Author Topic: darkroom print troubleshooting  (Read 15068 times)

formica

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darkroom print troubleshooting
« on: January 11, 2011, 09:25:42 AM »
i need some help/advice with my failures in the darkroom. i've posted three prints below(scanned them in colour so you can see closer to the actual colour). i've yet to be able to get a print with true blacks and whites just a lot of gray.  these were all printed on some sort of ilford multigrade rc paper. when i described the problem to someone at a local photo gallery(so happy we have a place like this in town btw) he thought the paper may be expired. some of the boxes don't have expiration dates on them so god knows how long they've been sitting in the shop(or their warehouse). if you look at the tree shot you can see the sepia like discolouration covers even the white borders which seems to suggest that maybe it's a developer problem? on the third shot(a pinhole paper negative) you can see wave like forms. i've had this problem off and on and i'm still not sure what the cause is. the developer is ilford multigrade paper developer and stop is vinegar diluted in water. any advice?

         william

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 10:38:22 AM »
yeah, definitely looks like expired paper. I've got a bunch of different papers with varying degrees of how close they get to black. interesting to work with and you could probably get something interesting out of it but it ain't fun when you expected fresh stuff :/
the waves look like uneven development to me. though I've got some old efke paper that kind of looks like that out of the (old) box.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 10:40:41 AM by jojonas »
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Heather

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 10:48:47 AM »
Have you double checked your safe lights are safe? I think there's some test you do with moving a coin after a few minutes or something. Someone more intelligent might know what I'm on about... kind of like a test strip without the image and also you have to then develop it in the dark with no safe lights and total darkness to rule that out.

Also, what are you using for fix? You didn't mention. Sometimes underfixing (or sloppy print handling) causes all sorts of weird colours to come up).
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formica

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 02:34:57 PM »
thanks for the suggestions both of you. i suspect it is expired paper with uneven development. it's possible that there is some light getting in somewhere, but i don't think that is the whole problem(or cause). i didn't mention the fixer since i can see the result as soon as it goes into the stop. maybe there's some sort of cross contamination from developer to stop?

gregor

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 03:55:14 PM »
could be several issues.  I don't think it's expired paper because it's so uneven.  as heather indicates it could be a safelight issue, or it was otherwise inadvertently flashed. Could be dirty chemistry (fixer) or extreme temperature (too cold or too warm).  Using warm-toned Ilford MGFB IV, I had a couple prints go blue on me last week, developing unevenly because the developer was hovering around 52 degrees before I realized the temperature was that cold. The paper had an appearance of fogging to it and also had a slight magenta tinge.

Francois

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 04:09:59 PM »
Like heather said, you could do a light leak test...
You cut a piece of paper and lay it on the table, wait a few minutes and put a coin on the paper. Wait still a few minutes and process. It takes about 10 minutes for the whole test.
Also, make sure your safelights are at a minimum of 4 feet from the paper. A similar test could tell you.
You also could try processing an unexposed piece of paper. If it's fogged, you should be able to find out. Sometimes, you need to give it a base exposure of white light to get the silver crystals to activate...
RC Paper gets fully developed in about 90 seconds, so you could try pushing the processing time.
I really doubt that there could be contamination since you use a stop bath.
Did you follow the mixing instructions properly? I ask this because I know that the Canadian French mixing instructions for Kodak products are a real nightmare to follow correctly... I had to scrap a batch of D76 once because I was distracted in my measurements. I now read them in English... much simpler.
If in the end the paper is fogged, there is an anti-fog product out there. They are capsules you add to the developer to reduce the amount of fog present.

Hope that helps...
Francois

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 04:31:03 PM »
I'm curious to find out your results as I've had a similar problem with some older paper myself.


Just curious?  Should a person use the anti-fog just as a safety net anyway when using old paper?


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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 05:00:48 PM »
Looks like fogged/expired paper to me. One test I do for old paper is to take two small unexposed pieces and develop and fix one and just fix the second one. Then compare the results and you will quickly see if the paper is exhibiting any fogging. If it is fogged you can add BENZOTRIAZOLE to the developer and may be able salvage the paper. Moersch also has a antifog agent. It's Moersch Restrainer Neutral.

Roger
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formica

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 01:54:09 PM »
thanks for the suggestions everyone! i was finally able to set up the darkroom again today. i tested the paper for fogging as suggested. i also moved my safe light farther away. doesn't appear that there is fogging on the paper and i'm starting to think the paper may not be expired. i think the problem is something i am doing. when i do contact prints i get true whites and blacks but when i put the negative in the carrier and try to do a print from there i either get gray prints or washed out prints. the gray prints i think are from overexposure when printed. if i print a contact print at 1 second at say 5.6 and it looks fine - where would be a good point to start for a test print/strip? .5 seconds? there's probably something obvious i'm doing wrong, but i haven't been able to figure it out.

             william

LT

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 02:15:26 PM »
there are so many issues at play here - firstly, discolouration and fogging etc would have nothing to do with your exposure times ... you say you've now ruled out safelight or light leak fogging, and say you've got the paper to work fine now (unless it was just the first few sheets that had become fogged), so I suspect it was a chemical issue - always use fresh for each session and you should avoid any problems along those lines.  Also, dont forget to really clean your trays well - you may find the problem was due to contaminated chemicals from dirty trays/ measuring beakers etc.  that may also account for the lack of contrast - a contaminated developer can heavily affect print contrast.

