Topic: Printing b+w with colour head enlarger

[roryot]

This is a bit of a techy question, but maybe someone here might know the answer. I have been having trouble increasing the contrast on flat negatives when using c41 b+w film. Even with grade 5 dialled in on the colour head, the print is very flat. The contrast seems much better when using regular b+w film. Is this a characteristic with c41 and a colour head? Or maybe the neg was just too damn flat to be rescued.  I was printing Kodak cn400 b+w on Ilford multigrade IV using a Durst M805 colour head and developing in Ilford Multigrade paper developer.

Thanks if anyone has any ideas!

[Francois]

If the film has an orange base, low contrast is to be expected. It is designed to print on color paper which is a fairly high contrast medium. You might try and use a filter that would cancel out a part of the orange mask in addition to the Multigrade filter. I'm thinking maybe adding a whole bunch of Cyan to the mix might help a bit...

[roryot]

Thanks Francois. Yes, the film is orangey brown. I'm not sure that my enlarger has a filter holder, but I spose I could just hold one under the lens.  The colour head allows you dial in cyan - I think grade 5 is full cyan and no yellow. But maybe that's still not enough?

[Heather]

Cyan really isn't used in B&W printing because it's just a density filter - you'll just end up increasing printing times. What you need is more magenta in multigrade printing to increase contrast but, really, it's probably not going to help. Years ago, Kodak made some B&W paper specifically for printing from colour negatives but no more.

If you want to do B&W printing at home without developing your own negatives, you need to use either Ilford's XP2 or Fuji's CN B&W films. Both have clear film bases instead of the orange mask but are still C-41 process films.

[Francois]

Yep... Kodak pulled the plug on Panalure years ago.
Higher contrast is always magenta (unless you use a cold head). The only reason I was suggesting to add Cyan to the mix is to try and counteract the orange mask in some way.

I know that unprocessed color paper has a baby blue surface. And when you take the orange mask color in photoshop and invert it, it becomes baby blue too... Maybe this will put you on the right track as I've never really tried printing color negs on standard B&W paper.

[roryot]

These aren't colour negs. They are b+w c41 process - Kodak 400cn.  The film does have a warm orangeybrownish base though.

[Heather]

These aren't colour negs. They are b+w c41 process - Kodak 400cn.  The film does have a warm orangeybrownish base though.

Same sort of thing. They're for easy printing with colour machine printers, not for printing traditionally in a B&W darkroom. They're technically "color" because it's c-41 process which involves dye clouds instead of silver crystals etc. blahblah, if you try Ilford XP2 or Fuji CN they have a clear base for printing traditionally so you don't have this problem.

[roryot]

Thanks Heather. Yes, I hadn't used these Kodak negs before. I've used the Fuji and xp2 and no problems. Really I should just go back to processing my own film again. Laziness ...

[LT]

Printing b+w with colour head enlarger? How can it be? The only issue then will be: can the enlarger head stand that? I can't answer that. Can anyone tell me?

I'm not quite sure I understand your question Jonley17,  but if you are asking how can b+w negs be printed using a colour enlarger .... the answer is this.  It is common practice.  On variable contrast papers, you can use the magenta and yellow filters at varying intensities to adjust the contrast grade of the paper - more yellow = softer grade and more magenta = harder grade. Manufacturers of paper all provide charts as to which settings to use on what make of enlarger head to get the best possible range of contrast.  Teh positives of using this method is you can find "inbetween" grades by adding or subtracting smaller levels of the two colours for fine contrast tuning.  the negative (!) points are that many heads with full magenta set for hardest grade never quite give a full grade 5, always a bit softer.  It was for this reason I chose to use a multigrade filter set with mine and keep the head as white light only. You can use it without the colour filters for fix grade paper.

Many people use colour heads and develop their negs so they dont have to start using the hardest settings.

I hope that answers your question?

welcome to FW by the way

[db]

the negative (!) points are that many heads with full magenta set for hardest grade never quite give a full grade 5, always a bit softer.  It was for this reason I chose to use a multigrade filter set with mine and keep the head as white light only.

Interesting- that's been my observation too- but I didn't know if it was just me and my Durst or a wider issue. The other factor is colour heads are generally diffusion style and I think a condenser enlarger is worth an extra 1/2 grade at least. Which made them my pref when I'm printing for the maximum impact out of plastic lens toy-cam negs

[Francois]

I noticed that too. My durst never gives me the hardest grade... it's probably somehow related to the built-in filters fading over time (or the fact that one of the filter blades on mine got slightly melted by the previous owner who set the bulb too close to them).

One drawback is with the exposure compensation. With filters, you simply double exposure past a certain grade. With a color head, you have to calculate the exposure for every grade change... Manufacturer gives a chart in the instruction book which I've adapted to Ilford grade changes. Makes things easier.

[moominsean]

in case this thread was actually on topic and lacking immaturity, does anyone else giggle every time they read 'colour head enlarger'?

[LT]

in case this thread was actually on topic and lacking immaturity, does anyone else giggle every time they read 'colour head enlarger'?

there's always one 

lol