Filmwasters
Which Board? => Main Forum => : charles binns February 28, 2015, 10:09:22 AM
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Well, probably not kittens but...
I came across this this rather interesting article whilst researching the Contax G2 during my Friday lunch hour (time was when I would have been in the pub). The article is well worth reading but having finished it I scrolled down to the comments......I don't want to offend any vegetarians but I think that calling film photography cruel to animals is abit much. Still it gave me abit of a giggle - especially the comment by a "meet" (sic) eater.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/02/21/the-contax-g2-travel-companion-by-ibraar-hussain/ (http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/02/21/the-contax-g2-travel-companion-by-ibraar-hussain/)
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I need to buy more film.
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Wow, that was an edifying discussion :)
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That's why you don't read the bottom half of the Internet, still it did remind me to finish my order with Maco, I wonder how many kittens are needed to make 64 rolls of film?
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I understand his point; although it's a bit like changing a washer to save water and then leaving the tap running so many things use byproducts that to be a real vegan you need to spend all your time researching not just the products that contain meat and byproducts but also the companies that make any product have no links to animal exploitation.
Film uses animal byproducts but then so do some medical treatments, to just go for the low hanging fruit is to risk being a hypocrite.
I eat meat, wear leather and use film those are all choices just like some drive cars use ionic surfactants and other nasties, what I don't like is others who will tell me how evil I am based on their values-which I don't share.
I'm going off to shoot some boiled cow bone smeared on plastic..
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I wonder if he uses bone dust as a ecological fertilizer in his garden?
I also wonder if he takes his medicine in gel caps... or if he buys acetaminophen in pill form.
One contains gelatin, the other contains lactose...
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So I should stop working on a formula for "Kittenol"? (Probably just as well; the fur was leaving marks on the negs....)
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The thing that gets me about stuff like this is when people post this on the internet.
Their phone or computer may be built in sweatshops by overworked underpaid staff. They may use lots of components and 'conflict materials' (i.e. tantalum capacitors) from dodgy places and the production of which generates pollution.
Then their computer, and their internet connection, and every other internet connection and server along the way runs off power which might be generated from fossil fuels and increase climate change...
Somehow, that's all OK, but the odd roll of film is bad....?
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I am a veggie, and a Filmwaster, so I guess that makes me a hypocrite. But, what about all the chemical waste that occurs in the manufacturing of components for digital cameras that need replacing every 2 years because of obsolescence, and the damage that is doing to wildlife and nature? And let's face it, gelatine is a by-product of other industries and is not the reason for animal husbandry and slaughter in the first place. Making good use of a bad situation I'd say.
Well, that's my conscience clear then ;)
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I heard on YouTube (was it the blog brothers or smarter everyday... I can't remember) that in the production of chips they use an acid that is so caustic that the scientists know absolutely nothing about it. The stuff eats through glass, metal, rock, most plastics... And yet it's used everyday to clean the silicon wafers and etch them. That can't possibly be good for the environment!
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Some of the most dangerous chemicals I've worked with were from the production of microchips. It was a site near Silicone Valley where someone dumped compressed gas cylinders of Silane and Arsine among other toxic gases.
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I'm allergic to kittens. Have at it. ;)
If you're seriously considering adding a Contax to your kit - I once had a G1, G2 and most of the lenses - I would suggest researching repair centers in your area first. The Gs were easily the best cameras I've owned and are quite reliable but after having them 'repaired' by the only available service center in the US I ended up selling the lot out of frustration. If you have a reliable service center though I can't recommend these wonderful rangefinders enough. They feel good, sound good, look cool and have wonderful lenses.
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I'm allergic to kittens. Have at it. ;)
If you're seriously considering adding a Contax to your kit - I once had a G1, G2 and most of the lenses - I would suggest researching repair centers in your area first. The Gs were easily the best cameras I've owned and are quite reliable but after having them 'repaired' by the only available service center in the US I ended up selling the lot out of frustration. If you have a reliable service center though I can't recommend these wonderful rangefinders enough. They feel good, sound good, look cool and have wonderful lenses.
Thanks - I have been toying with buying a rangefinder for a while. I really want a Leica M3 or M6 and was only looking at other rangefinders for comparison. However, I need to sell my Hasselblad kit before I buy the Leica and I haven't got round to that yet. then I need to kit myself out for a holiday in Botswana later this year. And then I think, what the hell, I only ever use my holga in any case so what's the point of shelling out on an expensive toy like the M6.
