Topic: A SLR for low light

[Urban Hafner]

I know that this forum isn't that gear centric and I really appreciated that. However, as I don't have the time for multiple forums I hope you can help me out. I'd like to spend some money on new gear, you know

So, I really like my Minolta X-300 and the 50mm f/1.4 lens I have for it. But it's not really possible to go to slower shutter speeds than 1/30th with it, probably due to the mirror (?). With my TLR and my rangefinder I'm able to handhold 1/8th quite comfortably, but focusing with a rangefinder at f/1.8 is really, really hard.

So, I'm wondering if there are any other SLRs that don't shake that much and can be used at slower shutter speeds. I'm sure there are some as I seem to remember that my Minolta is known to vibrate quite a bit.

I don't care if it's metal or plastic like some of the newer cameras as long as it works reliably and has a nice 50mm available for it. Cheap would be nice too, but is not required of course.

Urban

[Ed Wenn]

I know that this forum isn't that gear centric and I really appreciated that. However, as I don't have the time for multiple forums I hope you can help me out.

Urban, this isn't an answer to your question, but I feel the same about forums. I only have time for one. I'm pleased that you've stuck with FW 

Back to your topic; which RF do you have and how come it's hard to focus at f1.8? I've had several RFs over the years and haven't found it any more difficult focussing at the larger apertures.

Also, I can't help on the SLR front because I've only ever used K-mount Pentaxes. I have an f1.4 lens and have rarely needed to hold an exposure for very long at that aperture...and when I have I don't think I've been any more or less successful than with my standard RF; a Yashica GSN Electro.

[LT]

Echo Ed - The beauty of using RFs is that you dont have to rely on the really shallow DOF to focus like you do using an SLR with a very fast lens. And the lens aperture doesn't alter anything in the RF viewfinder.

What is it about RF focusing that you find difficult Urban?

I find it much easier to focus using a RF than I do an SLR - especially in low light.

[Photo_Utopia]

Hi Urban
I'd have gone for rangefinder, I don't know why you find a rangefinder harder to focus at ƒ1,8 presumably you mean depth of focus?
If so is going to be harder at ƒ1,2 that just goes with the territory as far as I know.

Good cameras that are cheap with fast optics I'd go for a Canon RF with either an ƒ0.95 or ƒ1,2 lens.

If you have a 39mm screw camera you can buy the Canon LTM 50mm ƒ1,2 lens on the bay and just mount the beast on your pre war Barnack  

here is an image of the ƒ0.95
http://www.flickr.com/photos/greenboy/4425558624/

[Urban Hafner]

Thanks for the answers, guys! I have a Kiev 4AM which probably isn't the best rangefinder out there. It came with a f/1.8 lens and I just found it more problematic to correctly focus with it wide open than with my Minolta. Maybe it was just not correctly adjusted?

Urban

[LT]

that would make sense.  Sounds like your RF might be misaligned.   

[Miller]

I can only recommend what I’ve used for decades, the Nikon FE2 with standard 1.4 lens is cheap (by Nikon standards) and truly built to last (once dropped in Departures and still did its tour of duty with meter gone).

I can go 1/15 or 1/8 of a sec with no problemo and a 1.2 lens is also available. I shot a lot of low light black/white (400asa) at one point never bothering to carry a tripod and to be honest never got any ‘shake’.
 
Sports a titanium shutter and the last spare body I bought was about £50.00 and uber cool in worn out black with the brass coming through… Leans towards the legendary FM2 and though the 1.4 lens is not particularly fast the camera is really stable and reliable.

Rgds

Mlr

[choppert]

Hello all,

Just to pour water on burning oil....

I find my Leica a bit of a pain to focus in low light!

It may of course be my eyes rather than the camera, focussing with an SLR would be even worse I imagine.

The old Canon RT might have been good for low light (given the lack of mirror slap) but I think the pellicle mirror made the image quite dim.

Chops

[Late Developer]

Hi Urban.

The best advice I can give would be to get something like a Canon Pellix. This camera has a fixed, pellicle mirror that allows light to pass through it. Sony are just reintroducing this in one of their DSLRs and, I believe some of the Canon and Nikon high speed cameras of old had this facility, too.)

As the mirror is fixed, there is no "bounce" and you can also still see the image through the viewfinder and follow the action.

I have one of these cameras. I bought it for the lens (an FL 50mm f1.2) but I haven't really experimented with slow shutter capabilities. There is one for sale here:

http://www.sepiamemories.com/showprod_2975.shtml

It has the later f1.4 lens but these are very good cameras. The only issue with the fixed mirror is that it blocks some of the light. Therefore, the f1.2 is effectively an f1.4 and the f1.4 becomes an f1.7. The camare has a built-in meter but, if like mine, it doesn't work, you need to compensate slightly.

Hope this helps.

Paul.

[Urban Hafner]

Speaking of lenses, I just realized that there's also a 50mm f/1.2 Minolta MD lens. However, I don't know how much of a difference it makes (how many stops difference are there between f/1.4 and f/1.2?). This might be cheaper than going for a whole new camera system.

Oh yeah, and I'm having my Kiev fixed, too. It's such a lovely camera!

Urban

[Francois]

Have you thought of using a monopod?
They can often be enough to compensate for the little movements on longer exposures...

Just trying to think out of the box here...

As for the difference between f/1.4 and f/1.2 that's only 0.444785 stops...

[Ed Wenn]

There's something about the word 'monopod' that makes me smile. It puts me in mind of the way Rowan Atkinson used to say "Bob" in that Blackadder episode and also the word, 'man bag' (or Herrentasche for Urban)...those are just plain funny.
 

[Urban Hafner]

I have a plan, sir.

