Filmwasters
Which Board? => Main Forum => Topic started by: Indofunk on August 20, 2014, 04:54:44 PM
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After a couple of weeks of putting it off due to sheer fright, I think I'm ready to start to perhaps consider maybe fixing my Minolta HiMatic 7's stuck shutter :) Being the child of the internet that I am, I Google'd the problem and found a whole bunch of useful articles on it, like this one (http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00Y1Jj), this APUG thread (http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-100214.html), and particularly this article with photos (http://geocities.ws/zzhuy/hiMatic9/shutterCleaning.html). However, they all start with "remove the front element" before going into detail about everything else. But how do I remove that first part, the shutter ring, aperture ring, and I guess the front glass? After staring at the lens despondently, I happened to see that there's a ring that looks curiously like a retaining ring, and it has 2 slots which are 180o from each other. Almost like if I had a slotted-head screwdriver that is exactly the width of the retaining ring I could unscrew it. Is that the key? Do I need such a tool? Basically, how do I get that first piece off so I can go about completely destroying the damn camera? :)
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What you need, ideally, is an adjustable slotted spanner to undo that ring (and probably some other ones). You can improvise in a number of ways, however: a set of needlenose pliers can be sacrificed - grinding down the tips to flat points with a Dremel will give you a similar, but less precise tool (be careful applying too much torque, as it can slip); a steel paint scraper can be used as well - clearancing the center to avoid accidental contact with the front element is recommended, and obviously you'll only be able to use it for a certain ring size.
A drop or two of Ronsonol in the threads is a good idea as well. Once the ring is out it looks like the rest come apart pretty easily.
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Thanks, I figured there's an adjustable tool out there that I could use on all of my cameras regardless of diameter. I'll invest in one. It'll be my typical "$1 to buy the broken item, $100 to fix it" MO :)
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With adjustable Spanner wrenches you get what you pay for. I went cheap and regretted it. Not something you want to have problems with when your working right next to your lens.
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Would something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-TWM-08-Pocket-Adjustable-Wrench/dp/B002MJHGN6/ref=sr_1_48?ie=UTF8&qid=1408560969&sr=8-48&keywords=adjustable+spanner) work? I'm having trouble finding something that is obviously "right" for this job. I'm mostly worried that the 2mm width on these jaws is not thin enough.
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I wouldn't use that one, it doesn't have a way to lock the prongs in place, they will slip. This is the one I have and I don't recommend it but it is useable:
http://www.amazon.com/Spanner-Wrench-Pointed-Imported-SPP/dp/B00009UTWW/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408562078&sr=1-7&keywords=lens+spanner+wrench (http://www.amazon.com/Spanner-Wrench-Pointed-Imported-SPP/dp/B00009UTWW/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408562078&sr=1-7&keywords=lens+spanner+wrench)
I have not used this one but it looks more stable than mine:
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Spanner-Wrenches-lens-repairing/dp/B00MOCESCS/ref=sr_1_33?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408562079&sr=1-33&keywords=lens+spanner+wrench (http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Spanner-Wrenches-lens-repairing/dp/B00MOCESCS/ref=sr_1_33?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408562079&sr=1-33&keywords=lens+spanner+wrench)
Search with "Lens Spanner Wrench" and you should find a lot of options.
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Ah, "lens" spanner gives me the correct results, thanks!
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I know Microtools usually sell quality tools at a decent price.
http://www.micro-tools.com/store/~/C-SPN/Spanner-WrenchsLens-Tools.aspx (http://www.micro-tools.com/store/~/C-SPN/Spanner-WrenchsLens-Tools.aspx)
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I recommend a lens spanner tool that has an assortment of tips. Especially look for the pointy ones that look sort of bent inwards. Those will get rewind knob retention screws loose. For the lens retaining rings you want the tips that look like small screw drivers.
