Author Topic: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!  (Read 11522 times)


Late Developer

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 06:55:58 PM »
Seriously, Andrea, thanks for that.  It's made me feel that my life is beautiful and that I am utterly sane in what I think and how I act.  The subject was so appalling that I'm still left wondering if it's some ghastly p*ss take.  I really don't see that film doing anything positive for tourism in South Africa.  Frankly, I feel desperately sorry for the animals in being cooped up with some of the worst dregs of any society imaginable.  I couldn't care less about the photographer as he chooses to go there.

Truly hideous in every sense of the word - but thanks again for posting.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 06:57:49 PM by Late Developer »
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mickld

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 07:55:52 PM »
Well, I'm not watching that again. That looks like a living nightmare in the literal sense.

Roger Ballen had an exhibition here in Belfast last year that sounded like it was going to be great. I hadn't heard of him before and because we don't get much in the way of photography exhibitions by acclaimed artists in Belfast, I was quite looking forward to it. It was a bit of a shock - too much for me.

But - I've decided to never be critical of artists (I've given up fighting online with ignoramuses over what is or isn't 'good' art), so I'm equally not criticising Roger. But it's certainly an acquired taste.

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astrobeck

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 09:15:36 PM »
primitive and challenging...not watching. 
Makes me wonder about humanity.....

Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 09:28:59 PM »
Not for me either.
The guy who takes out his eye freaked me out.
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FiatluX

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 12:27:06 AM »
He´s not bonkers, he´s boring!

I hate that narrative style, the deep so full of ´him self brooding voice..  Ghaaaaah  ::)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 12:31:07 AM by FiatluX »

Hungry Mike

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 02:06:21 AM »
I don't know if I got that he was full of himself so much as I think he's seeing something different then maybe people are comfortable with and he's simply being an artist.

Maybe I have a stronger stomach, I've watched and looked at Hermann Nitsch's works for instance so maybe I shouldn't talk, I found it interesting enough to check out his work outside of this little hagiography. In anycase, to each to there own.

Anyone catch a look at the camera he's using? A TLR of some sort.

Ummm, if you are not familiar with Hermann Nitsch you might not want to look him up if you're squeamish. He's an Austrian blood ritual artist (I guess that's what you call it) and if you found this pretentious - stay away. 

Hungry Mike

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 02:10:48 AM »
Ah that's where I've seen his work before I knew it looked familiar  - he's worked on some of the videos of Die Antwoord. Crazy.

Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 03:27:31 PM »
All I kept thinking about last night is that the people he's photographing probably should be in a psychiatric ward... or maybe it's just my Victorian view on things...
Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 05:17:13 PM »
All I kept thinking about last night is that the people he's photographing probably should be in a psychiatric ward... or maybe it's just my Victorian view on things...

You and me both, buddy...!! 

Thing is, I just can't see this as any sort of "art".  It can be social documentary, photojournalism or even voyeurism - but, however, well shot it might be, there is nothing in it that I would regard as remotely artistic.
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Hungry Mike

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 06:10:35 PM »
Initially, the doc seemed to set up these scenes that they were from a township, implying by that shorthand, that we're going to be seeing generic Third World conditions. They might have been in a township but based on my limited travelling in South Africa and how they are behaving, I'd agree that his models or collaborators (and they seem to be more than just models based on the work) are likely mentally ill rather than just poor & marginalized.

I know it'd be better to get some of these people into a hospital but sometimes that can be a Sisyphean task and not always the right answer for the individual. Not outright spoken in this doc, I think the artist seems to know his models very well and is helping them in a nonjudgmental caring way. Just not in a conventional way as many of us might. For instance, I suspect the chicken they kill was likely paid for by this artist or the filmmakers to do what they will with.  The doc is short so it is hard to determine his relationship with his models but they seem fine & friendly and are willing to work with him which says to me that there is a high level of trust between them. No small task when you are dealing with very marginalized mentally ill people. So I think there is more going on here.

Funnily, the artist's mannerism reminds me vaguely of Werner Herzog.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 06:16:16 PM by Hungry Mike »

mcduff

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 06:44:11 PM »
I was thinking Herzog too! No little people tho, Mike ;)  Actually it reminds me of even older stuff -- like Man Ray, Buñuel/Dali's films, etc., which were more shocking relative to the times. I am sounding like the "pretentious art prick", saying "show me something new" haha.