And then again I quite like the look of the Xpan. I've always had a thing about panoramic cameras.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure. ???
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I'm allergic to kittens. Have at it. ;)
If you're seriously considering adding a Contax to your kit - I once had a G1, G2 and most of the lenses - I would suggest researching repair centers in your area first. The Gs were easily the best cameras I've owned and are quite reliable but after having them 'repaired' by the only available service center in the US I ended up selling the lot out of frustration. If you have a reliable service center though I can't recommend these wonderful rangefinders enough. They feel good, sound good, look cool and have wonderful lenses.
Thanks - I have been toying with buying a rangefinder for a while. I really want a Leica M3 or M6 and was only looking at other rangefinders for comparison. However, I need to sell my Hasselblad kit before I buy the Leica and I haven't got round to that yet. then I need to kit myself out for a holiday in Botswana later this year. And then I think, what the hell, I only ever use my holga in any case so what's the point of shelling out on an expensive toy like the M6.
And then again I quite like the look of the Xpan. I've always had a thing about panoramic cameras.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure. ???
Hi Charles.
I just disposed of an XPan. Great camera but has a couple of "Achilles Heels". First, the lenses are slow - and made worse when you use the centre spot filters necessary to avoid vignetting. Secondly, the version 1 (and maybe the second one as well) doesn't show shutter speed in the viewfinder. Therefore, as it's aperture priority or manual, you set the aperture and hope for the best - or tripod mount it - or have a quick look at the LCD screen and recompose - or set the shutter speed and fiddle with the aperture ring and hope the "okay" light comes on. A street-shooter's dream it is not.
If you're looking at Leica, the M3 has bright lines for 50mm, 90mm and 135mm. The M2 has 35mm, 50mm and 90mm. Apologies if you know already but it's sort of important unless you are just going for a 50mm. Apparently, it's possible to get Leica to fit an M6 style finderwhich will give you everything from 28mm to 135mm.
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Paul
Thank you. To be honest I already have a Widelux (though I was thinking of selling it) so I don't really need the Xpan. It is just a camera I've always fancied. Abit like the Mamiya 6 -but that would just get me started...
I will probably still thinking about which Leica to buy in 2020 the rate I'm going.
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As someone who has never held, shot or been in the vicinity of any Leica being used - the closest I have come is driving past the shop in Holborn, what is this lust that people seem to have for it. Is it really that good a camera (apply the adage, it's not the camera it is the person behind it!), does it instantly evelate your shots to some higher plane? Is it a case of my d**k is bigger than yours, I mean the prices of them must be down to something? I am genuinely in the dark and really don't mean to offend anyone who has/wants one, but would like to be enlightened!
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As someone who has never held, shot or been in the vicinity of any Leica being used - the closest I have come is driving past the shop in Holborn, what is this lust that people seem to have for it. Is it really that good a camera (apply the adage, it's not the camera it is the person behind it!), does it instantly evelate your shots to some higher plane? Is it a case of my d**k is bigger than yours, I mean the prices of them must be down to something? I am genuinely in the dark and really don't mean to offend anyone who has/wants one, but would like to be enlightened!
For some people it's a bit of expensive "willy-waving" but there are those of us who wanted one for years but could never afford one and then along came digital and down came the price to something affordable and we got to play with the rich kids' toys. They are seriously beautiful pieces of kit. My only gripes are that you lose some of the frame with larger lenses due to the rangefinder mechanism. The other is that the loading is a bit "Marmite". Some love it and it comes second nature. For me, an SLR style load is what I'm most used to. No big deal either way. As for dealers, RG Lewis on Holborn are a good bunch, as are all the Leica dealers I've met.
However, I'll only ever buy s/hand and I really get on with the chaps at Aperture who have cut me some really good deals. If you ever get the chance to own a Leica, it's great fun and the lenses are stellar. I'd recommend a Bessa and Leica glass ahead of a Leica body and Voigtlander glass - but that's because Im of the opinion that the lens matters bore than a light-tight box with a shutter.
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I preferred the bit where we talked about saving those fluffy kittens. Leica Schmeica.
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Going to have a go at making my own film.
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can't we combine the subjects? leica AND shooting fluffy kittens ;)
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A leica doesn't purr on your lap...