You can find them cheaper than this, but this is the one I have and it works well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Tips-Spanner-Wrench-For-Camera-DSLR-DC-Lens-Repair-Repairing-Opening-Tool-/170889381416 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Tips-Spanner-Wrench-For-Camera-DSLR-DC-Lens-Repair-Repairing-Opening-Tool-/170889381416)
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I like that this one has multiple tips http://www.amazon.com/Spanner-Wrench-Camera-Repair-Repairing/dp/B00J0PNYJ0/ref=sr_1_13?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408564598&sr=1-13 (http://www.amazon.com/Spanner-Wrench-Camera-Repair-Repairing/dp/B00J0PNYJ0/ref=sr_1_13?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408564598&sr=1-13)
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Haha James & I replied the same thing at the same time. Great minds, etc :)
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I just checked Anchor Optics (they're with Edmund Scientific) and they have this
http://www.anchoroptics.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=344 (http://www.anchoroptics.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=344)
When you shop, check that the spanner can accommodate a large enough diameter. I know this one does.
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For lens rings I prefer the horizontal type wrenches. I find they are easier to control and less likely to slip. I have this one.
http://www.micro-tools.com/store/P-SP1/Spanner-Wrench-Lens-Ring-Tool.aspx (http://www.micro-tools.com/store/P-SP1/Spanner-Wrench-Lens-Ring-Tool.aspx)
You'll probably need these as well.
http://www.micro-tools.com/store/P-SP1B/Spanner-Wrench-Sp1-30mm-Tips.aspx (http://www.micro-tools.com/store/P-SP1B/Spanner-Wrench-Sp1-30mm-Tips.aspx)
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oops! Too late, I already ordered the one James posted :)
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The one Peter posted from Microtools has been on backorder for at least 4 or 5 months. I have used the one you ordered quite a bit and it works fine. Getting it adjusted precisely is a little fiddly, but once you get that, all is well. Now with those delicate little threads on the front element I found that I had to do a VERY good job of cleaning off all of the old grease. Just soaking in solvent won't do it. Use something like an old toothbrush and a microfiber cloth and then wipe it down with a white paper towel. Keep doing this until the paper towel looks clean after wiping. Then a tiny bit (tip of a toothpick) of lithium grease will get those threads turning real smooth.
Good luck!
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The one Peter posted from Microtools has been on backorder for at least 4 or 5 months.
It appears to be in stock at Micro Tools Europe which is where I got mine from. It's at http://www.micro-tools.de/en/Shutter-Spanner-Wrenches/Spanner-Wrench-Lens-Ring-Tool.html (http://www.micro-tools.de/en/Shutter-Spanner-Wrenches/Spanner-Wrench-Lens-Ring-Tool.html)
Just in case any readers this side of the pond are also looking.
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I've acquired three spanner wrenches over the years: the "economy" model with the black finish and brass locking knobs, the one with the single rectangular bar in the middle and the one that Micro-Tools Europe calls Article T-132. The first two I hardly ever use; the economy model is badly engineered and only useful for very crude parts. The single-bar design is a bit too sloppy for my taste--it tends to slip a lot and the risk of scratching a lens makes me reluctant to use it. The third one (which unfortunately doesn't appear in Micro-Tools' US catalogue any longer) is both solid and precise. And, of course, the most expensive of the three....
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UPDATE: I finally took the entire damn lens assembly apart and successfully got the shutter to close! But now it does nothing else :-\ Could you fine people read all about my trials and tribulations and help me get this damn shutter working? I feel like I'm thiiiiis close to fixing it for good.
Here's my unpublished blog post on it: http://www.indofunkstudios.com/2014/09/23/minolta-hi-matic-7s-shutter-repair/ (http://www.indofunkstudios.com/2014/09/23/minolta-hi-matic-7s-shutter-repair/)
Here's the relevant portion:
So I took a toothpick and idly poked at the shutter blades and voila! Suddenly the shutter closed! Actually what happened was that they closed halfway and I saw a whole lot of dried grease on them, then they closed entirely before I could get at the grease. So I know there’s nasty grease in the middle of those blades, but again no way to get at it :( At least I was able to clean the parts of the shutter blades that I can see now. Some naphtha on a Q-Tip (in retrospect not the best idea, since it left some fibers on the blades that I pretty much removed, but there might be one or two that will come back to haunt me later).
