Author Topic: Any POP users?  (Read 11035 times)

Photo_Utopia

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Any POP users?
« on: July 21, 2010, 07:44:11 PM »
Just wondering how many of you filmwasters have used printing out paper?
I have had 20 sheets in a draw for a few years now and only just recently got round to using them.
Here are some results, the first is straight from the contact frame only using the sun:



The second has been 'processed in water for 60 secs


The water is needed make the image permanent but changes it to orange, I prefer the un-processed.
Could I fix the unprocessed in hypo to keep it from solarisation and thus keep the plummy brown colour?
Does anyone know?
Mark
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 07:59:00 PM by Photo_Utopia »
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Francois

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 09:08:29 PM »
POP paper does need fixing in hypo to become permanent.

You shouldn't show recent POP prints this here... it would make Ed cry like a baby  ;)
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CarlRadford

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 09:31:00 PM »
Copied in full from a wet plate collodion forum where people are making there own paper with very good results!


Collodio-Chloride Printing Out Paper also known as Collodion Aristotype Paper

By Mark Osterman

Process Historian,

Advanced Residency Program in Photograph Conservation

George Eastman House, International Museum of Photography, Rochester, NY

The use of collodion for emulsion processes was first suggested by Marc Gaudin in1861 but his efforts never went further than the experimental stage. Collodion chloride emulsion papers were made commercially by G. Wharton Simpson as early as 1865, but the papers were not universally accepted until the1880s when clay coated paper stock was adopted for photography. In 1884 Liesegang introduced a collodion chloride emulsion for paper which he called Aristotype, a name that is associated with both gelatin and collodion chloride papers manufactured by the Aristotype Company in Jamestown, New York.

Collodion, the binder for this emulsion, is a clear viscous solution made by dissolving nitrated cellulose in ether and alcohol. Needles to say, it is flammable and you should take care not to expose open containers of collodion or coat papers in the presence of sparks or flames.

The Aristotype Company in Jamestown, NY introduced the most popular collodion papers in two different finishes; glossy and matte. The formula below is for making a glossy finish paper. Glossy papers were typically toned to a purple brown using gold chloride. Matte papers were tone with platinum and gold and look very much like a platinum print. Regardless of the finish or toning approach, collodion papers were the most archival of all silver halide photographic papers and are easily identified today because they are usually found in excellent condition.

Collodio-Chloride Emulsion   

Formulae and emulsion mixing directions:

The alcohol listed in this formula is ethyl alcohol (also known as ethanol or grain alcohol). The strength should be as strong as possible since water will be used to dissolve some of the solid chemicals. Some water is necessary in collodion formulas, but too much will cause chambered markings in the film called “crepe lines.”

The following can be done under common household light.

Solution A


Strontium Chloride     1 gram

Alcohol                       4 mls

Glycerin                      4 mls

Distilled Water           5 mls

Add the strontium chloride to distilled water and dissolve by gentle heat and agitation using a glass rod. Add to this the alcohol and glycerin and mix well.

Solution B

Collodion USP           250 mls

Alcohol                         85 mls

Add the alcohol to the collodion and mix until dissolved. Add chloride solution A to the collodion solution B and mix well. This is now called “Salted Collodion.”

Solution C

Citric acid                       1.8 grams

Alcohol                            2 mls

Add the citric acid to the alcohol and mix until dissolved. Add this to the Salted Collodion Solution.

Solution D

Silver Nitrate                 6 grams

Distilled Water              7 mls

Alcohol                        20 mls

Add the silver nitrate to some of the distilled water and dissolve. The less water you use to dissolve the silver the better. Add the alcohol to the silver solution and mix until dissolved.

You will now have two distinct solutions; the Salted Collodion and the Silver Nitrate. The emulsion is made by carefully combining these two solutions.

Making the Emulsion

A mechanical magnetic stirrer is great for emulsion making. In lieu of that, you may stir the solution with a glass rod in one hand while adding the silver solution with the other. The following should performed under safelight conditions, using either amber or red light.

