Author Topic: Probably becoming a black sheep - FPP (Read 8374 times)

SLVR · « **on:** January 25, 2015, 06:15:57 PM »

*BEWARE LONG POST*

So as the title states I'm probably going to be the black sheep bringing up this topic but I think its valid.

Ive been following the FPP for a few years now ever since Mcduff turned me on to the podcast when we were both getting back into shooting film a lot more proactively. I really like what they did by turning people on to land cameras and the peel apart fuji stuff, Impossible, 110, and APS (well they tried). I feel like they sparked something in all of us to get out and try something new. I also found buying from the FPP store really economical and well priced.

I follow Raso on flickr and see his posts every now and then promoting the latest FPP store additions and it gets me thinking. The FPP really seem to be pushing people to shoot cinema films and weird dup films and that are respooled by FPP. I ask myself, does Kodak Alaris and Fuji get any information regarding the sales of these respooled films? Once you buy 400ft of XX from Eastman and sell it all off respooled Eastman just knows they sold 1 can of XX not 100 cassettes of XX to different buyers. But to further that concept, buying cinema film from Eastman takes sales away from Kodak Alaris. You know, the people who now make Tri-X, T-Max, Porta...

Now I know a lot of us shoot cinema films and weird dup films. But I think its safe to assume that none of us have a business buying bulk rolls and splitting it up to sell. I have no problem with people shooting whatever they want and to some extent I can see where the FPP comes from because not all of us can afford to buy a huge roll of some weirdo film just to find out it sucks or was exposed or whatnot. It does give us all a chance to try something new and different without ending up buying all the stuff that you needed to shoot this stuff in the past. I can see that.

But recently I saw FPP selling hand rolled fresh HP5+. Complete with custom labels with Ilford branding and a nice little "hand rolled by FPP" on the label. Now this is where I have a problem and I think Ilford should too. Anyone can go buy a roll of Ilford film straight from Ilford why would they need to have it hand rolled. The price on the FPP hand rolled HP5+ is the exact same as Ilford rolls from BH and if FPP is buying bulk rolls from ilford they are taking the savings right to the bank. To top it off Ilford likely isn't seeing any sales numbers on the respooled individual rolls.

Something just seems fishy about it to me. To me the film industry seems to be a numbers game. Sales drive production and if the numbers aren't coming in because film sales are down or profits aren't being seen then I don't see it lasting.

Thoughts?

Ezzie · « **Reply #1 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:06:16 PM »

Not sure there is any particular ulterior motive. I think FPP is trying to make a buck or two to finance the shoe. Altruistic Mike may be, but he has to make a living too. I buy instant and the rather peculiar films they manage to get their hands on, oooh and Acros in 120. For some reason no longer being carried by local webshops.

Adam Doe · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:11:18 PM »

They already sell Delta 3200 and SPX2 in 120 and 35 mm format, so I wonder why they are respooling HP5+ at all instead of just selling it as regular rolls. When you factor in the amount of time it takes to hand roll all of those cassettes, print labels and apply them by hand to the cassettes (and remember, time is money) I don't see much of a profit over reselling factory rolled HP5+ rolls. Perhaps there is something preventing them from aqcuiring HP5+ in 35mm cassettes for resale? I'm just hazarding a guess here.

Ezzie · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:23:53 PM »

Not sure my memory serves me correctly, but they may not have been an offocial Ilford dealer for that long. The HP5 hand spooling may have gone on prior to that. No matter, I still regard FPP as a straight arrow. Not counting Mike's recent infatuation with Instagram

Francois · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2015, 09:29:52 PM »

I don't know... I find that lately they have turned more commercial than they used to. He seems to be pushing his wares at every occasion possible trying to make it sound funny. I know he's an official Kodak-Alaris dealer... so I don't really get the thing with cine film. But I find the obsessive FPP store/The Darkroom/Imagine That plugs at every second sentence a bit annoying.