As for general contrast issues ... I take it you are using multigrade papers?  how are you controlling the contrast?  a colour head? a dedicated VC head? below or above the lens filters?  if so, which manufacturer? how old are they? Very old contrast filters lose their colour intensity and effectiveness.

A good way to approach printing with VC papers is to use time/ exposure to control your highlights and filters to control your shadows. So do a test strip at g 2 concentrating only on the highlight areas.  Choose the time that first shows the slightest of tone in your highlight, then print a whole sheet and  look at the shadow areas - too light, then increase the contrast grade, too dark then decrease the contrast grade.  Depending on your technique and gear and necessary contrast, you may find you have to work out a new exposure time for each change of contrast grade (I find grades 1-3 need little, or any adjustments in exposure - grades 4 and 5 clearly need an extra stop of exposure but I find they need further fine tuning on top of that, as do grades 00 and 0).

I hoep you resolve it soon - these kind of unexplained darkroom problems can drive you mad.

L.

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 02:18:54 PM »
as to times for test strips - it's hard for anyone to say without knowing your gear, your typical negative density, how bright your enlarger light source is, the size of the print etc

if 5 secs is overexposing, try reducing it or stopping down the lens more?
L.

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2011, 02:19:08 PM »
the gray prints i think are from overexposure when printed. if i print a contact print at 1 second at say 5.6 and it looks fine - where would be a good point to start for a test print/strip? .5 seconds? there's probably something obvious i'm doing wrong, but i haven't been able to figure it out.

             william

Really? Okay my test strips are in the 2second increment sections for 8x10 enlargements (at about f/8 on the enlarger lens I think) for underexposed (thin, mostly see-through) negatives. Generally I do 5 second increments. This changes if you're enlarging smaller or larger because if you're only enlarging to 4x5, the light's more concentrated so you'll need shorter exposure times. Conversely, if you're enlarging bigger than 8x10, you'll need more time because the light is spread out more. It sounds like you're underexposing the paper if anything, not over.

Also, when you checked your safe light, did you check it also in your tray/wet side area? The light bouncing around off the liquids is what your swirly fogging looks like to me.

Try really vastly overexposing beyond what you think it is and see if you can get any blacks at all. Do test strips in the range of 10 second sections and see what happens if anything. heck, expose a piece to house lights (put the paper away safely before turning on the lights!) and then develop and fix to see what you're absolute true black will be with the paper.
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formica

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2011, 03:51:54 PM »
thanks leon and heather for the suggestions - i'll try to respond to your questions each.

leon,

 i don't think it's a chemical issue. i mix up chemicals from liquid each time then toss after use. i think if it was a chemical issue i'd not be able to get somewhat decent contact prints or photograms. at least this time. it's possible the chemicals got contaminated when i posted this originally.

  yes, i'm using ilford RC multigrade papers. the enlarger i'm using is a beseler VC 67 and it has a filter dial(.5, 1, 1.5..5) above the negative carrier. there's a lever on the side to go from unfiltered light to filtered light. the enlarger was new when i got it and is less than a year old i think.

  heather,

    yes, when i checked the light issues i tested the tray areas. i did the test where i put paper in the fix and in the developer. both came out white. also tried a test with the coin with the same result. since my darkroom is really the bathroom it's covered in tile(well, so is the whole apartment actually) so it's very possible there is light bouncing around somewhere. i was extra careful today when i covered the windows, etc. i haven't noticed much of the swirly stuff i had last time.

   maybe i've got it backwards and am not overexposing the paper. i was pretty certain today that i kept having to add time just to get an image to show up(on one print). if i exposed the paper too long then it'd go muddy. hmm, but now i'm wondering if i was misreading my test strips. i can get decent blacks when i do photograms or contact prints, but haven't been able to really get such things from a negative in the carrier.

   i've only been doing small prints so far(i do have some 8X10 paper though) mainly because i wanted to get a handle on what i am doing before wasting the larger paper.

       william


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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2011, 03:56:55 PM »
It could be an enlarger problem. If the enlarger leaks a large amount of light or if the negative carrier doesn't fit the size of the negative snugly, you could get lower contrast.

