Topic: need help with a film developing problem

[FrankE]

So I appear to be experiencing a film-developing problem as evidenced by the dark motley area on the left side of the attached image (a self portrait!). This appears in about half of the images on that roll.

I have uploaded the images from this roll to an album on my flickr site if you want to see some of the other images from this roll.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/feberdt/sets/72157645519120541/

Here are the particulars:

-Camera: Minolta Autocord   (other films from this camera have been ok)
-Film: Tmax 400   shot at 400 ISO
-Tank: single MF stainless steel tank,   350 ml of solution
-Developer: HC 110      dilution H (1:63)
-Time: 10 min
-Agitation: 30 seconds continuous at beginning and end, four tank rotations every intervening minute

The poorly developed area is along the numbered side of the film. So the problem is at either at the top or bottom of the developing tank.

I suspect the problem has to do with the developer concentration and/or the agitation routine. I have used HC 110 before but never with this dilution or agitation scheme.

The decision to try this approach came from a post on APUG:

"….Try the unofficial Dilution H. It's just half the solution and double the time for Dilution B. Works great for 35mm and 120 Tri-X. I usually develop for about 10 minutes, give or take depending on lighting and subject contrast and desired contrast in the negatives…"

I guess this was bad advice……

Ok now to show my ignorance. I am still relatively new at developing film. Since the problem area is darker than in should have been, does that mean it is under-developed (too little agitation) or over-developed (too much agitation).

I prefer to use either Rodinal or HC110 developer because they can be mixed from a liquid that can be stored for a long time. Which is the better developer to use with Tmax400 and what would be a good dilution and development scheme?

Thanks for the help.

Minolta Autocord-3 by Frank Gab&Tor, on Flickr

[thatguychad]

You say you're new to developing, have you verified that 350ml is enough liquid to fully submerse the film? When I first started developing again, I was using instructions for a different tank than what I had and I was about 100ml short on liquid. Throw your reel in the tank with the lid off, fill with water to fully submerge the reel, then pour your water into your graduate cylinder to measure. If it's less than 350ml, you should be good and you can then worry about it being another issue. If it's more than 350 ml (which I suspect), you've identified your problem. I don't think it's due to your agitation scheme as that would likely have more of an affect on the entire film.

[Bryan]

I agree with Thatchadguy, when I develop 120 film in a stainless steel tank I use 400ml to make sure it goes over the top of the negative.  I don't know what kind of tank you are using but I think stainless steel tanks have less capacity than plastic tanks so you would have a lower level in a plastic tank.

[charles binns]

The problem, as identified above, is that you are not using enough liquid.  350ml won't cover the whole roll.  I make up 500 ml per spiral which is more than enough.

[Peter84]

I do 500 ml for a 120 roll as well, even got a brochure with my paterson tank that says at least 520 ml....

[Francois]

I'm in the not enough liquid camp too.

[Pete_R]

This is bubbles caught in the top of the spiral. Are you banging the tank on the worktop to shift the bubbles?

To check the quantity of dev needed, fill the tank with water with the lid off and the spiral inside. Put enough water in to cover the spiral then pour it out in to a measuring jar to see how much you need. SS tanks don't use as much as plastic ones and 350ml may be correct. 500ml would be needed for a plastic tank.

Over filling the tank may help with this but you can still get bubbles trapped even if the tank is filled to the top.

Another thing you might try is agitating less vigorously to reduce the amount of bubbles created in the first place.

[Indofunk]

Add one more to the not enough volume camp. This happened to me last week with some old C41 I was using ... each dev cycle the developer loses a little volume, and that problem you saw happened to me when it hit 450mL (I'm using a plastic Paterson tank though).

To address your other question, I've tried a number of B&W dev's with Tri-X, and my favorite is HC110 Dilution H for 9 minutes. I tried the same dilution/time with one roll of TMax, and I think it needed more time. I'm almost done with another roll of TMax, and I'll try that in dil H for 12 minutes.

[jharr]

I don't know. I've done the low volume thing and it made a pretty consistent line of under-development on every frame. I'm not seeing that kind of consistency here. I think I am in the 'trapped bubbles' camp as that would be less consistent. This problem would be exacerbated if your volume was very close to the minimum required to cover the spool though.

[imagesfrugales]

The uneven development is surely at the top of the reel. Does anybody know of a tank that needs only 350 ml developer for inversions (not rotation) for a 120 film? I guess the smallest tanks needs 500 ml at least. Also bubbles or foam are not a big problem if enough developer is in the tank. Here it seems to me that there is some foam in the tank with too little fluid.

Best - Reinhold

[SLVR]

geez, I use 300 ml for just one roll of 35mm! It is also a peculiar agitation scheme you are using. Ive never heard of someone agitating 30sec before the end of the roll. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on why that may be?

[thatguychad]

I think I am in the 'trapped bubbles' camp as that would be less consistent. This problem would be exacerbated if your volume was very close to the minimum required to cover the spool though.

I think this is the issue. My theory is that he's got just barely enough liquid to cover the top of the reel and that the agitation is creating bubbles at the top of the tank...like a foam. It's possible that a gentler or less agitation will help with foaming, but more liquid would certainly solve the issue. I know I get a little foam at the top of my tank even though I don't agitate aggressively. I am somewhat aggressive with C-41, but it's still not an issue with a Patterson tank and 500ml - I no longer use the Adorama tank that required 600ml (but their reels are nice, so I've moved them to the Patterson tank.)

[Pete_R]

more liquid would certainly solve the issue.

Not necessarily. There needs to be sufficient liquid for the foam to be above the film but the bubbles can get trapped at the top of the spiral. They need some persuasion to move which is why I asked if the OP was knocking the tank to move them.

I've suffered with this in the past and the solution was a bit more liquid, slow inversions for agitation (one per minute) and a good bang on the base to move the bubbles.

[Francois]

I know I was warned about bubbles when I started developing. Thing is, if your total volume is more than adequate foaming should be less of an issue. But that doesn't mean bubbles can't get stuck to the film. Air bells will make nice round white spots on your film.

My usual technique is to agitate in a swirling motion (not inversion) and I give the tank three good taps on the bottom with the palm of my hand before setting it down on the counter. I keep my fingers crossed as I haven't had any problem so far.

[FrankE]

thank you for all of the response, very much appreciated
so let me try to answer some of the questions/issues

it appears that I am probably using too little fluid
doing some quantity tests tells me the following

350ml goes to the bottom of the spiral located at the top of the tank

390ml is required to totally cover the top spiral

480 ml will fill the stainless tank to the top of the rim (without cover)

So in the future I should be using 400ml.

What is interesting is that I didn't have this development problem, when using the same quantity of fluids in the same tank, both before and after developing this roll. Attached below is the next film developed in this same tank with 350ml. It is also Tmax400 but this time developed in Rodinal 1+50.

I have now uploaded to my flickr site 8 images from that subsequent roll. The link is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/feberdt/sets/72157645585044023/

Since it is in the 645 format (not 6x6) any developing problems would show on the short side of the image, and there are none there. I think I can attribute this success to good luck and not good procedure.

With regards to the question of whether I first tapped the tank to release the bubbles, I am aware that I should be doing this, but sometimes I forget. Can't remember whether I did it for this roll or not.

Fuji GA645zi-4 by Frank Gab&Tor, on Flickr

[Francois]

As I said, I took the habit of tapping it every time I agitate.

Also, I found that Dilution H can be quite "sensitive" in a way. I used it only once and got very weak negs... But I blame it on the box camera I was using at the time