Author Topic: Grown-up medium format: what would you buy? (Read 7701 times)

Nigel · « **on:** March 13, 2009, 08:52:55 AM »

I got back into photography properly about a year ago when I bought a Holga 120N and I really love the square format. Since then I've also bought an Agfa Isola II which I also really like using, but I've got a real hankering for a proper 'grown-up' medium format camera. But which one?

I first off thought that a Mamiya 6 was the way to go, but they're not exactly easy to find and I've read all this business about needing to get the lenses calibrated to the body or it can all go horribly wrong. Which sort of frightened me.

So then I thought Bronica. Not too expensive, reasonably available. I went to Aperture Photographic in London, my favourite secondhand camera shop, and the very friendly guy spent 5 minutes telling me why I shouldn't buy one - not reliable, not made any more etc. etc. He suggested a Hassleblad 500 c/m (i think), starting at about 650 pounds, which is at the top of my budget (or Mrs Wildberry's budget, which is sort of the same thing!)

So I thought I'd ask my Filmwasting chums for their recommendations. I want:

120 Square format
Max. 650 pounds-ish
Reasonably available
Interchangeable lenses

I think that's about it.

thanks
Nigel

Andrea. · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:09:50 AM »

Well, I have some sort of Hasselblad and it is alright. Not any better than the KOWA 6 but easier to use than the Perkeo. But, if you can get a Perkeo II http://www.certo6.com/cam/perkeo.html with a rangefinder that would probably be cheaper and excellently small and portable. Nice lens too. Or a Certo with coupled rangefinder http://www.certo6.com/cam/certo6.html. I like folders

LT · « **Reply #2 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:23:57 AM »

Bronica are perfectly reliable, good sharp lenses and cheap these days. I think the salesman was being a salesman. That said, Hasseys can be cheap too, and if I were starting again, I'd get one, purely because of the manual nature of them, I dont really like relying on batteries. the lenses are still quite steep though.

I think Hasselblad only make the 503 cm now from their traditional range, so old hasseys will still have the not made anymore problem ... that said, there are independent camera repairers around still.

I've not heard anything about getting lenses calibrated for the mamiya 6 - mine hasnt had any such thing and works fine.

mikeg · « **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:48:09 AM »

Take a look at the Mamiya TLR range. Especially the newer ones the C220f, C330f and C330s. The lenses are excellent and interchangeable, ranging from 55mm to 250mm. The C220 are the cheaper and slightly lighter model, the C330 have interchangeable focussing screens, automatic parallax indicator.

They're built like tanks, lots of them around as they were the standard wedding photogs kit. Also, very cheap. The 55mm lens goes for 100 pounds or so, but you can pick up a c220f with 80mm for roughly the same price.

Mike

moominsean · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:49:52 AM »

i like my kowa six quite a bit, i think i paid $300US for it, and my Rolleiflex was only $160. Sometimes you get a decent camera for a decent price, but then the lenses and accessories cost more than the original camera....

david b · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2009, 10:53:35 AM »

Quote from: _wildberry_ on March 13, 2009, 08:52:55 AM

I first off thought that a Mamiya 6 was the way to go, but they're not exactly easy to find and I've read all this business about needing to get the lenses calibrated to the body or it can all go horribly wrong. Which sort of frightened me.
...
He suggested a Hassleblad 500 c/m (i think), starting at about 650 pounds, which is at the top of my budget (or Mrs Wildberry's budget, which is sort of the same thing!)

I'm a Mamiya 6 user, and haven't had to get anything calibrated... That said, there are apparently issues now with locating spare parts - particularly for the winder mechanism - so in the long term it's a bit dodgy. I've had mine serviced a few times to stave off any unfixable problems, especially in the past few years when I've used it for jobs and been running hundreds of rolls through it. It's still the absolute best option for an ultra-light, quick, hand-holdable MF system though, and the lenses are spectacular (even if there are only a few available!).

If you might want to do close-up work, or use long lenses, then a Hassy is your best bet. If you shop around you can get a basic 500cm / A12 back / 80mm lens kit for around 300 quid (Aperture are mad expensive) ... but additional lenses tend to be very expensive. Hassies are tough and ubiquitous though, so you should always be able to repair and replace any components - and the system is modular so you can do pretty much any photographic task with it...

Karl · « **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2009, 02:03:27 PM »

I have a Rolleiflex T and a Mamiya C220 for a few years now, both of which are fantastic. The C220 with 80mm lens is very sharp and you will get a lot for your money by either going for a C220 or C330 and some lenses (if you really want interchangeable lenses). They are quite bulky though and the operation is not as intuitive as on...

The Rolleiflex which is my favourite, a real shooters camera, and used much much more frequently. The 80mm lens quality is wonderful for both BW and colour and it is very compact, light and easy to use. For your money you could get a 2.8 model with a Planar lens which is meant to be even better and probably have change for a user type T or Rolleicord. The limitation is a fixed lens but it rarely bothers me. No batteries, completely dependable, always ready for use. Lots of filters etc available on ebay.