While Shock≠Art, I like some of the photos/pieces, a lot, actually. Such as the bird with the little doll on it in front of the painting of the girl looking sideways.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 06:45:45 PM by mcduff »
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hookstrapped

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 11:37:05 PM »
I like it

Hungry Mike

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 03:16:23 AM »
Quote
I was thinking Herzog too! No little people tho, Mike
For the sake of the people on this board let's not go down that path! I've already mentioned Nitsch & Die Antwoord so my eternal damnation might soon follow.

But you know the more I read about Roger Ballen the more he’s growing on me:
Quote
What's the phrase you hear most about your photos from people? 
Many people say the photographs are disturbing or dark. I say from the dark comes the light. It's very easy to read people's depth of understanding of themselves by the depth of the comments they make. So they actually reveal themselves with their comments and most of the comments reveal an anxiety about who they are which we all have. But it's an anxiety ultimately to coming to grips with themselves. The dark and disturbing side is the side of themselves that they are nervous about. I thrive on finding the dark or hidden side of myself. When I find it it's bliss. It opens up all sorts of things. The best pictures are the ones you don't have words for, the ones that leave you in a state of silence. The pictures that leave you feeling there's something mysterious about what's out there. Then I guess the pictures have done their job. I don't feel that the pictures are disturbing, or beautiful or anything. They actually are what they are and the less words you can find for those pictures probably the better they are.
From here: http://ca.phaidon.com/agenda/photography/articles/2012/november/23/ten-questions-for-photographer-roger-ballen/

And he's a supporter of film!
Quote
Do you take lots of pictures on a shoot and then edit afterwards or do you have a more measured approach?

I still use film, so I don’t have a digital camera where you get 2,000 pictures in a chip. There are 12 shots and then you’ve got to stop, change the roll, then put another one in. If I take 30 or 40 pictures in one shoot, it’s a lot. I grew up with film and it’s what I know.
From here: http://www.ideastap.com/ideasmag/the-knowledge/photographer-roger-ballen-interview

LT

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2014, 07:09:07 AM »
If this was pure documentary as a way of achieving social change, I would be excited by the work ... Along the lines of Alex Majoli's pics from Leros. But it isn't. On the face of it, the photographer is manipulating staging and instructing a group of mentally disordered people to fit his own fiction, and for his own ends. For me, this makes the work worthless. 
L.

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2014, 08:44:21 AM »
I watched it again last night and can't help but agree with Leon's comments.  I can't see any link between this video and film photography.  However, I will "google" the bloke and see if there's anything out there which shows what he can do with a film camera.
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zapsnaps

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 02:30:25 PM »
I know that I keep banging on about money, but...

This bloke is very successful - look at his publishers & galleries - from Hamiltons in London to Gagosian in the States - this bloke has arrived.

Do I like his work? No
Do I think it has artistic merit? No
Would I want it on my sitting room wall? Take a guess on that one.

But he highlights one of my on-going conundrums. He takes unattractive pictures and sells them for lots.

Many people on here take beautiful pictures and sell nothing/very little/ some for a modest amount. So I have a wider question: if success can be measured in gallery representation in the leading countries of the world, a long track record with two quality publishers, many exhibitions over decades (and it strikes me that any or all of these are measures of success) then he is undoubtedly successful and many FW (starting with myself) are not. But is the artworld correct to confer commercial success on a lifetime's work of depressing, socially disadvantaged people leading their lives on the very margins. I do not think that he interprets - he simply records. As do many FW landscape photographers who 'simply record' beautiful surroundings, for instance. And yet the art world doesn't seem to value this simple beauty. They want ugly & marginalised. So if I leave my tripod at home, don't go to a beauty spot, but instead go to an inner city crack house and 'simply record' what I find, does that make me suddenly an artist? And can I offload the snaps to important galleries & collectors around the world? And if your instinctive answer is 'No', is it still no if I do it for 30 years? Assuming that I live that long.
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Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 02:57:12 PM »
Somehow, this reminds me of Warhol's disaster series. He said that people are willing to put the picture of an electric chair on their living room wall as long as the color matches the drapes... that says a lot about some members of society.
Francois

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LT

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 04:06:46 PM »
I think he doesnt record at all. He manipulates and creates. His pictures dont even record the people who's homes he is trespassing in. He makes them wear masks that dont just hide identity, they also hide the person's very nature. He instructs them to draw pictures on their own walls of things that he wants to see ('draw a monkey face'), places objects in their hands and tells them to hold them in certain ways. The pictures on the website could have been taken anywhere .. they do not tell the story of where the people are living at all. 

