Author Topic: Professional Wedding Photography  (Read 4683 times)

Late Developer

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Professional Wedding Photography
« on: October 01, 2013, 12:41:19 PM »
I'm not a professional photographer but, back in the early 80's when I was just starting out in my career in insurance, I shot weddings to supplement my meagre pay.  Even in those days, the pay wasn't good and, when you consider the time spent getting an album together and the cost / profit, the hourly rate was pitiful.

A friend of mine is a professional wedding and commercial / product photographer. He also runs a small, independent, camera shop where you can buy all sorts of new and second-hand gear and have portraits, passport photos done, etc.  He seems to do okay - but he works massive hours and travels all over the place to do his work.

Then you see nonsense like this and wonder why professional photographers have a such a high failure rate as businesses. 

http://petapixel.com/2013/09/29/wedding-photographer-wanted-ad-makes-us-lose-little-faith-humanity/

"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

Alan

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 02:46:02 PM »
crazy !

I just wouldnt do wedding photography . <--- -thats a full stop!-

toooo much responsibility.

I think the lady in the advert doesnt understand the process
of showing up on the day to take images of a 1 off event
and having to deal with people who are "drunk". taking the images
back to base to edit and then printed/bound etc as a final product.

Insurance?
Travel expenses?
Equipment?
Time?
Prints?
Profit? [because that is why you would want to do the job - ffs]

who pays for that? $100 doesnt go near to contributing anything to the above  >:(

Verian

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 04:10:45 PM »
A friend of mine was married a fortnight ago and paid £1200 for a professional wedding photographer. He received 210 hi-res colour digital images and the same images converted to black and white. So, effectively 420, although they are the same image of course. It's now up to him if he wants to pay the photographer for prints/albums etc or whether he wants to deal with that himself. He actually had two shoots for that price, the first was a couple of weeks before the wedding, just the couple in a nice location, and then the wedding day itself, including the reception.

Thing is, at £1200, it was actually a bargain based on quotes he received (the next nearest was £2000) from several other photographers, and the results I've seen are very good. Importantly, the bride and groom are delighted with them.

For the £100 offered in the advert I'd have spent 20 minutes there with one of these:



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Terry

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 04:24:04 PM »
Reminds me of working freelance in theatre forty years ago: if a producer started talking about art or portfolio, I knew he wasn't going to pay me.

jharr

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 05:01:13 PM »
I am not a professional photographer either, but I have done a couple of weddings and got paid. I am doing another in Nov for some friends (pro bono). I don't mind doing the occasional wedding and/or engagement session, but you are right... it is a TON of work and I am generally so stressed about the "once in a lifetime" nature of the photos that I lose a lot of sleep (literally). Your friend is right. £1200 is a bargain. If he is any good, at that price, he should be very busy (poor guy). ;)
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Photo_Utopia

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 10:55:24 PM »
I shot weddings and some portraits for many years, not as a sole trader but part of an organisation. It's hard work, when you look at all the expenses I wonder how it can pay especially these days where digital is free, kind of diluting the value ( all day 2000 shots on a DVD for £250 is common)
I guess if you need to do it as a hobby supplementing the cost of gear, Ok but it is harder work than you'd imagine.
I don't do them much now, if I'm asked I'll do it with my Rolleiflex and supply prints in a leather hand made album–too retro for most....
There's more to this photography thing than meets the eye.

Paul Mitchell

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 09:32:06 AM »
Just a few weeks ago my arm was twisted to cover my niece's wedding. Both her and her partner don't have a lot of money so was happy to oblige. It was a good 12 hour day, a further day and a half of processing the images and because it was a family wedding none of my side of the family took a blind bit of notice when I came to organise them... it was like trying to herd cats! Would I ever become a pro wedding tog?... I'd rather stick pins in my eyes!

Mind you it's not just photographers this happens to... graphic design is just the same... Graphic Designer vs client

Just be warned the above link contains quite a lot of swearing!

Paul
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Late Developer

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »
........especially these days where digital is free, kind of diluting the value ( all day 2000 shots on a DVD for £250 is common)

Digital is anything but free - but the most important part is that for professionals, time is money - let alone buying kit, whether it's film or otherwis.