As with all things it depends on what you want to use it for. Interchangeable lenses will offer you flexibility. With the exception of toy cameras I can't honestly tell what camera someone used when I look at a picture. Oh, and if you plan to use it mainly indoors for still lives/portaits etc then the later Mamiya RB or RZ series are stupendous. I had to sell mine to pay for my partner's 4oth Bithday but never mind...comme ci comme ca

gothamtomato · « **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2009, 02:27:53 PM »

I have 2 Hasselblads and I love them.

My first, a 500CM, I got years ago. I bought it (new) back when Hasselblad used to have great rebate specials. So I go an extra back for free. A couple of years later I bought a macro lens (also when they were having a rebate special, and got another back free.) You used to be able to wait for those annual rebate deals and build a system at a deep discount.

A couple of years ago I added a 503CW (a GREAT deal on a demo I couldn't resist), and that has changed my life because of the winder. With the winder, you can hand hold it just like you hand hold a 35, so you don't have to be on a tripod. It's great having the option of being more mobile.

The 500CM, as much as I love it, I've never been able to hand hold because of the awkwardness of the way you have to do it. I can only use it on a tripod.

I'd also love to have a Mamiya 6, but cannot afford one. It's a someday thing. And I've also heard the same thing about the lenses. But I also know someone who has one & he loves it. He can just carry it around in his jacket pocket, so can always have it with him. That is the reason I'd love to have one. I'd love something light enough to always carry.

So many people are getting rid of their film cameras that you can get great deals on used cameras, but you do have to be careful. From my experience, there are many shops where the condition is not as advertised for used equipment. One place that has a great reputation is KEH (www.keh.com). I haven't used them, but I've heard only good things about them.

Stu · « **Reply #8 on:** March 13, 2009, 02:52:19 PM »

I know what I'd get if credit wasn't being crunched...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=140307250885&Category=710

Andrea. · « **Reply #9 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:06:06 PM »

Quote from: Stu on March 13, 2009, 02:52:19 PM

I know what I'd get if credit wasn't being crunched...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=140307250885&Category=710

MMMMmmmm

choppert · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:09:24 PM »

Ffordes.com up near Inverness are a good shop to use to, well, if you are in Great Britain

Chops

Francois · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:46:59 PM »

The thing with Bronicas is that some earlier models were unreliable. Particularly the S-S2-S2A series. Some S2's are good, others are not. Thing is some were re-badged S's while some S2's became S2A's... A lot of model name mixup in that series

This is the ultimate Bronica page at Medium Format

The key to finding a good one is to carry a list of serial numbers in your pocket while shopping...

CarlRadford · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2009, 05:14:20 PM »

SL66 is a fine bit of kit too!

Nigel · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2009, 06:52:08 PM »

Thank you everyone for such a fantastic range of advice and suggestions. There are some manufacturers there I'd never heard of, never mind some of the models! I think I need to sit down and work through that lot. To be honest the research and decision making is almost as good as actually getting the camera.

If anyone else has some suggestions to chip in please do so.

thanks again
Nigel

Sandeha Lynch · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2009, 08:40:12 PM »

A friend recently bought a brand new Mamiya RB67 ProSD kit from Ffordes. A real beauty, and who'd'a'thought this was still available new. But t'is, and they still have one in stock.

I've given up on interchangeable lens systems ... I just can't be *rsed any more. A good 80mm or 75 suits me fine, but for variety I use both a rangefinder and a TLR.

Enjoy your pondering !!

Francois · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:26:05 PM »

Be aware that some models are real monsters (huge). The Mamiya RB67 can't be comfortably hand held without a monopod. And the C220/C330 TLR's are humongous.
The Pentax67 has quite a mirror slap.

The Medfmt site I sent you to has quite a bit of info on cameras.
They even have a good review page.

Some cameras use bellows for focusing... a weak point which is definitely to consider.

gothamtomato · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2009, 09:46:24 PM »

Quote from: Francois on March 13, 2009, 09:26:05 PM

Be aware that some models are real monsters (huge). The Mamiya RB67 can't be comfortably hand held without a monopod.

Years ago I was looking at getting an RZ67, but fortunately I rented it first. It was so freakin heavy I needed a tripod. I've seen Annie Liebovitz shooting with an RZ67, hand holding it easily. She must be a weightlifting Amazon to handle it the way she does.

I love that 6x7 negative, and I love the way the back rotates between horizontal and vertical, but it was just too heavy for me.

If you're looking for 6x7 size, the Mamiya 7 rangefinder looks great. Compact and much lighter.

Skorj · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2009, 01:14:50 AM »

I drive a damn sexy Yashicamat 124 when not Polaroiding (fixed lens though):

More info here: Yashicamat 124G Review.

Nigel · « **Reply #18 on:** March 14, 2009, 09:16:55 AM »

Mmm, now that Yashica is lovely!

