Author Topic: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.  (Read 23405 times)

charles binns

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2015, 08:03:10 PM »
Agree with Peter R.  If you are trying to look for spirals and ratios when composing you aren't really looking at your subject.  In my opinion anyway.

Ed Wenn

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2015, 09:01:40 PM »
Talking about proportions, what's the team's view on the use of the "Whole Lotta Rosie" formula in photography?

 ;) ;) 8)

Francois

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2015, 09:12:15 PM »
Well... it could make your composition feel a bit off kilter ;)
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hookstrapped

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2015, 11:20:59 PM »
Agree with Peter R.  If you are trying to look for spirals and ratios when composing you aren't really looking at your subject.  In my opinion anyway.


I think that raises a good point. In painting and architecture, you have more power to compose according to the golden ratio than you generally do in photography -- aside from creating your own sets and scenes to photograph.

Indofunk

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2015, 01:14:50 AM »
Agree with Peter R.  If you are trying to look for spirals and ratios when composing you aren't really looking at your subject.  In my opinion anyway.


I think that raises a good point. In painting and architecture, you have more power to compose according to the golden ratio than you generally do in photography -- aside from creating your own sets and scenes to photograph.

For street photography, that is probably correct. But if you have a model (human or inanimate object) in a studio then you can take as much time as you want moving him/her/it around to get a perfect ratio.

Not that I would ever go that far.

Sandeha Lynch

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2015, 08:28:49 AM »
Quote
If you are trying to look for spirals and ratios when composing you aren't really looking at your subject.

Aye, but that's assuming the subject has any importance.  And to be honest, for me it doesn't have all that much.  The subject may be a trigger of interest, but I am too much a Modernist/Formalist to care about genre if I can achieve the same kind of result in a landscape, or a still life, or a nude.

The disadvantage of 'rules', whether of thirds, the Golden Mean, or whatever, is that they are reductions; a shorthand conclusion of mechanical principles.  That's not to say they don't work, they do, but they don't allow for the wider variety of possibilities.  That's where Arnheim's book is helpful, or for that matter many of the others, like Ernst Gombrich, who have tried to analyse psychological impact in the visual arts.

What I find key is the frame, the break point between reality and illusion.  The challenge in composing is to fill the frame in a visually meaningful way, whatever the format.  This why I find the square most appealing - rather like the structure of a sonnet it is creatively demanding, as at first there may be no obvious way to fill the space.  It hardly matters whether you make that decision in the viewfinder or in Photoshop.

With street photography, while I'm always going to size up the subject, as far as composing is concerned I look at my subject as if it were a cardboard cut-out, and shoot when I have it fitting into the background as I would like.  My concern might be the lines made by the subject within the field of view, or it might be the relative weights of tones and their position within the frame.

One little trick you might like to try, as it tends to emphasise form over content: turn your image upside down and see if the composition still works for you.  I think it helps show up the weaknesses.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 08:35:17 AM by Sandeha Lynch »

hookstrapped

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2015, 01:47:28 PM »
Agree with Peter R.  If you are trying to look for spirals and ratios when composing you aren't really looking at your subject.  In my opinion anyway.


I think that raises a good point. In painting and architecture, you have more power to compose according to the golden ratio than you generally do in photography -- aside from creating your own sets and scenes to photograph.

For street photography, that is probably correct. But if you have a model (human or inanimate object) in a studio then you can take as much time as you want moving him/her/it around to get a perfect ratio.

Not that I would ever go that far.

But if you have a model (human or inanimate object) in a studio then you can take as much time as you want moving him/her/it around to get a perfect ratio = creating your own sets and scenes to photograph


I understand you reading only the first half of a New Yorker article, but only the first half of my post?  :(

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2015, 02:35:15 PM »
The golden ratio is one thing. But I think that in the end, it all comes down to human gestalt.
It's kind of funny, but when I took a few psychology classes back in college, we had an entire section based on gestalt and it wasn't until years later when I read Designing a photograph that I realised that composition is just applied gestalt.
Francois

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Kayos

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2015, 02:47:03 PM »
I compose/crop to whatever I like the look of, if it follows or breaks any "rules" I simply don't care

Its the same with film, when im looking on wordpress at endless over processed/HDR/long exposure/photoshopped to within an inch of its life shots I feel the need to grab an old camera, some film and shoot some REAL stuff

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2015, 04:42:19 PM »
Agree with Peter R.  If you are trying to look for spirals and ratios when composing you aren't really looking at your subject.  In my opinion anyway.