So now the next step is to slowly open and close the shutter to clean the whole blades, right? So I depress the shutter button and … nothing. It’s like I’m just pressing a random rod that is connected to absolutely nothing. There’s no “click”, no need to advance the film lever, nothing. I can just press and press forever and nothing happens. A few gears move near the lens, but they don’t do jack. I thought that maybe the self-timer was engaged and stuck, so I turned all the self-timer gears. In both directions. Like 100 turns each direction. Nothing. So either that’s not the problem, or I succeeded in breaking it even further :D
I tried popping off the bottom just to look, but that’s doing nothing either. Or, very little. I need to take a different picture, but imagine that third gear from the left turned about 90 degrees clockwise from where it is now, so that the second gear from the left catches it two clicks after that big gap. Then the gap is filled by another gear above it, which prevents the film from being advanced. I assume this is the cocked position. But two weird things happen now. One is the shutter button doing nothing, as I described above. The second is that the system holding the gear in that gap, which prevents the film from being advanced, is not held in place so it just pops right out of that gap and I can advance film to my heart’s content and press the shutter button whenever I want. So I’m thinking that *might* be related.
Halp?
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Satish,
I couldn't get the link to work so I can't see the pictures. But did you try soaking the whole shutter in solvent and blowing it clean? This is usually step one in any shutter repair, and often needs multiple doses to do any good. But I've had a couple that needed nothing more than this. That said, the lack of any resistance when you press the release is worrying.
Terry
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Satish,
I couldn't get the link to work so I can't see the pictures. But did you try soaking the whole shutter in solvent and blowing it clean? This is usually step one in any shutter repair, and often needs multiple doses to do any good. But I've had a couple that needed nothing more than this. That said, the lack of any resistance when you press the release is worrying.
Terry
Oops, I guess I have to make it public for you to see. Should work now.
I didn't want to douse the thing in naphtha, so I just used a little on the QTip, enough to clean the visible parts. I'll try dumping the whole bottle on tonight :P Just kidding. I'll add some more naphtha then. But yeah, the shutter button does absolutely nothing :(
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I do actually mean dunking it in a dish full of solvent. I've never done this to a shutter with electronic components though; you might want to do some tests to see that it doesn't melt insulation on the wires. If the naphtha does, though, you could try isopropyl. I can't tell for certain from the pics, but I'm assuming that all the glass has been removed. Solvents will do wicked things to lens coatings.
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I just cleaned a Graphex shutter with Ronsonol but I didn't dunk it I just squirted it in where I thought it was needed and let it run out the other end of the shutter. It seems as though it worked quite well. I would hesitate to dunk an entire camera especially if there is still a lens element installed as the pictures show. Most of what I have read about doing the dunk they recommend removing the lens. It may damage the coating. It could also dissolve glue and cause other problems.
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I had a close read of that article and I think there are some problems with it. The guy assumes that a stuck shutter is gunk on the blades, but it can equally be gunk in the gears. So you should flush them out as well. And I was trying to see the linkage from the shutter release button to the shutter itself; is it that silver fork thing down there by the red wires? And does that connect to the ring with the gear teeth and the arm that you had to lift out of the way to get at the guts of the shutter? Because that might be your actuating mechanism....
Also, is it possible to separate the shutter from the rear elements of the lens (or, indeed, the camera body)? That would make life easier. Often you can do this by removing a retaining ring from inside the camera body.
I found this:
http://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php?page=seikosha&WEBMGR=f4b1822371e822285be0d5e4d5bfdf2a (http://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php?page=seikosha&WEBMGR=f4b1822371e822285be0d5e4d5bfdf2a)
it's supposed to be the same type of shutter as yours. That geared ring seems to be the cocking mechanism.