I think if he were to merely record, then release the pictures, at least we could draw inferences about the poverty of mental health services in that place, or the tolerance of the society to allow such marginal places to exist blah blah. This isn't social commentary though. I'm doubting if the place even exists ... the whole thing could be a fabrication.

TBH - I dont even understand why he even makes pictures there? All of the examples on his site could have been taken anywhere.

I do quite like the pictures as the stand though. I just wish I hadnt seen the film first!






L.

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 05:54:42 PM »
If this was pure documentary as a way of achieving social change, I would be excited by the work ... Along the lines of Alex Majoli's pics from Leros. But it isn't. On the face of it, the photographer is manipulating staging and instructing a group of mentally disordered people to fit his own fiction, and for his own ends. For me, this makes the work worthless.

I don't think it pretends to be documentary.  It's more like fashion photography or dramatic filmmaking in that way.  Or, even closer, stuff from Man Ray

LT

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 06:09:20 PM »

I don't think it pretends to be documentary.  It's more like fashion photography or dramatic filmmaking in that way.  Or, even closer, stuff from Man Ray

Yes ... I'm wondering that too now. Is the whole thing some kind of surrealist fiction. If so, I've been suckered!

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L.

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 06:22:59 PM »
I am glad this conversation happened as I am glad to learn a bit about Ballen. The art world would be pretty boring if we all liked the same folks and it looks like I like someone that a few of you do not! (However, I don't want his work hanging in my bedroom, as I have a hard enough time sleeping at nite, haha.)

There are a few interesting conversations going on in this thread. I would consider the main discussion (or at least when I started writing this, haha) is the (intended, visceral) reaction to the film (made to sell the artist and not by the artist). The discussion of the work of the artist Ballen is somewhat secondary (or at least, when I started writing this tome).

Regarding the film, I can consider it exploitative BUT without knowing more, I shall mainly speak to the way it is exploiting the viewer in an intended manner. The film is intended to shock. As I said, the film maker is presenting a worldview that harkens back to the Dadist/Surealist filmmakers from the 20’s (with a stop by Herzog in the 60’s). There are clear references to the “film 101” classic Un Chien Andalou — that whole ‘eyeball’ business as an example:


When I compare the film to Ballen’s work, I find the film to be a bit more heavy handed in the manipulations of my emotions than Ballen’s actual work. As this film is an advertisement for the book, that it presents the subject matter in an edgy manner is not surprising. I am not implying that this film is a misrepresentation of Ballen’s work, but publishers interests are often not fully parallel with the artist. I am sure like most successful artists (which it looks like he is), Ballen knows how his bread is buttered. I would say that the artistry of the filmmaker is inferior to that of the artist it is representing (but it is rare when the reverse holds true). If we are merely talking about the film I find it a bit cliché but it is probably a successful ad for the book.

Now to speak of Ballen. I view him an artist and not a photographer. In the film he calls himself a "photographic artist” — the most accurate term, but if I needed to shorten it I would call him an ‘artist’ not a ‘photographer’. This is not a shit-kick at photography. I view him as an artist firstly as the photographs are a document his art. His work reminds me (both in subject matter and the feeling it gives me) of the work of conceptual/performance artists such as Joseph Beuys and his Coyote stuff Joseph Beuys w/ Coyote

As to Ballen's manipulation/exploitation of us the viewer, I like this quote: "I believe that if a person find my images scary then that individual has been affected in a very positive way. The images have penetrated into the ‘shadow side’ the place of the psyche that we are scared to confront, to come to grips with.” Leon, for me this fits his work into my interpretation of ‘social commentary’