But seriously, I'm gonna think about the monopod.

Urban

[Mike (happyforest)]

Urban

Why not try a quick test with a string pod before you blow out the cash on a monopod.

This is one of many references I found on google.

http://www.georgevreilly.com/blog/2007/01/18/StringPod.aspx

Must admit not tried it myself but always thought it might be useful.


Mike

[Nigel]

I'm with Urban and Chops on the RF focusing I have a hell of a problem with my Bessa in low light. Where as my old Canon A1 I could focus that thing on a black cat, in a coal cellar, at midnight! ( Well I might be stretching a little but you get the point!) 

[Urban Hafner]

Maybe it's just what we are used to? I mean I've used my SLR on and of for about 15 years now so I had a lot of time to practice. Anyway, I'll get my rangefinder fixed and maybe get a monopod or just try to lean on things for now. And maybe I'll have a look at the XD-7. It might not really help me here, but it sure is a nice camera ... Oh well, and I thought I could stop myself from buying more gear

Urban

[Francois]

Oh well, and I thought I could stop myself from buying more gear

That's what I call a lost cause Urban...

[Urban Hafner]

The 14 cameras and 50+ rolls of film that I own are proof of that Francois. I even wrote all my expenses of the last two years down. Not pretty I have to tell you! Oh well, at least it's fun

Urban

[calbisu]

Interesting debate. And had never thought that shooting with a RF has a neat advantage on not to rely on the aperture of the lens to focus..

Well my own experience is that I had a Canon A1 (still have) with a CAnon FD 1.4, then bought a Canon F1N with a FD 1.2, and even if the Canon F1N was more luminous, as the 1.2 lens itself, I realized that even with Day Light (when using the 1.2 aperture) some of my shots were unfocused... so now I am back to the Canon A1 and the 1.4 lens... Still don want to get rid of the 1.2... or the F1N... but not using them anymore 

[Francois]

The 14 cameras and 50+ rolls of film that I own are proof of that Francois. I even wrote all my expenses of the last two years down. Not pretty I have to tell you! Oh well, at least it's fun

Don't worry... I think my case is a lot worse than yours

[astrobeck]

The 14 cameras and 50+ rolls of film that I own are proof of that Francois. I even wrote all my expenses of the last two years down. Not pretty I have to tell you! Oh well, at least it's fun

Don't worry... I think my case is a lot worse than yours

I think if all the FW's  amassed their cameras and we were to stack them together in a large pile it would be quite frightening. 

[Urban Hafner]

I think that's too dangerous Becky. We might end up with a small black hole

Urban

[Francois]

It could affect the earth's rotation...

[Mike (happyforest)]

Well I think we ought to risk it. (They did say the hadron collider would destroy the world and it hasn't done so yet.)

I am happy to host the pile at my place in the UK.  It may take a little while to get them all in so expect to be without them for a couple of years.

Of course this would give you all an opportunity to increase your gear as no doubt you will want something to take photos with while we are building the pile.  Those of use with partners who cannot understand why we need more than one camera will no doubt be pleased to see some leaving home.

Mike

[Miller]

“Camera On”... The Human Tripod aka Johnny Storm...

Not pointing fingers but if I got a roll of film every time I saw someone holding a SLR incorrectly the fridge would be stocked up.

Cup the camera and lens in the palm of your hand for best support and freedom of fingers... Do not hold the lens only with hands and palms as it’s no help at low speeds.

Arms and elbows should not be flapping like wings waiting for the wind to get underneath them and take you airborne. Press firmly against the sides of your body and keep feet slightly apart with one foot in front of the other.

Inhale, hold and booyaka...  Night shots even with a 3.5, 35-105 Nikkor zoom on 400 asa.

Rgds

Mlr

[Phil Bebbington]

Always worth a mention, Miller. I know I have gotten sloppy over the years along with flabby!

Fine shot as well.

[Ed Wenn]

Miller, I can envisage a small segment on a future FW video podcast where you demonstrate "the stance". It has me chuckling already. Like Phil says though; this type of advice can't be repeated often enough.

Phil, the thought of you getting sloppy with Flabby has me going to bed this evening slightly more disturbed than normal.

  

[moominsean]

i've gotten pretty adept at shooting low speeds from using my 190 and a filter. i routinely shoot at 15 (most of my id-uv shots) and will go down to 8 or 4 if the light is lower. occasionally i shoot at 1-2 second but it is difficult to avoid shaking, particularly if there is any sort of wind. i do the one foot forward stance, or sometimes crouch down on a knee with one hand on the ground to steady myself. if i have a wall or post to lean against, i do. once you get good at holding a larger camera steady, it's pretty easy to do so with a 35mm. or you can get a really wide lens, like skorj's bessa has.

[Phil Bebbington]

Ed, as a father of two I'm sure you've often had cause to watch Jacqui deal with far more unpleasant things   I'm told that good bear (beer - such an idiot and that was sober) settles the tummy.

[Andrea.]

Ed, as a father of two I'm sure you've often had cause to watch Jacqui deal with far more unpleasant things  I'm told that good bear settles the tummy.

Would that be Paddington or Rupert??

[Miller]

 

[Phil Bebbington]

OKay you guys, ease up. I'm from Bristol!

[jojonas~]

Miller, I can envisage a small segment on a future FW video podcast where you demonstrate "the stance". It has me chuckling already. Like Phil says though; this type of advice can't be repeated often enough.

I wouldn't mind seeing that included actually. always a good reminder a friend here showed me how he holds against his shoulder but since he showed with the imaginary slr I had a hard time to remember how he did it

... after some googling I think he was trying to show me "da grip". anyway, long shutter time special is hereby requested for the next video!
I've got some dark times ahead of me here up north