Author Topic: Base not clear with Caffenol  (Read 5011 times)

Roycross

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Base not clear with Caffenol
« on: May 16, 2016, 03:44:47 AM »
Hello,

I'm working with Kodak 5231 B&W motion picture film.  Processing in Caffenol-CM (from the Caffenol Cookbook and Bible). Inspiring results but found the base isn't clearing. Read that adding table salt would help with the base. Tried that but it only created a sepia wash over the entire film. Fix was fresh.
I'm committed to organic solutions. Can anyone shed some light for me? 

Thanks!

Roy in Montreal

Jack Johnson

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 04:16:23 AM »
Hey Roy!

I find that my base is never as clear as I would like, but it always scans well. I haven't tried to print them traditionally (yet?), but I have tried using salt as a restrainer with mixed results.

But, Reinhold is a member here:

http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=138273

...and he's always a friendly and fantastic resource on the Caffenol front:

http://caffenol.blogspot.com/2011/07/salt-in-soup.html

-Jack

astrobeck

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 04:49:49 AM »
who's fixer are you using?

If you used rapid fixer, it should have cleared at 5 mins....

Maybe a little longer since caffenol tends to stain.

Ezzie

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 08:47:46 AM »
If you want a clear base then potassium bromide (KBr) does the trick. It slightly inhibits developemt, but will help reduce drag and fogging. Between 0.5 to 1.5 g/l ready solution. Add 10-20% development time.

Table salt may contain a small measure of iodines/ioidides, in which case it may also help. Depending on film speeds, you may have to add from 5-6 to as much as 10-12 grams of table salt per litre solution. There is one caveat however, KBr is absolute, whereas table salts will contain varying degrees of iodines. The figures quoted are indeed Reinhold's, based on readily available German salts. Had I used those figures here in Norway it would have little of no effect. Iodised table salt in this country is of a much lower concentration. I would have to add so much salt, it would not properly dissolve. A bit of experimenting is therefore needed, depending on what your local health authorities think is good for you.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 08:51:33 AM by Ezzie »
Eirik

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02Pilot

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 12:18:38 PM »
I tried salt in varying concentrations before finally switching to KBr. I was never fully happy with the amount of base fog I was, even with large amounts of salt; one of my main reasons for using Caffenol is because I'm on a septic system, and dumping large quantities of salt into it seemed a bit counter-productive. FWIW, I'm using about 1g/l with HP5+ and around 0.8g/l with FP4+.
Any man who can see what he wants to get on film will usually find some way to get it;
and a man who thinks his equipment is going to see for him is not going to get much of anything.


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Terry

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 07:02:22 PM »
Hi Roy!

Francois

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 09:02:48 PM »
Yes! I'm not the only one in the province anymore! :)

Hi Roy!

I'm wondering if you're having as much trouble as me to find the necessary products to make it?
I know I got my sodium carbo from an end of season sale on pool and spa products (though I probably need to heat it up to make it desiccated again).
Coffee... I got the cheapest most disgusting stuff I could find at the dollar store.
But I can't find powdered vitC or Kbr anywhere...
Francois

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Bryan

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 09:17:52 PM »
I get the Ascorbic Acid from Amazon.  You can also get it at most vitamin/supplement stores but I haven't found it in the vitamin section of any drug stores. 

http://www.amazon.com/Nutribiotic-Ascorbic-Acid-Powder-Ounce/dp/B0017UW5RS/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1463429651&sr=8-4&keywords=Ascorbic+Acid

I don't know if your salt is different in Canada but I use Morton Iodized Salt from the grocery store.  For Sodium Carbonate I use Arm and Hammer washing soda.  I put it in a sealed plastic container to keep it from absorbing water from the air.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 09:20:35 PM by Bryan »

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Francois

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 10:16:38 PM »
I don't know if your salt is different in Canada but I use Morton Iodized Salt from the grocery store.  For Sodium Carbonate I use Arm and Hammer washing soda.  I put it in a sealed plastic container to keep it from absorbing water from the air.
Things are different here... We don't have washing soda anywhere in the stores. I don't even know how big the boxes are when compared to bicarbonate boxes!
As for salt, we don't have Morton but we have similar products from Sifto and Windsor. Since salt is never naturally white, one of them contains traces of sugar and the other traces of sodium thio. I tried using it as a fixer but it's equally as slow as other salts for fixing. One day that I have way too much time on my hand, I might set-up some sort of timelapse rig to see precisely how long it takes for salt to clear film :)
Francois

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Roycross

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 01:24:20 AM »
Thanks everyone for the responses! Big hello and thank you to TerryB for his all his help and for pointing me to this user forum.

I'll try the KBr after I locate some. B&H has it I see. My understanding is that KBr is also know to reduce contrast which is not something I want.

Washing soda must be an american thing, or at the very least it is not a canadian thing.
>Francois, I purchase a 2kg box of washing soda from a health food (Tau) store for just under $11. The ascorbic acid I also purchased at a health food store, 250 grams for $20. Both were powder/crystal form and easy to dissolve.  Good to the last drop maxwell house coffee – 200 gram jar for about $3.50. I purchased a digital scale for about $25 from costco through a friend.

I'm really looking for ways to clear the base as best I can.  I’d like to achieve an acceptable result so when I move to exploring sea salt fixing I’ll know what the base clearance norm is. That is the second part of my project and I’d like to get a start on that as soon as possible. I’ll be looking for help at that end of things progresses but for now I need to clear the base.