As to whether he is exploiting the people he works with, this is a complex question. The photos are highly highly staged. But if I was forced to “yes/no" answer the question “is he exploiting his subject matter?” I would likely say ‘yes.’ But I am loathe to go down this rabbit hole! I consider it rather hard to photograph people or their environments (in an artistic and/or profound manner) in way that does not have some degree of exploitation and power imbalance. Sorry, but I buy into the concept of the ‘female gaze’ — that destroys 99% of the history of art, haha. I also previously killed a thread by ranting on about ‘ruin porn.’ I am not ready to just where he sits on my ‘exploitation scale’ haha nor do I have the time to figure that one out!

Even when photographs are taken for the purpose of  ‘social commentary’ it is difficult to not have sacrificed for the ‘greater good.’ I have experienced these situations not as the sacrificial lamb, but more have seen it happen with various causes that I have been involved in as my time as an 'angry young man.'  ::)

The difficulty in photographing people without creating a power imbalance is why I generally take 2 types of photos: 1) Photos of my family which I generally do not share with the world (and are personal and treasured), 2) blurry photos of tree branches with a tiny OOF! :-)

Addendum:
We have talked a lot about him (OK, perhaps I am most responsible for wasting letters, haha) but no actual images of his. this is a random image that I like of his from that book:

« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 06:31:53 PM by mcduff »
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hookstrapped

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 07:08:28 PM »
His stuff reminds me a lot of Joel Peter Witkin, arguably more an artist than a photographer also.

Witkin's stuff creeps me out a lot more than Ballen's (I guess that means it affects me in a more positive way, haha)

Indofunk

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 07:11:43 PM »
I like both the film and Ballen's images. Quite a lot.

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 09:05:24 PM »
I know that I keep banging on about money, but...

This bloke is very successful - look at his publishers & galleries - from Hamiltons in London to Gagosian in the States - this bloke has arrived.

Do I like his work? No
Do I think it has artistic merit? No
Would I want it on my sitting room wall? Take a guess on that one.

But he highlights one of my on-going conundrums. He takes unattractive pictures and sells them for lots.

Many people on here take beautiful pictures and sell nothing/very little/ some for a modest amount. So I have a wider question: if success can be measured in gallery representation in the leading countries of the world, a long track record with two quality publishers, many exhibitions over decades (and it strikes me that any or all of these are measures of success) then he is undoubtedly successful and many FW (starting with myself) are not. But is the artworld correct to confer commercial success on a lifetime's work of depressing, socially disadvantaged people leading their lives on the very margins. I do not think that he interprets - he simply records. As do many FW landscape photographers who 'simply record' beautiful surroundings, for instance. And yet the art world doesn't seem to value this simple beauty. They want ugly & marginalised. So if I leave my tripod at home, don't go to a beauty spot, but instead go to an inner city crack house and 'simply record' what I find, does that make me suddenly an artist? And can I offload the snaps to important galleries & collectors around the world? And if your instinctive answer is 'No', is it still no if I do it for 30 years? Assuming that I live that long.

Definitely with you on this one, Zapsnaps.  I genuinely do not care whether this guy is rich as Croesus or poor as a church mouse.  What I can't understand is why anyone would pay him anything to have a copy of what he produces.  Whether it's the film posted in the original posting or the stuff on his website, I wouldn't go to the end of my street or pay the smallest coin in the realm to see it.

The only positive feeling I get from this man's "work" is the inner calm and peace from the knowledge that at no level am I one of the poor sods he interacts with / poses / exploits.  In fact, if I saw him heading towards me with a camera in his hand, I would make Usain Bolt look like an asthmatic tortoise as I would be so far away from him, so fast, you'd see a vapour trail.

I'm enormously glad I've seen his work as it reaffirms my belief that it's the complete antithesis of everything I want to see and everything I want to experience in my life.  For me, this guy's work is Marmite - and I can't abide that, either.
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Hungry Mike

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2014, 05:51:22 AM »
For anyone still hanging in there with this thread, Ballen gives an interview regarding this work here:
http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/19062/1/roger-ballens-asylum-of-the-birds
I think that it is pretty clear that it is a marketing video for his latest book by a youngish filmmaker. Not to judge, but I think some of the choices in the short film stem from film school groupthink. Regardless, though I think it does portray the power of Ballen's work. The artist, in the interview, does elaborate on his relationship with his subjects and yes they sound more like collaborators to me then the exploited.