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Yes, I was trying to avoid actually removing the shutter blades, but that should be possible by removing that last brass ring (oddly, I don't have a screwdriver thin enough to fit the screwheads on that ring :-\ ).
Regarding actuation, all I can really tell is that when I press the shutter button, that slotted lever at the top right (about 1 o'clock) moves counterclockwise and hits the lever to the left of it, and then ... very little happens.
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I should take a video of the front and the bottom while pressing the shutter and advancing, respectively.
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I think I figured out the mechanism. That fork at the bottom near the red wire engages with the arm sticking out of the geared ring (that you lifted out of the way) and cocks the shutter. (Try the advance knob and see if that fork moves.) When the shutter is cocked, that piece at the top (just left of the fork at 1:00 that moves when you trip the shutter release button) that is three arms of different lengths, rotates clockwise, so that when you hit the release button, the fork pushes it CCW and trips the shutter. Does that make sense? (I.e., the shutter isn't firing now because it isn't cocked.)
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Crikey! I think you're right! So if I put that geared ring back on the shutter should fire? That's the first thing I'm going to try tonight :D Thanks!
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oh, I guess the proper phrase would be "by Jove, I think you've got it!" ;D
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As I'm eyeball-deep in new students I cannot devote my three remaining brain cells to figuring out the mechanics of an unfamiliar shutter, but I think Terry's on to it. In many leaf shutters that main ring acts as a cam to cock the shutter, and if it's not in place the shutter's not going to work,
What I can suggest is (once you get the shutter blades moving), rather than going straight to the nuclear option of total immersion shutter baptism, applying Ronsonol to the shutter blades generously, then shake on a little powdered graphite and work the shutter several times. Clean with Q-tips, blow off, and see where you are. If it's not right do it again. The solvent helps to carry the graphite into the blade pivots and may help you avoid full disassembly. Obviously, if the problem lies elsewhere you'll have to address it, but the shutter blades are the most likely culprit in my experience.
Also, I should note that I've use Ronsonol to clean lenses - yes, the glass - on numerous occasions with no ill effects. I'm not saying there aren't coatings out there that might dissolve immediately, but so far I haven't encountered them.
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The title of this thread has reached the "irony" tipping point.
I agree with the graphite "lubricant". I have cleaned with Ronsol and then just scribbled with a pencil on the closed blades, then actuated the shutter a bunch of times. It really takes a microscopic amount of graphite to coat those blades.
Good luck!
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Ok, progress!!
I tried just putting that ring on, and nothing really noticeable happened. Definitely no cocking going on. So I proceeded to put back layer after layer and trying to cock and shoot each time, and FINALLY when I got almost 100% assembled, with the shutter ring and aperture rings back on, just like photo #1 on my blog page, viola*! I heard the timing assembly move when I advanced the film, and I heard it wind down when I pressed the shutter! I say "heard" because the shutter blades did not move a nanometer. So my next step is to pull all the layers off again and drench the f**ker in naphtha and see if that helps. Hopefully it's simply a matter of sticky shutter blades and not elsewhere, because I'm pretty much ready to give up ;D
* I know that's spelled wrong. I'm a musician.
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And even more progress!
I took Terry's suggestion and threw caution to the wind and gave those damn shutter blades a true naphtha bath, proportions of which they have never before seen. In addition, and this may have been the key, I blew canned air into it. The canned air forced the naphtha into where the blades overlap, and after doing this I was actually able to open the shutter blades with a toothpick! (Did I mention that I couldn't move them before? I couldn't move them before.) They still won't open when I trip the shutter, but that's because they really don't want to move even when I force them with a toothpick. These are some rather obstinate shutter blades here >:(
So next step! Graphite! Where can I get some?
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and then just scribbled with a pencil on the closed blades
Wait, really? This works?
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Sure; graphite is graphite. I suppose softer is better--a nice sketching pencil....