Thanks all!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 01:32:15 AM by Roycross »

Bryan

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 04:41:49 AM »
If you're interested in salt fix I did it with Mortons Iodized Salt.

http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.msg108415#top

You can also use beer instead of instant coffee. 

http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=8157.0

Jack Johnson

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 06:22:33 AM »
I get the Ascorbic Acid from Amazon. 

I buy random Vitamin C tablets from the grocery store with the coupon of the weekend and use my wife's mortar and pestle to turn it into a powder.I'm probably paying about $2 USD for 4 oz.

I'm also lucky enough to get washing soda here, but I think it was one of the Aussie 'wasters that said they had to bake baking soda because it wasn't available there, either.

Francois

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 10:57:18 AM »
So crushed tablets do work in the end?
I heard people saying it wasn't the best for caffenol in the past so I'm not sure.

As for the Kbr, I asked my pharmacist last night and he's supposed to return me an answer on that...
Francois

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 12:52:39 PM »
Ascorbic Acid from the baking bart of the store is nice but other than that I just accepted that some films stained more than others.

plastic based ones like them Rollei were better in that regard if I remember right. and t-max the worst, specially expired rolls :P
/jonas

Ezzie

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2016, 01:09:37 PM »
If low contrast is a problem, push the film slightly. Caffenol is a compensating developer, and will work well for pushing films.
Eirik

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Roycross

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 05:00:36 PM »
Thanks Bryan. I found your link a few weeks ago while searching around. Very inspiring results! I'll see if I can come close to your results.

And Ezzie, thanks for the push processing suggestion. I've used temperature in the past to speed up times and increase contrast. I've been over-exposing the negative by 1/2 to 2/3 stop after base fog tests at a commercial lab. My film stock is about 8-10 years old. But I could rate it at its intended ASA and then push in developing.

Francois> I went to a pet store asking about KBr because I read it was an anti-seizure drug used in dogs. The clerk gave me a glazed look of confusion. 


Francois

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 09:01:41 PM »
I got the call back from the pharmacist and he says that he can special order it from one of his suppliers but has no idea of the price or anything... Kinda crazy to see that it's available on the shelf in the states when you think it's an anti-seizure and sedative...

I was looking at eBay for the stuff and was surprised to see how expensive it was.
Francois

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Ezzie

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 07:26:35 PM »
You have to remember you don't need much, 50 grams goes a long way. Depending on the stock, but anything up to a 100 rolls of 120, and twice that for 135.
Eirik

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imagesfrugales

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2016, 05:34:33 PM »
Hello Roy, welcome to the caffenol club. Yellow-brownish fog when using table salt is a socalled dichroic fog as my dear friend Robpointed out. It can be wiped off while the film is still wet, but that's probably not the best solution.

I made a comparison between salt, iodized salt and pot. bromide and in that order the anti-fog-power increases.
http://caffenol.blogspot.de/2011/07/salt-in-soup.html

Iodized salt in the US has twice as much iodine than the european and is supposed to work better, but the winner is pot. bromide hands down. If you want to use salt, try to use not more than 10 g/l to avoid dichoic fog.

Pot bromide does not decrease neg contrast, it's vice versa, the fog eats contrast. But fog isn't as bad as many may think. If it's not too extreme, you can print or scan through the fog easily. If you have fog-free negs you never know if shadow detail is already diminished. I scanned almost black fogged films with nice results.

In every case you need a restrainer/anti-fog if you get uneven development f.e. with stand development. But 5 - 10 g/l salt can give you not fog-free but even development.

As said before, this all also depends on the film brand, film speed and expiring date. And yes, Tmax400 is a difficult film in caffenol while Tmax100 is great and easy to handle.

Best - Reinhold
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:37:30 PM by imagesfrugales »

Francois

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2016, 08:42:53 PM »
Now here's a question for those who actually know more about caffenol than I do!
Would it be possible to replace the Kbr which is near impossible to find around here by tincture of iodine?
Francois

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Roycross

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2016, 02:43:30 AM »
Hello Reinhold,

Thanks for the response. I was inspired and motivated by your caffenol blog this past winter. Thanks so much for sharing all your information and experience!

I did try about 10 grams of salt on a test and wondered why I had a sepia wash after. I'll order some KBr and check my results. Your results are conclusive.  I'm intending to contact print the negative for projection so that builds in some contrast.

Thanks again.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 11:22:34 PM by Roycross »

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2016, 04:19:11 AM »
washing soda is not that common in the states. iirc i did buy some in Canada at London Drugs, but that was ages ago it was called Arm & Hammer So Clean! detergent booster.
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imagesfrugales

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Re: Base not clear with Caffenol
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2016, 01:20:56 PM »
Afaik Arm + Hammer soda is the most common in the US, readily available and is suppoed to be waterfree, but I got a report that it can contain some water, 9 % in one case, and that can be too much without adjusting for the Caffenol-C-L recipe.

A + H soda and Folgers instant coffee are Caffenol legends since the beginning.

Here in Krautland all washing soda I got so far is waterfree with only 2 % water. The common soude cristaux in France has 50 % water, so it depends .....

Thank you very mich for your kind remarks about the blog, Roy.

PS: according to this site
https://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=3005022
A + H Super Washing Soda contains 85 % sodium carbonate (that's what we want) and 15 % water

PPS: don't they look cool?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 01:44:14 PM by imagesfrugales »