There's a further video, a little more casual, of Ballen here from the same director:
Roger Ballen behind the scenes on Vimeo

Quote
Joel Peter Witkin
Hookstrapped: That's an interesting comparison. I wouldn't have thought of Witkin. I can see the similarities somewhat but Witkin is way more sexual of course and way more enamoured with freaks then Ballen, while Ballen especially in this latest work seems more abstract. The photographer Ballen reminds me of somewhat is Shelby Lee Adams, the American Appalachia photographer. Particularly Ballen's earlier work with marginalized South African whites (Zef culture as they call it, what Brits might call Chav & North Americans call White Trash). Representationally, I think he gives off a pretty heavy David Lynch vibe. Especially, in that quote I posted above.

While I think McD sums up things nicely I thought I might respond to this comment:
Quote
He takes unattractive pictures and sells them for lots.
As mickld put it Ballen's an "acquired taste" and while a viewer may find his often challenging work "ugly" and distasteful I can almost guarantee that his work is celebrated not because it is simply "unattractive" or because it focused on the disadvantaged. It "sells", speaking figuratively & literally here, because his clear, distinctive and talented vision depicts the world in a way that is so unique and different that it surpasses the medium that it is in. A hallmark, at least for me, of what constitutes "good" art.

Whether the image is "attractive" or "pretty" or "positive" or matches the drapes is irrelevant. Good art transcends those ideas. That’s not to say it can’t be beautiful but it is more than just a pretty picture. Good art goes beyond the competency of the technical aspects of the medium to reach the audience in a way that few things can. A competently shot portrait or landscape can be "attractive" and maybe if you're lucky engender a pleasant feeling in the viewer. But ultimately that competent image is mundane and banal - it isn't an aching living thing but is simply static & purely representational. To be clear there is absolutely nothing wrong with that because sometimes that is what you want and I think that can have enormous value and I can find a lot to admire in that kind of work.

I'll try to clarify. In my professional life, I've met some modestly successful artists, mostly painters & filmmakers but the comparison still works here. One of the things I see that is consistent in their very different art is that their best work has a quality of transcendence. By that I mean, the work is able to reach a place in the viewer that is beyond words, illicit negative or positive feelings that stay with you for days, an intangible feeling difficult to convey in words, a sensation under your waking mind. Purely representational images just can’t do that because frankly they are just not meant to do that. Again, that is ok as I think they are different things with different purposes. Perhaps the problem lies in the how we think of photography? It might help to stop thinking of him strictly as a photographer but, as McD mentions above, as a "photographic artist.” The distinction is important.

In anycase, I think it is that transcendence and the profound desire to see & present the world differently in Ballen's work which makes it recognised and for lack of a better word “sell”. Regardless of how I feel about it, when I look at the work I see an undeniable talent. It may not be my cuppa or yours but it doesn’t have to be in order to be good.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:57:51 AM by Hungry Mike »

charles binns

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 08:41:06 AM »
Boring, pretentious rubbish.


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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 09:07:47 AM »
Hi Mike.

I'm sticking with this one as I've always been firmly of the view (and I see no reason to be dissauaded by this man's work or the arguments propounded in this thread) that art is only art if it is perceived as such by the viewer. 

No-one can accuse me of being squeamish or shying away from difficult / harrowing topics - yet is depicting those things "art"? As far as I'm concerned, no - but others are entitled to their view either way.  I put this bloke's work in the same box as I put Damien Hirst's, Tracey Emin's, most of Picasso's output and, frankly, much of what is classified as "modern art".  I occasionally, have a wander over to Tate Modern and, occasionally, there'll be something in there that attracts my eye and invokes an emotional response beyond disbelief and amazement that the "art director" sees fit to give it wall or floor space. 