I know last spring I sent him a reply about one of the shows and he answered back saying that he really liked the letter and that he would read it on the show to Matt and Leslie who would be very interested in my tricks... that was more than 6 months ago...

jojonas~ · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2015, 04:37:50 PM »

Quote from: Francois on January 25, 2015, 09:29:52 PM

But I find the obsessive FPP store/The Darkroom/Imagine That plugs at every second sentence a bit annoying.

that's a personal gripe. sure, some promoting is fine but sometimes it feels like half the show (I may be exagerating a lot here though)

it's nice when they have guests because they often spiral down to the same, basic talk about hey this camera is cool and hey this film is cool. it's a jolly show sure (super positive!) but a bit more depth would be nice.
then on the other side of the scale is super negative pdexposures

now about the hand rolled fresh film? I dunno... it's a bit grey area and I'd probably like to hear what ilford thinks about it, before I point any fingers.
at best, they were gifted the hp5 and make a buck of it in a way they already have a process for.

jharr · « **Reply #6 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:05:09 PM »

I listened to the show for a while, but quickly tired of it. Like Jonas said, more depth would be better for me. I get that they are sort of catering to beginners and recovering hipsters and trying to make a buck at the same time, so I don't begrudge them. It's just not the podcast for me. I enjoy The Art of Photography much more. I feel like I come away from that with some knowledge about history or about a photograph or about a compositional technique. He hocks a sponsor's site like Lynda or Square Spaces at the beginning and end, but it's not over done.

As far as hand-rolling commercial film for a profit. As long as Ilford's lawyers aren't filing a cease and decist order, I think they are good to go.

Hungry Mike · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:05:35 PM »

I think the respooling & reselling the HP5+ is a bit strange. Is HP5+ hard to find in the US? Maybe it has to do with the distribution? I have no idea why they would do that other than they got a deal on bulk rolls. But yeah unless there is a cease & desist I guess it is fine.

Quote

I find the obsessive FPP store/The Darkroom/Imagine That plugs at every second sentence a bit annoying.

I would agree with that as well. I've also seen them actively shut down threads on their forums about other vendors and attempts at Share the Love type camera & film exchanges as these interfere with their sales. Fair enough I guess as everybody's gotta eat. But as much as I appreciate what they do, and for the most part how they do it, I find the self-promotion taxing and one of the reasons I don't buy from them.

Quote

the other side of the scale is super negative pdexposures

I'll look at the website from time to time but from the handful of podcasts I've listened to from them, they are the worst. They are like the podcast equivalent of a terrible, snarky, condescending Youtube comment. I find they are always saying things like "If you like camera X, that's fine but that's the worst camera ever made and only a mental defective would use one. By all means continue to take your "snapshots" but you're wasting everybody's time."

jojonas~ · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:22:24 PM »

y'know what my favorite podcast is? filmwasters!!

http://filmwasters.com/podcast/archives/category/audio

...I think I'll load up my mp3 player with some old good'uns...
I'll never stop waiting for a new ep!!!

I think I finally registered to the forums out of pure withdrawal after there were no new ones, as I remember it

KevinAllan · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2015, 07:39:37 AM »

I've never been able to sit still long enough to listen to more than a tiny part of an FPP podcast. Plus, I just shoot (shock horror !) relatively fresh, still commercially available film stock ... and (shock of earthquake proportions) less than 5 different cameras ... so FPP doesn't really appeal to me on any level.

SLVR · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2015, 02:58:09 PM »

Quote from: KevinAllan on January 27, 2015, 07:39:37 AM

Plus, I just shoot (shock horror !) relatively fresh, still commercially available film stock ... and (shock of earthquake proportions) less than 5 different cameras ...

a man of good taste. I'm in the same camp.

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2015, 08:26:22 PM »

Quote from: KevinAllan on January 27, 2015, 07:39:37 AM

I've never been able to sit still long enough to listen to more than a tiny part of an FPP podcast. Plus, I just shoot (shock horror !) relatively fresh, still commercially available film stock ... and (shock of earthquake proportions) less than 5 different cameras ... so FPP doesn't really appeal to me on any level.

TBH, that pretty much sums up my first ten years of shooting after I got back into film. Go on. try it, live a little

Jonas: One day...one day.

Abdul Hye · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2015, 11:42:42 PM »

When I first started looking for photography podcasts theirs and filmwasters were some of the first podcasts I found. They are still going and they still haven’t charged me a penny to listen. They are producing hour long shows every month, which can’t be easy. Their selection of film is amazing. I like that they are making 620 spools and doing workshops. If it wasn’t for the cost of postage then I would order from them. There are some things that I don’t like about the podcast but I just skip those bits.