I have a Nikon D800 and a D700 (not eactly cheap), 16Gb CF cards aren't massively expensive these days but I process on a 27" iMac using Nikon Capture NX2, Photoshop and/or Lightroom.  As I'm not a pro, I don't have an hourly rate but let's say £20-30 an hour isn't unreasonable for a skilled technician.  Ignoring digital, Hasselblads and Mamiyas don't exactly grow on trees.........

Based on Paul Mitchell's timescales in previous post (which sound very similar to my experience) and assuming depreciation of kit / need to replace / upgrade over time) it amazes me that professional wedding photographers are prepared to get out of bed for less than £1,000 for even the most basic package.

Some cheeky buggers also want professionals to hand over a CD / DVD so the bride and groom, their family and friends can all post photos on the web and/or get prints done / albums made without the photographer seeing a penny for it.  Unless it was a shoot for a friend, I would never surrender my copyright unless a significant fee was agreed.

If peoples' perception is that the time spent shooting the wedding, travel costs, photographic techniques learned and people skills honed by professional photographers adds no "value", they should make do with snaps taken by their friends / family on their big day - blown out highlights, heads chopped off, blinking, squinting and out of focus / poorly exposed photos as may be....

I have sympathy for those genuinely desperate to completely under-value and under-price their services but the end result is that they cannot sustain those price levels for long and they are taking food off the tables of real professionals whose only crime is to want a fair price for their product.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

Francois

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 02:34:28 PM »
Still, I feel this is a trend that will go on. There's somebody who dreams of becoming a famous photographer that's born every minute. There's somebody who think that a high-end camera will instantly turn them into a sensation that walks into a camera store every minute. There's somebody who tries to build a portfolio in the hope it will make them rich and famous that's born every minute...................
Francois

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SLVR

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 03:05:50 PM »
Mind you it's not just photographers this happens to... graphic design is just the same...

Don't get me started. I have one of those jobs right now. They will pay, but the direction is severely lacking...

Terry

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 07:03:28 PM »
Not long ago, a friend of mine did a wedding shoot as a favor.  He spent the following several weeks photoshopping out extra flesh from the bride's images.  Sound like fun?

BTW, that's a great video Paul.  Reminded me of the first rule of creative work: everybody wants three things--cheap, fast and good.  But you can only have two.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:05:55 PM by Terry »

Nigel

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 08:28:12 PM »
A friend of mine has recently started shooting weddings, although she is a very experienced photographer. She recently had her first large wedding to shoot and so I was roped in as the second shooter. I actually quite enjoyed it, but then I didn't have the pressure of getting all the key shots, I was just taking informal shots of the friends and family socialising. Having said that it was a really long day, I was on my feet from about 11am till 8pm - my friend worked from 10am - 10pm! Whatever they say it's not an easy way to earn a living!
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Francois

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 09:12:11 PM »
He spent the following several weeks photoshopping out extra flesh from the bride's images.  Sound like fun?
I did that once to my aunt's wedding pictures. Mom wanted to make her a surprise. Auntie gave me a whole truckload of s*** for taking off about 20 lbs. from the image!!!

I still can't figure out why. The job was pretty much flawless.

Francois

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gothamtomato

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 09:40:15 PM »
When I was buying my apartment, the person I was buying from didn't want to use a professional realtor, she wanted to sell it herself because she thought realtors got paid too much for just showing an apartment. The result: I got a deal because a realtor would have advised her to ask a lot more for the place.

The phrase 'penny wise and dollar foolish' was meant for just such people. This Bridezilla will get exactly the kind of wedding photos she deserves.

imagesfrugales

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 11:22:42 PM »
Digital killed photography. Dilettantism replaces professionalism and passion. Wasting film is a good way to experiance what passion means. It's the best way to avoid the ever faster and cheaper game of meaninglessness. Our parents or grandparents where happy they could afford and have one(!!!) formal wedding picture and that was and still is meaningfull. They added some snaps from friends, the results mustn't have been perfect at all, today you might spread some disposable cams and let a pro do the formal picture.

Even worse is the video thing, but that's another story.

Terry

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2013, 02:21:20 AM »
Hear, hear! 

Late Developer

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2013, 09:09:04 AM »
Not sure it's "killed photography" but it's certainly democratised it and the new  technology has made it possible for even those with absolutely no clue how to work the "aperture / shutter speed / ISO sensitivity triangle" to get passable results with zero effort. A sort of double-edged sword.