I expect you might find it at a hardware store in powder form. Maybe locksmiths would use it...?
Come to think of it, all you need is a pencil and an emery board or fine sandpaper. You could make your own powder!
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Pencil lead has clay in it to bind the graphite. I don't know if it is enough to matter. I thing the harder pencils have more clay
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I'm gonna visit a hardware store today just in case. If they don't have graphite, then it's pencil & sandpaper time!
"Pencil and sandpaper" sounds like some sort of artistic medium. I would think you'd go through pencils really quickly though.
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If you don't find graphite at the hardware store, stop by an art store and get a soft (#8B or #9B) pencil. Can't be much clay in those. Bonus is that they are nice for signing prints too!
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Ace Hardware stocks it. It's called "Mr Zip". Gotta buy some just because of the name.
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I'm going to the locally-owned place near where I work. Not that I'm against the big-box stores (well, not that much), but there are so many small local places in NYC that I might as well support them.
I'll look for Mr. Zip.
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With you on the locally-owned front; I just went to the Ace website to see if they had that sort of stuff. It does seem to be stocked for use by locksmiths, so you might find it in that department.
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AND THE SAGA CONTINUES
I bought the graphite and dropped the smallest amount onto the shutter blades, dropped some ronsonol on it, swished it around a bit, blew it all over the place with canned air, wiped it off, worked the shutter blades, wiped them with the ronsonol/graphite qtip, dried it off, and now the shutter blades move a bit better. BUT, here's the most important thing I discovered ... that ring that Terry pointed out before? I didn't realize that it needed to engage this specific gear on the right side which actuates the shutter! But now I know that! and now I can manually fire the shutter! BUT but, when I cock the shutter and press the shutter button, the whole mess gets stuck halfway. If I just push it a little (the ring), it finishes the process and fires the shutter.
SO. Is there some other gear or gears somewhere that need the ronsonol treatment? And if so, WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY??
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I'm guessing it's just still binding. Repeat the graphite/Ronsonol treatment a couple more times, making sure you rub the graphite into the blades and use enough Ronsonol to flush the hidden areas of the mechanism. Blow it out thoroughly and leave it to dry for a day or so, then try again. It's amazing how little crud will bind up a shutter.
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I'm hoping that's it :) (mostly because I don't want to have to deal with any more deeper repairs ;) ) Will do and report back.
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Ok, repeated the ronsonol/graphite thing a bunch of times. Yes, the shutter blades are getting a LOT easier to move now with a toothpick. Still won't fire without manual help. But one more thing I noticed that I forgot to mention in my penultimate post, is that yes the ring/shutter/firing mechanism needs some manual help after tripping the shutter button, but also nothing happens right after I press the shutter button. So my steps right now are: cock, press shutter button, force ring to even start moving, it moves about 1/4 way, force it to move the rest of the way and the shutter fires.
I'm going through a LOT of ronsonol here :D
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Did you lube the ring itself? A very thin layer (you shouldn't be able to see it, just feel it) of molybdenum grease is my standard prescription for the main speed ring on leaf shutters. I also apply a tiny drop of lightweight oil (I use Breakfree CLP, a firearm lubricant) to the posts on which levers and gears ride.
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Ooh, the phrase "molybdenum grease" is getting me hot under the collar here :o
I will definitely try all of that (I think I can use rotary valve linkage oil in place of your Breakfree CLP oil, as it's a super super light oil), BUT I think there's something more mechanical going on here. Especially the first step of forcing the ring to move seems like there's some gear or something that's not moving. There's nearly a "click" as if I've moved past some barrier. I'm not at all discounting the possibility that I may have neglected to engage yet another gear that I should have engaged, and my disassembly photos are not nearly detailed enough to show what it may be.
Two words: Swiss watch :P
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I'm with 02 on this one. Ir's almost certainly a tiny bit of grit in the shutter or the gears. Shutters require much patience!
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Just a stupid question: are any of the gears missing teeth?