As for respooling bulk film,, what’s wrong with buying something wholesale and dividing it up and selling it retail? If they are the same price as a rival shop then I’d prefer to give them my business. They are selling a 24 exposure roll for $3.98 which converts to £2.62.

There is a letter from a Francois about 8 minutes in on the latest podcast.

Adam Doe · « **Reply #13 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:59:51 AM »

I'm a long time fan of the FPP and I order a few times a year from their store to support them. They make for great drive to work listening. I appreciate the effort that they put in to produce two shows a month and if me buying film from them helps, then I am happy to help. I also really liked the Filmwasters podcasts, I wish there were more episodes.

Francois · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:17:15 PM »

Quote from: Abdul Hye on January 27, 2015, 11:42:42 PM

There is a letter from a Francois about 8 minutes in on the latest podcast.

I haven't listened to the latest one...I better get it down

EDIT: I skipped through both January podcasts and just couldn't find it...

Edit 2: OK, I just got the one where they read my letter in the podcast. Thanks.

Photo_Utopia · « **Reply #15 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:50:59 PM »

I used to listen on my way to work, even sent Mr Rasso some APX 25 to give away. I think anyone promoting the use of film in any way is just superpositive

SLVR · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:53:59 PM »

Quote from: Abdul Hye on January 27, 2015, 11:42:42 PM

what’s wrong with buying something wholesale and dividing it up and selling it retail? If they are the same price as a rival shop then I’d prefer to give them my business. They are selling a 24 exposure roll for $3.98 which converts to £2.62.

Well there's a few things that come to mind.

Firstly if you buy bulk, you sell bulk. Would you ever go to a bulk food store just to pay full price as the grocery store?

Then there's the potential licensing issues that come from using Ilfords branding, name, reputation on a product that likely wasn't approved or cleared for sale by ilford. What gets me is why they would agree to let FPP bulk roll their own and sell for the same price as their own 24 exposure rolls? Unless Ilford is feeling charitable these days.

When Ilford spools their film they do it with a machine with NEW canisters which means each canister has a certain level of quality control. Each film they produce comes with a warranty and a batch number which allows them to trace back defective films.

The FPP can't claim the same level of quality control as Ilford. Bulk rolling like this I'm sure there isn't a batch number or any way to trace back defects. The film is spooled by hand which means human error is a factor. They are using recycled canisters which could cause dust and scratches and have questionable integrity.

In the end, yeah you're likely getting the same thing but with the risk involved buying respooled bulk film and the fact that it's bulk you shouldn't be paying full price.

mcduff · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2015, 04:24:36 AM »

Ya it is probably a bit sketchy what they are doing with the Hp5 - granted it does say "hand rolled" on the label but they should be more clear, especially since they are making the label look semi-legit. I have zero problems with folks buying bulk film and hand rolling it and reselling it, but they should be totally clear about it.

I think it is just an unintended inconsistency on Raso's part as some of the film has 'hand rolled' in its product name, some has it clearly mentioned in the description, and then there is this hp5 that only has is seen in the label of the product shot. I think it is pretty minor and I really don't think he is pulling a fast one. Most of their handrolled film has goofy, fun labels. I think making it look too much like an ilford label is probably not the best.

The "darkroom/imagine that" stuff does get a little tiring, but I do not think that anyone involved in this (FPP/Darkroom/Imagine That) are doing this for anything other than the love of the world of film and are just trying to make a few bucks on the side. I bulk load, and while it is easy, even if I got the film for free I would not see making a few bucks a roll is a way to make big bucks.

I still listen to the podcasts and I would buy from him if he had stuff that particularly was of interest to me -- I would like to try the smena colour film as an example. I probably do not find the podcasts as engaging as I used to but I think that is because it gets harder to find things to talk about after you have done a few hundred hours of podcasts! There are only so many films and cameras to talk about. I have often thought I should send in what I would like them to talk about but it is hard to think of sustainable subject matter. I was watching a car show tonight that has been on forever and thinking that it was amazing that they could still find cars to talk about. I would probably like if they could find and research about the history of a specific camera each episode. They sort of do that now but I mean in more depth with more facts and stuff, but that is really not their 'super positive' style to be all OCD like I sometimes get where I want lots of facts and figures. But enough about this i am off to bed to fall asleep memorizing facts about airplanes haha

But I appreciate their enthusiasm and I usually include a link to the fpp in my list of links I email to noobs.