Making an emulsion, either gelatin or collodion, involves adding silver nitrate solution in a controlled manor to the halide solution with constant agitation. The silver may be added by using a plastic hypodermic syringe with a fine opening. In collodion emulsions the silver may be added in a thin continuous spray while the collodion solution is being stirred. As the silver is added the collodion will change from a clear liquid to an opalescent color.

Once the silver is added, pour the emulsion into a very dark brown glass bottle, or better yet search your local antique shop for the less common black glass bottle. Cork the bottle and shake it vigorously for a couple of minutes. Set the bottle aside, undisturbed for at least a day. Never allow the emulsion to be shaken again, as this will stir up any precipitates and produce millions of fine bubbles, both of which will make it impossible to make an even coating. The mixed emulsion has a remarkable shelf life if kept in a cool dark place.

Coating Paper with Collodio-Chloride Emulsion

Because collodio-chloride emulsions are alcohol/ether based, paper for coating must be either heavily sized with hardened gelatin or coated with a baryta layer. The baryta layer (as used in all commercial gelatin based photographic papers) contains an inert white solid suspended in hardened gelatin. Baryta coated papers are becoming more difficult to find as traditional silver based photographic papers fall from the marketplace. If uncoated papers are used, the solvents in the collodion emulsion will flow right through the paper fibers.

Cut a sheet of glass an inch larger on all sides than the paper you wish to coat. De-sharpen all the edges with a sharpening stone to prevent accidental cuts. Fold up a ½”margin on all the edges of your paper and carefully secure the paper onto the glass sheet using small pieces of masking tape.

If you already do the wet collodion process, the following technique is the same for coating plates. Holding the glass supporting the paper in one hand, pour the collodion emulsion onto the center of the paper. Tilt the paper so that the emulsion flows to all the corners covering the entire sheet. Pour off the excess emulsion from one corner back into the bottle. This draining step may result in diagonal lines forming in the surface of the coating. To prevent these, rock the plate from side to side during the draining step. Keep the corner from which the collodion was drained lower than the rest until the collodion starts to set to a firm gel.

Once the collodion has set, carefully detach the paper and pin it up by one corner to dry in a darkened room. Because collodion emulsions are solvent based, the emulsion will dry to a hard film in minutes. Once coated, it can be printed immediately or preserved for days in a light tight box. Collodion printing out paper is toned and processed using the same technique as described in the salt printing directions.

The only difference between collodion coated papers and all the others is that during processing the paper may curl slightly. This is because the collodion side will not easily absorb the processing solutions. This effect can be corrected by using solutions slightly warmed or a smaller quantity of solutions in each tray

Photo_Utopia

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 09:54:02 PM »
Thanks for that Francois and Carl, I have only been playing but I like the process, its something I've been meaning to do for a few years.
The making of my own papers seems at the moment a little extreme, but as POP is no longer available I just might someday.
Another similar product caught my eye recently, made by a local toy manufacturer a type of paper that turns blue in sunlight:

http://www.tobar.co.uk/find/category-is-Gifts/category-is-Create+And+Discover/product-is-02278

I'm sure that I'll try some soon, I am as my wife puts it 'mad as a badger'.
Mark
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Ed Wenn

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 12:00:41 AM »
Hi Mark, I love POP and have a few runs at it over the last 3 years, but never long enough to remember what I did that worked...and so next time I have to start over again  ;)

I have 30-40 POP sheets left however, so my journey isn't yet over. Am hoping to be able to use some 5x4 negs for contacting printing rather than making digital negs on acetate from scans.

Here's one of my more successful POP prints:



...although to be fair, most of them have been pretty presentable; I just never got round to scanning them for some reason. All were from 35mm negs which I enlarged. I used Hypo to fix, BTW.