A stripped gear will lock-up a mechanism pretty good...
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Just a stupid question: are any of the gears missing teeth?
A stripped gear will lock-up a mechanism pretty good...
I'll look for that. Nothing obvious that I can remember. Also, I can only see a small percentage of the gears without getting deeper into the guts :)
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I'm not sending my Leicas to you for a CLA
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I'm not sending my Leicas to you for a CLA
;D why not? For you, special deal! I'll only lose 6 screws!
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I'm not sending my Leicas to you for a CLA
;D why not? For you, special deal! I'll only lose 6 screws!
I'll send my Zorki 4:D
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The entertainment value of this thread is great. Will it end with pictures from the Hi-matic 7 or pictures of the Hi-matic 7 in the dumpster. Stay tuned for the dramatic conclusion. ;D
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I think it will end in tears
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OK, I looked at the photos again and have a little better concept of how that shutter works. The first plate you removed controls the speed. The ring cocks the shutter. The slow speed escapement and the self-timer constitute most of the gears you see in there - they are not the problem, as they are not in play here. If you don't have the speed selector plate in place, do that first; at least then you have some idea what to expect from the shutter when you fire it, and it may even serve to position something else relevant to the basic operation of the shutter. Make sure it sits flush (in Compur shutters it's possible to end up with it off-kilter resting on the B lever if you don't set it down in the right spot) and in the correct orientation.
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I think it will end in tears
I'm afraid Gary may be correct here :'(
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OK, I looked at the photos again and have a little better concept of how that shutter works. The first plate you removed controls the speed. The ring cocks the shutter. The slow speed escapement and the self-timer constitute most of the gears you see in there - they are not the problem, as they are not in play here. If you don't have the speed selector plate in place, do that first; at least then you have some idea what to expect from the shutter when you fire it, and it may even serve to position something else relevant to the basic operation of the shutter. Make sure it sits flush (in Compur shutters it's possible to end up with it off-kilter resting on the B lever if you don't set it down in the right spot) and in the correct orientation.
Preeeetty sure I got most of that sorted. When I was doing my recent tests, it was with the plate on (as well as the aperture and shutter speed rings). The one odd thing was that I noticed the aperture lever doesn't actually extend past that first plate, which doesn't seem right. I thought I had it akilter, but I looked carefully and it looks pretty damn straight. I'll check that out again.
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Well, I have the feeling that Leicas were actually made with repairs in mind... not so for Minoltas which can be some of the most sophisticated mechanical and electronic contraptions someone can think of.
I once repaired a Minolta AF-C which wouldn't trigger even with good batteries. I had the top opened and just couldn't find what the heck was wrong with it.
At some point, I decided to also open the bottom to see what was there. And what was there was the problem. The shutter button was attached to a long pushrod that went all the way to the bottom to trigger the shutter. All that was wrong is that there was a small catch that didn't grab the lever. I triggered it by hand when I re-hooked it and the camera has worked ever since...
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The shutter button was attached to a long pushrod that went all the way to the bottom to trigger the shutter.
Hey, my HiMatic has that long rod too! But it seems to serve no purpose whatsoever. It is "D" shaped, so that it will clear a small gear and not hit it. Could that be a vestige of the AF-C technology that they just decided not to remove?
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If it's there it has a reason to be there. Could that be your firing problem?
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The shutter button was attached to a long pushrod that went all the way to the bottom to trigger the shutter.
Hey, my HiMatic has that long rod too! But it seems to serve no purpose whatsoever. It is "D" shaped, so that it will clear a small gear and not hit it. Could that be a vestige of the AF-C technology that they just decided not to remove?
The AF-C is more recent than the HiMatic, so the rod is there for a reason.
I found through my slim minolta repair knowledge that they tend to have stuff on top that hooks up to drive shafts to activate stuff on the bottom. That's the way they managed to make things more compact. It also makes it so that you really need to follow things closely to figure out how the darn thing works.