My mum and dad (married in 1948) had one wedding photograph. Black and white and taken by the local newspaper reporter.  Then they went to Blackpool for the weekend.  These days, crappy celebrity magazines pressurise the whole situation until we plebs become so deluded into believing that we, too, can (or even must?) be celebrities for a day and spend the GDP of a small African nation on a wedding reception and honeymoon.

[/rant]
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

rotarysmp

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2013, 07:50:11 PM »
We went to friends wedding, at a resort for a long weekend last summer. The Pro they had flown in took about 1200 photos. The friends and relies provided another 14000 images! I shot six rolls of B&W through the M2, but actually sat down and enjoyed the ceremony. At times I felt like I was the only one watching the ceremony with my eyes and not on a screen. It seemed kind of weird and disrespectful to me they way everyone was running around behind the alter to get first kiss photos. Must have been a nightmare for the Protog.
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Moiz

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 09:31:21 AM »
Rotarysmp, your post reminded me of this.

Louis CK: Stupid Facebook Posts - Oh My God (HD)

More bad language and an ad you'll have to skip.

Urban Hafner

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 10:49:42 AM »
We went to friends wedding, at a resort for a long weekend last summer. The Pro they had flown in took about 1200 photos. The friends and relies provided another 14000 images! I shot six rolls of B&W through the M2, but actually sat down and enjoyed the ceremony. At times I felt like I was the only one watching the ceremony with my eyes and not on a screen. It seemed kind of weird and disrespectful to me they way everyone was running around behind the alter to get first kiss photos. Must have been a nightmare for the Protog.

I totally get that! I always want to shoot some pictures when I'm out with people, but I never get around to it with all the talking, and drinking  ;D

limr

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 03:44:02 PM »
Moiz - I'm not that much of a Louis CK fan, but that clip had me laughing because I've experienced the same thing. Not at a kids' dance rehearsal (a major advantage to not having kids is that I'll never have to sit through one of those ;) ) but on a cruise ship with everyone trying to get pictures and video of passing under the Verrazano Bridge. Including me! At one point, I was cursing because I was having trouble keeping the bridge in the frame...and it finally hit me how ludicrous the whole thing was. I was missing out on the whole thing because I was trying to watch it on a 3" screen. Was I a total idiot??? I put the camera away immediately after that.

I'm already grumpy about weddings as it is. 1200 pictures? Dear god, of what? And another 14,000??? How much do we want to bet that a good 1/3 of those guest photos were of food?

Even 25 years ago when my brother got married, and both weddings and photography packages were just starting to get more elaborate, we took only a fraction of that 1200 with the pro.

I think I might ban digital at my own wedding :)
Leonore
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Nigel

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 08:41:14 PM »
I'm quite proud that my (our) wedding cost $550 and we a whole roll of 36 photos in that price - bargain!  :)  Come to think of it I haven't seen those pictures since we got back.
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rotarysmp

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 08:51:31 PM »
How about this... not the wedding I went to. This one has fewer people running around with cameras. It is just something I saw on another forum...



The Ipad has got to be the dumbist concept for a camera since....ummm... Kodak Disc (ducking for cover here) :)

What surprises me is that people will take the 14000 wedding photos and make a DVD with all of them. They had monkey shakespear in there hands, they just had to edit it. I bet there are 30 pretty cool fotos in that hay stack.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:56:07 PM by rotarysmp »
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Francois

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2013, 09:24:27 PM »
The Ipad has got to be the dumbist concept for a camera since....ummm... Kodak Disc (ducking for cover here) :)
Well... it's not so dumb if you have really really poor eyesight  ;D
Think of it as a perfect Mister Magoo camera!
Francois

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 11:37:48 PM »
I'm quite proud that my (our) wedding cost $550 and we a whole roll of 36 photos in that price - bargain!  :)  Come to think of it I haven't seen those pictures since we got back.

When Lara and I got hitched 6 years ago (witnessed by her dad and sister, my best man and his wife), I took a tripod and my camera and shot the dozen or so photos for free!! We have a small number from the wedding breakfast we arranged for 25 or so guests the following week - and that's that.....
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

gothamtomato

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Re: Professional Wedding Photography
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2013, 11:55:20 AM »
What's worse is when people use an iPad at Fashion Week! If you are sitting behind someone doing that, you miss the whole thing because, of course, they don't just lift it up, take a picture then put it back down. They hold it up the whole time, tracking everything.

Someday you'll read about someone thumping an iPad user on the head at a fashion show. It will be me.