LT · « **Reply #18 on:** January 30, 2015, 07:13:40 AM »

As long as Ilford are okay with it, then why not I guess.

The podcasts saw me through some long train journeys when I was studying in London 2010-2011. I stopped listening after that, for no negative reason, just I didn't have the time anymore, and recent years have seen me with other priorities sadly. But that is changing now, so I might start listening again to help me get me photo- eye back.

Francois · « **Reply #19 on:** January 30, 2015, 02:37:56 PM »

I find the car show example quite funny in a way.
Thing is that there's two types of these shows. There's shows like Motoring (a Canadian car show that is somewhat boring) and then there's Top gear. Two shows about the same subject yet one can be much more entertaining than the other.

Same thing goes for camera shows. I think they need to refresh the ads they play along the show. Get to be a bit more off the wall. Insert some fresh humour. Give more tricks and strange techniques. That would be a good place to start.

scapevision · « **Reply #20 on:** January 30, 2015, 04:09:49 PM »

What about "Artisan Hand-Made"?

most of that grants a higher price than corporate produce in the world.
Come to think of it, they aren't marketing it right or to the right market, in essence. Slap a fancy wrapper with some rustic design and call it hip.

tkmedia · « **Reply #21 on:** January 30, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »

Quote from: Francois on January 30, 2015, 02:37:56 PM

then there's Top gear.

darn, thanks for reminding me that a new episode was recorded and ready to watch.

LT · « **Reply #22 on:** January 30, 2015, 08:18:41 PM »

Quote from: Francois on January 30, 2015, 02:37:56 PM

There's shows like Motoring ... and then there's Top gear. Two shows about the same subject yet one can be much more entertaining than the other.

I agree - Top Gear is mind numbingly dull. And mostly offensive.

this sums it up nicely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfrYed7UlJI

(caution may cause offence, although it is done in an ironic sense)

Francois · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2015, 09:13:16 PM »

Here's 46 seconds of Motoring TV. Just imagine one full hour of this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6EKnvhPdZM

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2015, 10:41:00 PM »

I'm not a fan of Top Gear either (sorry!)....I usually stay quiet about things like this on the forum because photography and politics don't mix, but some things are just too important not to pipe up about.

Jeff Warden · « **Reply #25 on:** January 30, 2015, 10:48:11 PM »

I really enjoyed the early episodes of FPP while Duane Polcou was a co-host. He carried a ridiculous amount of film trivia in his head and could let it out at a rapid clip. Funny guy, too.

As for the Ilford repackaging, it's not a product for me but I don't care if they do it as long as they're honest about it (which it appears they are).

They seem like a good bunch to me. I've ordered supplies from them a few times and it's been a good experience each time.

tkmedia · « **Reply #26 on:** January 31, 2015, 05:10:00 AM »

I dont claim to be a 'fan' of top gear specifically. But am fond of just bout any thing related to automobiles.

original_ann · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2015, 01:57:23 PM »

I have been going through the archives and handpicking FPP podcasts to download (ie. only those with subjects that pique my interest). Perhaps they evolve in the more recent shows, and sure - even in older ones, sometimes I need to fastforward. But for the mostpart, the ones I've been listening to are so inspiring and full of interesting chatter, peppered with fabulously kitschy vintage camera / film commercials. It's just what I need to feel connected to and energized about photography
Francois, I'm going to have to listen to your moment in the spotlight! I'm surprised you weren't notified in advance that you would be on that episode:)

Francois · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2015, 02:32:41 PM »

Wow Ann! Glad to see you back!

Sadly they just don't tell people in advance. But it does keep listeners hip up.

jojonas~ · « **Reply #29 on:** February 05, 2015, 04:05:56 PM »

Quote from: Francois on February 05, 2015, 02:32:41 PM

Wow Ann! Glad to see you back!

Sadly they just don't tell people in advance. But it does keep listeners hip up.

like sending something in to a magazine I guess

and yeah, nice to see you active here, Ann!