Photo_Utopia

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 10:41:26 AM »
Interesting shot, nice chocolate brown/red on my monitor. When I take the POP out of the printing frame it is a wonderful plummy brown, obviously in this state its unstable and will fog in light.
What I have then done is put the print in plain water for 1 min this changes the tone to orange brown, which is OK but I prefer the plum colour.
I'm guessing if I soak the plummy print in plain hypo it will go orange anyhow so I'll probably scan them as soon as they come out of the contact printer and then process.

I like POP it's a unique and very rewarding process, my kids found it interesting 'magic' which I have to agree indeed it is-I'm glad I got to try it.

I'm going to get the Tobar Cyan paper version (I linked to) as if they're still making the paper it must be the only POP in production.
Mark
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Heather

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 01:54:34 PM »
Totally different process but, have you tried toning after fixing and rinsing? I make my van dyke brown prints more dark-brown/black-brown with gold toner (not cheap but it does the job). Gold toner on conventional Warm Tone B&W paper is suppose to make it much "cooler" than normal paper and gold toner so maybe that's the answer to getting your purple-brown tones back. Just make sure you rinse it well after the hypo/fix... i forget why, I could look in my Tim Rudman darkroom book but it can mess up the toners I guess.

Have you checked Alternative Photography's website? They have some stuff on POP or did... hmm nope not anymore, I can't find things so easily now they've "redesigned" their site  :-\

AH! Unblinking Eye has a huge thing on POP
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/POP/pop.html
along with the idea of toning in Gold Toner before fixing (to preserve density) and it does move it to a more "purple" tone. It also mentions a very dilute solution of selenium toner(after fixing) can also turn it slightly purple but not as well as the gold toner can and gold toner *after* fixing can turn it nearly black in tones.

So the usual answer is: you can't get there from here.

Also thought that POP needed fixing regardless as someone has already said. It's only cyanotype that can be washed to be fixed. VDB has to be washed then fixed, same for salt, albumen, etc.
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calbisu

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 02:49:42 PM »
Ed, is that by any chance Tirana from Albania?  ::)

Photo_Utopia

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 10:42:14 AM »
Thank you for you advice Heather, the instructions mention the gold toner and toning is surely the way to go as the orange/red tones don't suit my subjects.
I didn't see any mention of the need to fix in the instructions but I have hypo so will probably do that later...

I think with only 15 sheets left this may ultimatelty be a beautiful dead end, I am going to get my hands on the cyan blue Tobar product which I have seen for £3.50 for 10 sheets- the summer is going to be busy though as I'm trying to generate some images for an exhibition in October.
Mark
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Ed Wenn

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 06:08:36 PM »
Ed, is that by any chance Tirana from Albania?  ::)

Correct, Carlos. Well spotted! I spent a few days there with some friends 3 years ago. We loved it: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=albania&w=73515369%40N00

calbisu

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 09:33:30 PM »
Nice shots Ed!! Thats Albania for sure! I spent a long harsh winter during 2007 elections in Shkoder. I still remember the cold...

Heather

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2010, 03:19:42 PM »
Thank you for you advice Heather, the instructions mention the gold toner and toning is surely the way to go as the orange/red tones don't suit my subjects.
I didn't see any mention of the need to fix in the instructions but I have hypo so will probably do that later...

I think with only 15 sheets left this may ultimatelty be a beautiful dead end, I am going to get my hands on the cyan blue Tobar product which I have seen for £3.50 for 10 sheets- the summer is going to be busy though as I'm trying to generate some images for an exhibition in October.
Mark

You do realise the sun printing paper's just cyanotype, yes? (Don't use hypo with that. just water to wash out any remaining sensitiser). You can coat cyanotype at home easily and cheaply... It is strictly a printing out process but it'd not call it POP purely because that's a silver-based process specifically. There's printing-out formulas for platinum and palladium printing too but that's really not called POP.
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Photo_Utopia

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 07:43:28 PM »
Hi Heather yes I realise the Tobar product is Cyanotype. If interests me because a toy shop near me has a load and I won't need to coat my own paper as I only use 4x5 negs a 5x7 sheet is ample and at 35p a sheet where can I go wrong?

