantra before. But does this apply when using the zone system? If you put your highlights in zone 8 or 9 then your shadows would still be exposed properly. It seems that more or less you aren't developing for the highlights you are exposing for them but adjusted to 18% medium grey.

It seems that the zone system is more or less just a guide for exposing, it isn't a sure fire thing like sunny 16. This just seems to be a way of exposing in tricky situations or maybe a way of helping you visualize what the outcome of exposure will be in the end.

[jharr]

I'm in the same boat in that I have read about it, considered it, but never used it. Mostly that's because I don't do my own printing, which is part of the system. If I remember, you have to adjust development of the film according to the exposure. It's all about controlling the dynamic range of the print ultimately. So if you have a high contrast scene, you pull exposure/development in order to lower the contrast, then use the 'right' paper and filters to adjust in the print. So it really is a "system" in that you have to know what dynamic range you want in the print before you hit the shutter. Perhaps even before you load the camera. Once you have all of the numbers worked out, the final product (the print) becomes very predictable. I decided that it was in fact too predictable for me and my style. I deal with science and numbers all day. I leave it pretty much out of my art life. 

[Late Developer]

I've hit the same buffer as you a couple of times and sort of come to an understanding with myself that I'm not going to let it frustrate me and move on. 

The "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights" advice is fine for print film, as far as I can recall, but it's the other way round for slide film.  These days, I tend to halve the box speed of the film (over expose by 1 stop), take an incident reading of the scene I want to shoot and plug that straight into the camera.  It seems pretty bomb-proof and has served me well with the light at my back and shooting into the light.  I have the negs processed commercially at reputable labs.

The set I did around Constable Country http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7653.0  used precisely that method and they were incredibly easy to tweak / needed very little adjustment other than sharpening in Lightroom.

Not much use when it comes to advice on the zone system, I'll admit, but it seems to give me nice negs with plenty of shadow and highlight detail.

[02Pilot]

I too had some curiosity about the system, but I never really understood it until I read the relevant portions of Bruce Barnbaum's The Art of Photography. Printing is a big factor in the utility of the zone system, and I don't print, so I haven't really put it into practice in any serious way, but I feel that simply understanding it was useful. I'm still primarily a sunny-16 shooter (also exposing at half box speed), but I have found myself adjusting things based on the zone system from time to time.

[Francois]

Leon's pretty much the boss when it comes to the Zone system. But I find it a bit of a hassle and use instead a technique called the Stop system that is very similar but a bit easier.

Depending is you shoot color negative or B&W, you have to tweak things a bit. What's important here is the number of stops that the film can handle.
For color negs, you can usually record between 5 to 7 stops range. For B&W it's usually in the 9 stop range.

In the stop system, you don't adjust the development to change the film's curve and you use an incident meter. This makes things very easy.
Think of it like a scale with 9 stops for B&W. The middle one is always the middle gray. The 1st stop is the darkest shadow that isn't only black. 9th stop is the last white that isn't totally white. The difference between the stop system and the zone system is that Ansel's technique requires a lot of previsualisation and understanding of how things will resolve. The stop system just wants you to know what general tone you want the final image to have.
If you want the scene to be darker, you just underexpose by the number of stops you need. For lighter scenes, just overexpose accordingly.

This works quite well. The highlights are the easiest thing to get on film so we don't worry about them. The shadows are the sensitive part, that's why we expose for them. But that doesn't mean sticking them in the middle gray position! That is unless that what you wanted in the first place.

[Photo_Utopia]

The zone system is just a simplified tonal reproduction system, it stops you having to use quadrant diagrams to map the tones you get with combinations of film and paper.

With print material you have fewer recordable tones than with negative materials; the zone system just allows you to place a range of tones in a scene accurately on your output material.

The best way to expose negative film is for the highest photographic efficiency which is placing the darkest shadow in your subject onto the part of the film curve where density is just starting to build (the toe).

The easy way to do this is to meter the emerging shadow detail and stop down two stops to place the shadow in the toe, the only time this method becomes hard is when the scene brightness range exceeds the tonal range of the film and then we lower the EI of the film and reduce development.

I think it's very easy to get bent out of shape thinking about tonal reproduction and ultimately people should do what works for them even if it's arbitrarily lowering ISO by half of just guessing based on EV values (like sunny 16)

Sometime life is too short to worry about the science and just enjoy photography. That said I do like repeatable easy to print negatives so I do use the more advanced methods sometimes.

[hookstrapped]

The way I learned the zone system was fairly simple.  It required the use of a spot meter, which you used to get an accurate sense of the dynamic range of the composition.  There are 10 zones, each an EV or stop apart. 

I was taught to pay particular attention to areas that I wanted to be sure had detail, whether in the shadows or the highlights, as these areas were vulnerable to being pushed outside of the workable dynamic range of the film.  On the spot meter scale where you translate the EV reading into f-stop/shutter speed combinations, there are marks for each EV on either side of the main mark, which is 18% gray or zone 5.  I became most interested in shadow detail (not caring if highlights were blown out), so I tended to overexpose for the shadows, making sure they didn't fall below zone 3 more or less. So my method was basically spot meter the shadows, take that EV value and place it around the zone 2 or 3 mark on the spot meter scale.  The next step, which I didn't do because I generally care less about highlights and, as I said, don't mind blown highlights, would be to see where this placed the metered highlights on the EV/zone scale.  Accordingly, you might need to pull development if the highlights were placed beyond zone 9 or so.
 