Art (both what we define as art and how we respond to it) is intensely personal.  Just because the "artist" or an "art expert" / "art critic" says it's art doesn't make it so.  With a purely subjective medium, how can anyone's opinion outweigh anyone else's?  That would be the equivalent of "The King's New Clothes" story.  By the same token, I can't say "it isn't art" - but I can say that I don't perceive it as art.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

mcduff

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 04:06:08 PM »
Late Developer, I think you have pretty well hit the nail on the head. And as I have said I really do not think this has ever been a “Photography” discussion, but to me it has been a broader 'art' discussion. As an aside, I think he was once something that all of us could agree was a “Photographer”. For the first 10-20 years of his work was very “Photographic.” For example this from a book entitled Boyhood (I have not seen this book and whilst some might jump to creepy assumptions about the content, it looks like it is just photos of ‘boys being boys’ from all over the world):


But I just cannot evaluate his recent images the way that I evaluate my photographs for example, which generally fall within the broad range of ‘photographic traditions.’ I don’t mean that as a slur to my work, I just use a different toolset to evaluate it. I am a wayward drawer/painter and what I intend to achieve when I paint (or draw or whatever in the heck it is I do when I mash away with oil sticks) is quite different than what I want to achieve with a camera in my hand.

When it becomes an “art" question it is all much clearer. Late Dev. it does not sound like the Tate Modern, floats your boat, whereas it was probably one of the highlights to the time I spent in London.

But one last comment in the defence of ‘ugly’ — and I will leave it to my dear old departed mum, when I asked her why we had a bulldog when I was a kid: “I wanted you kids to learn to see inner beauty and not just judge things by first impressions. Sometimes pretty is just pretty, you have to look inside.” Or it was something like that. Now she told me this when she was in her eighties and she could have just been trying to be wise, haha, which she was (in spades). I am not implying that if she was alive she would appreciate Ballen’s latest book for her coffee table, haha, but she was also a wannabe artist and I think she would like to talk 'art' with him. The nut does not fall far from the tree, haha.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:08:50 PM by mcduff »
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Late Developer

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 04:36:10 PM »
Tate Modern? Great place and love the wide open spaces to allow the mid to wander, metaphorically, of course.  I always enjoy visiting as there are often some interesting exhibits.  s with the comment above, I wouldn't always define them as "art" but that's because I don't always connect with them in the same way as others might.

My beef is with what I regard as pretentious b*ll*cks masquerading as something meaningful and artistic and, usually easier to spot, outright and outrageous nonsense that because it is so vile / distateful, etc. gets noticed by some "expert" and labelled as art - making its creator an "artist". 

That's only my view and I don't expect people to agree with me.  However, some folk are a bit too prepared not to challenge the opinions of "experts".  I'd encourage everyone to be open-minded and prepared to change their views if a compelling argument is made that genuinely changes their perception.  However, if it's got four legs, a tail and it barks, it's probably a dog - no matter what other label is attached.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

DonkeyDave

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 06:01:38 PM »
its a fix isn't it?

the eye thing - the eye didn't get removed, if you've ever kept chickens - you'll end up with an eyeless one at some stage, they get pecked out in scraps - 2 chickens...

chicken slaughter - so what, how do you expect chickens die and get eaten? They aren't going to wrap them in plastic and put them in a microwave

the idea of the asylum seems to be that - an idea, it seems strange that the art work is so similar and has a distinct style and theme

I thought at first that the inhabitants were all actors/collaberators, but at least one has physical signs of long term antipsychotic use, so there may be some underlying mental illness. In my experience patients with mental illness don't do what lay people would see as mad or bizarre, they are mostly shit scared and paranoid. The idea of some bloke coming and regularly photographing them would put their paranoia levels through the roof.

I read all the comments first and then watched the video, I found it stangely captivating, but struck me as being performance art rather than reality.

Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 09:35:41 PM »
Thinking about it, I'm starting to make some connections with raw art.
http://www.rawvision.com/
Francois

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LT

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2014, 07:35:20 AM »

. In my experience patients with mental illness don't do what lay people would see as mad or bizarre, they are mostly shit scared and paranoid. The idea of some bloke coming and regularly photographing them would put their paranoia levels through the roof.

I read all the comments first and then watched the video, I found it stangely captivating, but struck me as being performance art rather than reality.