As I'm not so interested in digital interneg stages I think I'll be keeping them small for this project.

Platinum printing interests me because of the results I've seen are wonderful, especially with high key light-I am right in thinking Ian Leake on APUG uses that process? 
Mark
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Heather

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 09:16:01 PM »
My costings for cyanotype are much less than 35p/sheet for that size, I'm sure. My biggest cost has always been the paper itself, I'm currently using Arches Platine for it.
I don't do digital negatives either. I only do 4x5 film (or 6x9cm 120 negs) but sometimes 4x5 looks nice on an 8x10 piece of paper.

Yes Ian uses that process... but the high key can really eat up your money. I think I'm safe in saying I'm friends with Ian and have seen his work and negatives... and the actual cost of materials is about 20times more than cyanotype. pt/pd is a little scary in that sense :) Admittedly, Ian's prints are usually 8x10 or larger and absolutely beautiful. I'm quite pleased I'm blessed to have one of his prints.
He does workshops if you're interested but he's now based out near Wales.
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Robert Hall

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2010, 09:39:12 PM »
If one fancies Platinum printing, one might consider Vandyke printing. Pennies on the Pound considering the cost of both processes.

Vandykes render a very similar tonal range and are as easy to do as Platinum prints.

Just a suggestion. :)

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2010, 10:15:49 PM »
Carbon process also gives results which can be quite similar to Platinum/Palladium printing
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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2010, 10:20:28 PM »
Extraordinarily beautiful, but I couldn't recommend it to the faint of heart.

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2010, 05:08:39 PM »
Ok, you guys have inspired me to do some POP. I have ordered the one chem I lack and will coat paper this weekend.

I will scan some prints when finished.

R

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2010, 07:29:23 PM »
Ok, you guys have inspired me to do some POP. I have ordered the one chem I lack and will coat paper this weekend.

I will scan some prints when finished.

R

looking forward to seeing your results Robert!
L.

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 10:13:46 PM »
Ok, I have now sized, coated, printed, toned, and processed about 40 sheets of POP.

I need to get a photo of the finished product, but that will be a bit later as I have a trip for which to pack.

But here are some from the sheets as I was processing in my darkroom...


LT

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2010, 10:48:45 PM »
Robert - you are, as they say, The Man.

I'm speechless.
L.

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2010, 11:35:28 PM »
ditto here...
Francois

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sapata

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 11:49:09 PM »
wow :o
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LT

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2010, 08:32:05 AM »
Robert - would you be able to give us a review of the process including any potential pitfalls, your exposure techniques and how economic each finished print is?

I'm asking a lot, but we'd love to have this for our Articles section if you have the time.

Thanks. 
L.

Photo_Utopia

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2010, 09:12:51 AM »
Robert
Well done, I think you should write an article-I'm very impressed ;D
Not just by your technical know how, but also with your darkroom....
There's more to this photography thing than meets the eye.

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2010, 10:11:19 AM »
damn, this seems like fun stuff~
/jonas

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2010, 02:32:57 PM »
It was/is a great learning experience. I would have a lot to share about the process. Let me see what I do.

Thank you for the kind responses.

Cheers,

Robert

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2010, 02:42:03 PM »
Robert
Well done, I think you should write an article-I'm very impressed ;D
Not just by your technical know how, but also with your darkroom....

The darkroom is a behemoth, I have 2 rooms, this is the drying room/film room. All together it's about 70sq meters or about 800 sq feet. I built it to have friends over and an occasional workshop. :) 

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2010, 08:49:23 PM »
Wow! Me be speechless too, Robert. I love POP and thought I might have to let it go, but now...I see there's maybe light at the end of this particular tunnel. Where are you based, BTW?

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Re: Any POP users?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2010, 08:57:44 PM »
Thanks!

I think it is quite a unique process and may not work with all images but once grasped, I think it has quite a bit of use left in the process.

I have some controls over the contrast, more than dichromates as highlight restrainers so there is quite a range and would work well on enlarged negatives.

I am located in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA.

Regards,

R