[Dave Elden]

It seems that the zone system is more or less just a guide for exposing, it isn't a sure fire thing like sunny 16. This just seems to be a way of exposing in tricky situations or maybe a way of helping you visualize what the outcome of exposure will be in the end.

It's a system to control the tones in the final print - by controlling negative exposure and development as well as printing. It was promulgated at a time when available film speeds (and therefore exposure latitude) were significantly less than we see in modern materials. We also now have wide range variable contrast paper which was not an option when the ZS was first promulgated. I believe these are the reasons very few photographers nowadays actually practice the ZS as described by Ansel Adams etc - they just don't need to in order to get the results they want in the darkroom. Having said that, understanding the principles (expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights) may be useful if ever you need to record scenes with detail throughout with a subject brightness range exceeding your film's latitude - or to adjust the contrast recorded from a normal SBR scene. This is a rarer requirement than perhaps some people realise.

Dave.

[LT]

I only use it to control my negs. I take a much more expressive approach when I print.

So, expose negatives for the shadows, place detailed shadow tones on zone III or IV, depending on your taste. Develop to ensure you retain detail in zone VIII highlights. That's what I do. It gives me a neg that is quite flat, but it has detail throughout all areas. I can then use this and some printing mad-skillz to realise the print in any way I want. I might want the shadows to go to full black, or I might want a high-key detailed and light delicate  print. My negs give me the choice to do this.  a negative exposed at manufacturers speed, and developed for the stated times will give a nice printable neg, but your choices in the printing stage will be limited.

The best teaching book on this that I have found is John Blakemore's Black and White Photography Workshop. I mostly follow his technique really. He is  a legend.

BUT, the zone system will not make you a better photographer, nor does it suit everyone. Horses for course, swings and roundabouts, etc etc etc.

Good luck with it. If you persist,mand want some tips, feel free to message me.

[SLVR]

Leon I was hoping you'd pipe in.

Walking around with the M5 and its spot meter I find that I can have a much different approach when it comes to metering compared to some cameras that average or do some sort of different center weighted pattern.

Really then from my understanding I should be metering for what in my scene should be around 18% grey? Or metering for the darkest part of the image and compensating 2 stops under then develop as normal? I dont want to change development too much but just use the zone system as a way of helping me meter with a spot meter more accurately in those tricky conditions.

I would eventually like to wet print but at the moment all I have is scanning. I find that there is a sweet spot for exposure when scanning. Most people say you can recover much more detail with a scanner but I find that the image breaks apart rather fast as artifacts are introduced from pushing the limits. Does exposing this way get be more consistently in that sweet spot?

I guess I really have to end up just trying it to see how it works.

[hookstrapped]

I've found that under-exposing is especially problematic when it comes to scanning.  All sorts of ugly artifacts are introduced if you try to compensate in PS.

I like to overexpose a stop or so when doing average metering, and even with that I tend to meter off a shady area (usually at my feet) if the subject is is in full or partial shade or backlit.  That gives me some latitude to work with and gives me the shadow detail I want.  It seems to be more or less equivalent to what I did with a spot meter and placing the shadow EV at zone 3.  I call it the FEET system.

[Francois]

Really then from my understanding I should be metering for what in my scene should be around 18% grey? Or metering for the darkest part of the image and compensating 2 stops under then develop as normal? I dont want to change development too much but just use the zone system as a way of helping me meter with a spot meter more accurately in those tricky conditions.

Actually, the meter knows only one color: 18% reflectance gray (which is in reality middle gray).
It wants to bring the spot you meter to the 18% level no matter what. That's why you must know how you want the spot to be represented in the final print.

[SLVR]

^ Right. So by metering for the darkest part of the image with detail the meter will try to make that 18% grey or zone 5. Underexposing then by 2 stops should put it in zone 3 which is dark with detail but not black with detail. From there down anything black is set and then middle grey is accurately set and so forth for the scene.

I'm going to give this a shot on my next roll.

[Francois]

Knowing where the meter puts what you point it at, you can then put it back in its proper tonal place.

Once I figured out that every meter sees only 18% gray (well, not exactly but for 99% of the people it's the case... only the owners of Nikon F5 and F6 are exempt from that), you start getting better exposures.

[jojonas~]

The best way to expose negative film is for the highest photographic efficiency which is placing the darkest shadow in your subject onto the part of the film curve where density is just starting to build (the toe).

The easy way to do this is to meter the emerging shadow detail and stop down two stops to place the shadow in the toe, the only time this method becomes hard is when the scene brightness range exceeds the tonal range of the film and then we lower the EI of the film and reduce development.

meter where I want detail in the shadows
and stop down 2

okay, I think I can remember that

I'll save development adjustments for when I shoot sheets.

[LT]

^ Right. So by metering for the darkest part of the image with detail the meter will try to make that 18% grey or zone 5. Underexposing then by 2 stops should put it in zone 3 which is dark with detail but not black with detail. From there down anything black is set and then middle grey is accurately set and so forth for the scene.

I'm going to give this a shot on my next roll.

Bingo! You got it

Mostly, I only adjust the shadow exposure by 1 stop, so put my shadows on zone IV, and therefore overexpose. Which works for me, and is good for scanning. 

[SLVR]

I want to bump this up and thank those who put their input on this metering technique.

It really opened my eyes up to exactly how to meter through a scene and how to see how the meter sees. I've resorted to putting my shadows in zone 4 and it seems to work very well as noted in my contributions in the weekend thread.

The finest grain, best tones, and easiest scans I've had in a LONG time from 35mm and I can thank a proper metering technique for it.

[LT]

Nice work SLVR