Also, something really simple to do is to put a piece of black posterboard pinned to the wall on the back and possibly the side of the enlarger. This will slightly reduce problems with stray light.
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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2011, 04:21:51 PM »
Hmm... Are you accurately timing your development times? Are you going a full minute (at 20C) in the dev no matter what the strip looks like under safelight? Thinking about it, it looks like what prints look like if they've been "pulled" too early. Happens when you think it looks dark enough under safelight rather than checking in normal light after fully processing.
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formica

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2011, 05:24:24 PM »
that is a possibility francois, i'll have to see if i can rig something up on the walls(getting things to stick to the tile may be a bit problematic, but i'll try).

heather, you know that's a definate possiblity. i could be pulling things out too early. i don't feel like i was really doing that today though. i only have a small safe light so it can be hard to tell. i'll have to do more experiments next time to see if i can figure out what my be causing these problems.

  how important is the temperature issue? i know it's important when you develop film, but with paper i thought it wasn't so crucial since you can see what's happening before your eyes.

       william

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2011, 05:36:58 PM »
You really shouldn't be doing developing by inspection on prints. You should standardise with temperature (probably not ultra-critical but still better than wildly outside the standard 20C) and time. I think ilford says its multigrade can be used between 30seconds and 3 minutes. I would guess if your temperature was closer to 25C you might go for 30 seconds. If it's colder, you may need to do longer.

Safelight tricks your eyes something awful and actually the best prints, I've found anyway, look too dark under safelight conditions.

I have a little kitchen timer to time 1 minute for my prints... luckily my usual dilution of rapid fix also ends up in the recommended 1minute so my process is, put the print in, time for 1 minute, stop timer beeping, take it out, put it in the stopbath and count to 10, while resetting the timer, take the print out, let it drip another 10 seconds then put it in the fixer to fix it and restart the timer for 1minute.
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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2011, 05:55:24 PM »
Here's Ilford's advice on developing their RC paper. Explains it all better than I could

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200621111052496.pdf

"MULTIGRADE 1+9
On correctly exposed prints, the image will begin
to appear after about 6–15 seconds with these
developers. The minimum recommended
development time for high quality prints is
approximately 45 seconds; after this time there is
a more gradual image build-up. Overexposed
prints developed for a minimum of 35 seconds are
acceptable for those applications where the
highest quality is not required."
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Roger Thoms

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2011, 06:09:50 PM »
Yes unlike film paper is developed to completion. So don't pull it to early, and definitely time the development so that you are consistent.

Also make sure you have fixed the print adequately before turning on the lights. The borders on the first print look fogged so thats why I thought the paper may be old. Turning on the lights to soon could also fog the paper. I generally fix for one minute before turning on the lights to inspect the print or test strip.

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2011, 06:27:55 PM »
Also make sure you have fixed the print adequately before turning on the lights. The borders on the first print look fogged so thats why I thought the paper may be old. Turning on the lights to soon could also fog the paper. I generally fix for one minute before turning on the lights to inspect the print or test strip.

The risk of fogging is pretty low after complete development because the silver crystals have already been rearranged as it were. Brain fart, can't think of the right term... reacted? Once it's in the fix and completely covered by fix, it should be fine to turn on the lights and I've never had any problems with my own prints (though it does take me 5-10 seconds to get up and turn on the light). Having said all that, the fact the development hasn't been completed means it could still be slightly sensitive to light.

The BTZS film tube system works on this principle (developing makes the film less sensitive as long as it's far enough down the developing timing) which is why loads of people use that method and somehow manage to not fog their film when emptying the developer and putting in stop bath and fixer.
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Roger Thoms

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 06:45:55 PM »
I stand corrected, some of my darkroom habits date to my first photography class where I was taught to wait a minute. The ironic thing is that I use BTZS tubes and took a work shop with Phil Davis and yes we turned on the room lights after the film and developer was in the tubes.

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formica

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2011, 02:46:27 PM »
thanks for all the suggestions/advice everyone! i managed to set up the darkroom again today. i tried to use leon's method of printing, though i did need to increase exposure time when using any of the filter set ups.

it appears that the main issue i was having was related to development and temperature issues. i've posted some results below from today. not the greatest prints, but much better than what i was getting.

             william

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 01:49:03 AM »
The prints look better but are still a bit scratchy. Are you using contrast filters? The prints seem to be rather "flat." Buy some fresh paper and stick with it. As for temperature control, I use a tray heater. They're pretty simple devices. You may be able to find one on eBay.

BTW, the two Chinese on the bike are heading in the wrong direction (the characters on the wall give it away).

formica

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Re: darkroom print troubleshooting
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 03:55:12 AM »
yeah, i noticed how scratchy they are too. i was wondering if anyone would notice i'd printed the one of the two on the scooter backwards. good eye.

  well, a tray heater would be a good idea, except most of the year it is very hot here so i'd end up not using it that much.

  i am using contrast filters(the enlarger has them as a built in dial system). i have some other filters i can add on top if i needed(which i think may be the case).

         thanks for the suggestions,

                           william