I do now think it is a fix, but I think he is still manipulating people who don't thave capacity to consent to what he is doing for the video at least ... The photos don't even show them, so less of an issue. I'm not so sure about the paranoid thing though Dave - in my experience, those with chronic illnesses, once the more active positive symptoms burn out, and the cognitive decline sets in, tend to become less openly concerned by fear. The old long stay patients who now live in those long-stay-wards-by-the-sea all along the south English coast - many of the people I used to work with could have easily been coerced into doing something like this video on their daily wanderings, and none would have been the wiser.
L.

DonkeyDave

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2014, 09:47:57 AM »
You are of course right Leon, but the chronic and burnt out are often that way secondary to a lifetime of neuroleptics, I'm not sure those in slums in South Africa have access to the sort of long term health care that is needed to get to that burnt out state.
Having watched the video again, the behaviour and acceptance of manipulation could be explained if this were a group of people with learning difficulties rather than mental illness. That thought leaves a nasty taste in the mouth if it were true. People with learning difficulties need a strong social and family support, that might not easily be found in the area of SA depicted.

Whatever, as 'art' is has done its job of provoking thought and discussion.

Andrea.

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2014, 10:02:09 AM »
Apologies.

However, the discussions have been most illuminating for which many thanks.


mcduff

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To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2014, 11:54:09 PM »
Hi Andrea. No need for apologies. As someone who, I guess, defended his art, I have gotten a lot out of this thread. In fact it has made me process through a bit of stuff over my feelings about art, esthetics, beauty, exploitation vs art, etc. and that is always good. In fact it has prompted me to dig out my oilsticks and start mashing away on paper with them ;-) - the only downside to that is that is will compete with photography for my spare time haha.

I also have agreed with many of the critical points raised - not to start the discussion again haha.
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Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 12:59:56 PM »
No need to apologize, we haven't had a good lively discussion like that in a long time!
Francois

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Diane Peterson

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 07:03:49 PM »
VERY interesting discussion..I looked at the video and checked out his work a few weeks ago. I can appreciate that every single one of us has a different idea about art, what it should be, etc. I have recently received inquiries from as many as four galleries interested in my work send wanting to put together a show sometime next year. And guess what, they are all interested on focusing on my "mannequins".. I secretly think many out there think I am a bit strange building my own "people " to photograph...and then to find that some galleries like this work. So, there is a place  for everything, but when  a persons  disability is used as a basis for another to promote his  or her 'art', and this is how I view this, I think it is unforgivable. Strong sentiment maybe, but it is what I think. The work made me uncomfortable, which is not the worst thing that can happen, but it all seemed so superficial with a dollar sign as the ultimate goal..and not for the subjects.


hookstrapped

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 12:36:47 PM »
VERY interesting discussion..I looked at the video and checked out his work a few weeks ago. I can appreciate that every single one of us has a different idea about art, what it should be, etc. I have recently received inquiries from as many as four galleries interested in my work send wanting to put together a show sometime next year. And guess what, they are all interested on focusing on my "mannequins".. I secretly think many out there think I am a bit strange building my own "people " to photograph...and then to find that some galleries like this work. So, there is a place  for everything, but when  a persons  disability is used as a basis for another to promote his  or her 'art', and this is how I view this, I think it is unforgivable. Strong sentiment maybe, but it is what I think. The work made me uncomfortable, which is not the worst thing that can happen, but it all seemed so superficial with a dollar sign as the ultimate goal..and not for the subjects.

That's great to hear about the galleries interested in your work.  I think it fits more with conceptions of art, in contrast to straight photography, if something is created or staged, then photographed.  Congratulations!

LT

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2014, 02:00:46 PM »
yes - very much congrats to Diane. Well done :)
L.

Francois

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2014, 02:40:22 PM »
Diane: Looks like all your hard work paid off :)
Francois

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Late Developer

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2014, 07:04:24 PM »
Diane: Looks like all your hard work paid off :)

Seconded.  Well done, Diane - I'm sure it'll be a great exhibition.  Don't forget to post some photos of the exhibits.  :)
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

Diane Peterson

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Re: To be honest, I think he is bonkers!
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2014, 03:24:36 PM »
Thanks everyone! It will be awhile! Prolly next year or the end of this one.