I think that raises a good point. In painting and architecture, you have more power to compose according to the golden ratio than you generally do in photography -- aside from creating your own sets and scenes to photograph.

For street photography, that is probably correct. But if you have a model (human or inanimate object) in a studio then you can take as much time as you want moving him/her/it around to get a perfect ratio.

Not that I would ever go that far.

But if you have a model (human or inanimate object) in a studio then you can take as much time as you want moving him/her/it around to get a perfect ratio = creating your own sets and scenes to photograph


I understand you reading only the first half of a New Yorker article, but only the first half of my post?  :(

:D my time is very valuable, Peter. I can't spend it looking at words...

Jeff Warden

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2015, 06:42:26 PM »

One little trick you might like to try, as it tends to emphasise form over content: turn your image upside down and see if the composition still works for you.  I think it helps show up the weaknesses.


I agree with your comments about the challenge of composing in a square format, Sandeha.  I don't naturally see in a square so it feels vertical to me despite the perfect square geometry, and then I'm left wondering what to do with all the "extra" sky and ground.  Funny.

Your upside down picture brings back such memories of school; the profs would always have us hold our illustrations upside down, or in front of a mirror to reverse the image, or have a friend hold the image far away so we could view it while squinting, etc.  All good tools to be reminded of from time to time.

limr

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2015, 11:45:48 PM »
The golden ratio is one thing. But I think that in the end, it all comes down to human gestalt.
It's kind of funny, but when I took a few psychology classes back in college, we had an entire section based on gestalt and it wasn't until years later when I read Designing a photograph that I realised that composition is just applied gestalt.

Ah, Gestalt. The minute I learned about it, I loved it.

I say rectangle shmectangle. And colors are just a big mind****. I photograph the way I write, the way I cook, the way I...okay, can't think of a third thing. Each activity requires a rudimentary understanding of some underlying principles, but once I've got that understanding, I start playing to see how those principles work for what I want to produce. I think about the parts and their relationship to each other, and I add only those things that add to the relationship. Sometimes I screw up and take a bad picture, write a bad essay, cook a crappy soup. I look at what I did wrong to see how I violated those principles in a non-pleasing way. But breaking those rules can also produce some great stuff, too. Could I produce more consistently good things if I paid more attention to higher theory and applied it every time? Possibly. But I feel that takes the soul out of my work. I'm all about the soul, man ;)
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hookstrapped

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2015, 01:57:31 AM »
If you want a good read on the mechanics of composition, then Rudolf Arnheim is possibly your best man ... The Power of the Center: A Study of Composition in the Visual Arts.

It's a brilliant study that applies the concepts to painting, sculpture, and architecture, squares, circles and rectangles, frames, no frames, etc, etc.  I'd thoroughly recommend it.

Paul, I also carry a frame - it's a brass square I keep as a key ring with a miniature 4x5 cut out.  Very, very handy.

I'm a little more than halfway through the book and it's very interesting.  It takes something fairly obvious, that the visual center has a particular power, and then examines this fact from many angles, as it were.  The examples are fascinating, and I think are a bit provocative in light of the rule of thirds business.  The focus on the center is perhaps a principle that is more successfully expressed in a square format, which most of his examples are.  It's a bit gratifying for me to think about some of my recent work and the struggles I've gone through in figuring out how to compose for the square in contrast to the rectangle and finding that I've ended up in a place that conforms with what he writes about and the illustrations he provides.  But, then again, it's not rocket science, it's the Power of the Center (duh).

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2015, 09:25:11 AM »
Last Friday, I was wandering around the east end of London, 35mm SLR in hand, with the express intention of trying to do some early morning shots of Brick Lane and the surrounding area and, in particular, to try to produce some interesting - maybe even challenging - compositions.

I have no idea whether I passed or failed the test.  I posted a couple of shots on the weekend thread - one of a church (at a rakish angle) and one of some graffiti in the context of it's environment - a run-down back alley, just off Brick Lane itself.  I shot in B&W to avoid colour being a distraction and even enhanced the vignette to accentuate what I regard as the focal point.  I like the shots well enough but, to be fair, ther's nothing that remarkable about them.