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2009, 11:22:21 AM »

Bronicas all the way with me these days. I started with a Kiev-60 which was excellent for trying stuff out and the lenses are awesomely cheap for what they are (same goes for the Kiev-88 range...same lenses), but you get reliability issues etc. For me tho, mine was great and I only sold it to buy a Bronica. In the meantime I'd also bought a Great Wall which is probably the next logical step up the ladder from a Holga (Bronnys, Blads etc. are several steps up several other ladders compared to Holgas!). Great Walls are awesome. Lots of people here use them and they are light and small.

I currently own 3 Bronnys. The ETRS is going on evilBay soon, but I'm keeping the S2A and the SQA. Love 'em both.

Bear in mind however, that most of the other people who have commented in this thread do actually know what they're talking about whereas I'm all about 'ballpark photography' and generally not having a clue. Keen as mustard though

Bronnys in my mind are hard to beat simply because of the price. My SQA was GBP140 in excellent nick w/ an 80mm lens and I recently picked up a 150mm portrait lens for GBP69. Seriously, can those prices be beaten by any other decent MF SLR?

(Also, Leon uses a Bronica, so I get to ask him for tips on how to use it etc.)

gothamtomato · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2009, 11:58:51 AM »

Quote from: ed.wenn on March 14, 2009, 11:22:21 AM

In the meantime I'd also bought a Great Wall which is probably the next logical step up the ladder from a Holga (Bronnys, Blads etc. are several steps up several other ladders compared to Holgas!). Great Walls are awesome. Lots of people here use them and they are light and small.

What is a Great Wall?? I've never heard of them before.

LT · « **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2009, 12:35:36 PM »

Quote from: gothamtomato on March 14, 2009, 11:58:51 AM

What is a Great Wall?? I've never heard of them before.

Sean has a very informative blog entry about great wall cameras. Google "great wall camera" and you'll find it.

Diane Peterson · « **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2009, 02:22:11 PM »

Quote

Bear in mind however, that most of the other people who have commented in this thread do actually know what they're talking about whereas I'm all about 'ballpark photography' and generally not having a clue.

I may fall into this category also( not having a clue!)..however..I have a yashica mat 124 G, Mamiya C330, Rolleiflex ...( which is from the 50's but I had it CLA'd by Harry in manhatten Beach Ca. and it really and truly works like new(like I am an expert)..and a pentacon six...all of these are terrific..the Mamiya C330 takes wonderful shots but it is heavy...I think I just like collecting cameras..not a bad thing..

tinm@n · « **Reply #23 on:** March 14, 2009, 04:39:08 PM »

Hasselblad 500 c/m is tops for me but I also have a Pentax67, Mamiya 645 and an Agfa Isolette with Solinar lens which is superb.

Oh and a Pentacon 6 which is also fantastic, though it can be a bit fiddly.

gregor · « **Reply #24 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:08:42 PM »

it really depends on what your planning to shoot and if you want a carry around camera or one that is for dedicated shoots.

For carry around cameras the Folders and Mamiya 6 or 7 are great (including those andrea pointed out and the Mamiya Six (a RF folder that is not to be confused with the Mamiya 6!).

A Zeiss Super Ikonta is a great camera, although pretty heavy for a smallish Folder.

Otherwise, I'm all for the Bronica SQ-A. Fabulous camera and get a polaroid back too !

Ed Wenn · « **Reply #25 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:26:52 PM »

Quote from: gregor on March 14, 2009, 07:08:42 PM

Otherwise, I'm all for the Bronica SQ-A. Fabulous camera and get a polaroid back too !

...I already did this on Gregor's recommendation and haven't regretted it for one second. I've had the Pola back on my SQ-A for so long now that the last time I loaded some roll film I forgot how to switch the camera back into auto film mode for frame advancement. I resolved this dilemma by putting the pola back on again.

Nigel · « **Reply #26 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:30:47 PM »

Thanks again everyone, I'm blown away by the response and the amount of knowledge out there. I'm gradually googling all the suggestions. At the moment I'm leaning towards a Rolleiflex or a Bronica SQ-A.

For those who were asking all the shooting is outdoors handheld as well as on the tripod, so I really want something that isn't too heavy.

Nigel

Francois · « **Reply #27 on:** March 14, 2009, 09:29:30 PM »

The Rolleiflex is a sweet piece of hardware. Super quiet and very light.
The Bronica is another sweet piece of hardware. Heavier and bigger but also SLR...

Two different cameras with equally high potential.

Juliet · « **Reply #28 on:** March 14, 2009, 09:55:45 PM »

Everyone will have a fav...I bought myself a Hassie 500 c/m off eBay a year ago. I paid $500.00 for the body, 80mm lens, one roll film back and the right angle viewer. It was in great condition. I did also find a Hassie repair person that I can ship it to if anything goes wrong, or just for mantanence. That will be costly though. I do find it cumbersome for my smallish female hands to figure out a comfortable way to hold it. But I love it so far.