So, I'm coming to the conclusion that compositional rules are, at best, little more than a tool to help provide a framework of conformity.  Consequently, a really striking and engaging subject shot well will work better, irrespective of composition, aspect ratio, etc.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2015, 10:03:52 AM »
This is all reminding me of a recent conversation with my daughter about complementary colours, and her realization that she does not buy into them -- not even split-complementary or traidic complementary colours, gasp gasp! Burn her, she is a heretic!!!!!

We should form a club! I don't "believe" in complementary colors either! Colors are simply waves, just like microwaves and sound waves. Wavelength is a continuum, not a "circle" with "complementary" or "opposite" colors. Human color perception is only based on our 3 cones, which aren't even evenly-distributed along the visible color spectrum! ;)
but if you think they're waves then shouldn't there be pairs that come in sync with each other, or in tune even if they're far apart? ;)
/jonas

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2015, 12:58:52 PM »
I was thinking about this the other day I ended up concluding that there's two ways of using the golden ratio. First is cropping to the proportions, something that is not obvious on some cameras. Then there's using the camera's frame like it is and putting the horizontal and vertical points according to the ratio. The second is easier to do and probably has a better success ratio.

There is a good video on the rule on YouTube.
Is the Golden Ratio a Myth? - Brit Lab
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 01:48:36 PM by Francois »
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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2015, 01:37:53 PM »
This is all reminding me of a recent conversation with my daughter about complementary colours, and her realization that she does not buy into them -- not even split-complementary or traidic complementary colours, gasp gasp! Burn her, she is a heretic!!!!!

We should form a club! I don't "believe" in complementary colors either! Colors are simply waves, just like microwaves and sound waves. Wavelength is a continuum, not a "circle" with "complementary" or "opposite" colors. Human color perception is only based on our 3 cones, which aren't even evenly-distributed along the visible color spectrum! ;)
but if you think they're waves then shouldn't there be pairs that come in sync with each other, or in tune even if they're far apart? ;)

Hmm, this makes me want to "mix" say red light and a microwave oven to see if that produces a novel color! :P Or blue and A440! The possibilities are endless :D

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2015, 01:49:25 PM »
Anybody got some tartrazine?  ;D
Francois

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2015, 06:16:27 AM »

This is all reminding me of a recent conversation with my daughter about complementary colours, and her realization that she does not buy into them -- not even split-complementary or traidic complementary colours, gasp gasp! Burn her, she is a heretic!!!!!

We should form a club! I don't "believe" in complementary colors either! Colors are simply waves, just like microwaves and sound waves. Wavelength is a continuum, not a "circle" with "complementary" or "opposite" colors. Human color perception is only based on our 3 cones, which aren't even evenly-distributed along the visible color spectrum! ;)
but if you think they're waves then shouldn't there be pairs that come in sync with each other, or in tune even if they're far apart? ;)
Light wave harmonics? Interesting idea. But the fundamental frequency won't change.


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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2015, 09:08:38 AM »
I was thinking about this the other day I ended up concluding that there's two ways of using the golden ratio. First is cropping to the proportions, something that is not obvious on some cameras. Then there's using the camera's frame like it is and putting the horizontal and vertical points according to the ratio. The second is easier to do and probably has a better success ratio.

There is a good video on the rule on YouTube.
Is the Golden Ratio a Myth? - Brit Lab


Thanks for that.  Yeah, I've been coming to believe the golden ratio is a great example of confirmation bias bullshit, the way it is superimposed on most anything to somewhow demonstrate... what?  I much prefer Arnheim's power of the center idea, with centric and eccentric forces mediated by vectors.  For one, it's not an absolute that gets imposed, but a description of forces that express themselves in countless ways.   

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2015, 01:27:16 PM »
It's probably a much more sound theory in the end.
I know centering works well with square format since the rule of thirds or even the golden ratio tend to favor a certain level of centering with these formats. Panoramic formats also tent to favor centering, at least vertically...
Francois

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2015, 05:24:06 AM »
I've got to say, in my original post, I simply gave myself an arbitrary coping exercise to do, -just to force me to look at my composition from a different point of view, I was shooting square, so I chose the golden rectangle as my aspect.... I had no idea this would spark such an entertaining thread, thank you all for all the responses and different points of view! 

........but what did you think of the photos?
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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2015, 01:08:49 PM »
There's absolutely nothing wrong with them and composition wise they're just fine.
Francois

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hookstrapped

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Re: Working on cropping with the Golden Rectangle.
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2015, 03:04:14 PM »
I liked the photos!