But they have the smoothest mechanics you've ever seen and their lenses are excellent.
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seriously though, I'm a veggie too and as people have noted, living a life fully after that is hard and living environmentally friendly and still reaping the benefits of modern society... yeah, good luck.
I don't eat meat because I don't want to. if I can rule animal traces out of other products like shampoo and such then that's nice but I'm not going to sit off all of my free time staying in contact with producers of anything from energy to house hold equipment.
a little man buying a fairtrade apple ain't saving the world on his own. big change is needed.
now I won't write anything more about that because I do photography because it's fun and I except it from much of that thinking so I can relax with it.
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I have a pragmatic take on it. Have a look at your teeth, and tell me we are not omnivorous. If anybody does not want to eat meat, that is another matter. They are of course welcome to (not) do so. But trying to advocate that eating meat is unnatural and cruel, I would beg to differ.
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Charles, being an owner/operator of a leica and mamiya rangefinder I really think a mamiya 6 would be great for you.
You keep the familiarity of the square format you're used to and you get the benefit of rangefinder focussing with great optics.
I find that there is a downside to switching back and forth between aspect ratios.
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No one has done that Ezzie. In fact, in the 25 years since I made the ethical choice to stop supporting the mass produced meat industry, I've never met a veggie who does claim meat is unnatural - unnessecary may be, but not abnormal . It's a choice we make. In fact the most aggressive opinions on the subject, in my experience, seem to come from overly defensive meat eaters who assume my vegetarianism is an assault on their own lifestyles. It is quite amusing really.
Long gone are the days of the Citroën 2CV drivers in vegan sandals shouting, "meat is murder" at customers in butchers shops! :)
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Did not mean to imply you were preaching Leon. But I have met more than a few who have. To be honest I could live on veg and fish, but funnily enough it is hard with two kids who are very picky when it comes to food. And I understand the views on mordern animal husbandry, it is not all pretty.
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Its okay Ezzie, I didnt feel like you did think that, and your point is sound. The 'meat is murder' brigade did create a huge hangover for more forward thinking vegetarians!
Dragging things back to the OP .... I wonder why there has never been an alternative to mammalian gelatine to hold the silver? I seem to remember the Ilford guys saying that they tried algae-based gelatine, but it just didnt work and caused all kinds of quality issues. You'd think there would be something available by now - maybe something grown in a lab rather than taken from animals? I wonder how much of it is the manufacturers not wanting to put the research in ... meat gelatine is cheap, and it works i guess.
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I went off the red meat in the late 80s, when I lived with a woman who was an ethical vegetarian. Luckily, it was in London and I learned to like Indian food about the same time; never reacquired a taste for meat. I'll eat the occasional fish or poultry dish but mainly veg. That said, I like a pair of leather shoes (it's just more durable) and I have no problem with animal gelatine in film.
What bugs me about the "meat is murder" brigade is the same thing that I dislike about the vocal advocates of digital imaging: the idea that we all have to be in lock step with them.
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Dragging things back to the OP .... I wonder why there has never been an alternative to mammalian gelatine to hold the silver? I seem to remember the Ilford guys saying that they tried algae-based gelatine, but it just didnt work and caused all kinds of quality issues. You'd think there would be something available by now - maybe something grown in a lab rather than taken from animals? I wonder how much of it is the manufacturers not wanting to put the research in ... meat gelatine is cheap, and it works i guess.
I would think that synthesizing or producing it from something like algae would be hard to compete with a free or very cheap wast product from another industry. I look at film as way of reducing waste, those kitten and cow bones would just end up in the trash if we didn't make film with it.
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...To be honest I could live on veg and fish, but funnily enough it is hard with two kids who are very picky when it comes to food...
Ezzie, Isn't that the truth! My oldest for the longest time wouldn't eat anything that wasn't cheese or nugget shaped. Though my youngest declared a couple of weeks ago that he was going vegetarian as he and a school friend stuffed their faces full of lettuce (this just after he ate enough seafood to stock an aquarium) at the end of a Lunar New Year meal. His vegetarianism lasted all of a day and a half.
Leon, I too am surprised that an alternative source of gelatin hasn't come about for film but I think you hit the nail on the head. As a by product of the meat industry, animal based gelatin is probably the most economical.
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You'd think there would be something available by now - maybe something grown in a lab rather than taken from animals? I wonder how much of it is the manufacturers not wanting to put the research in ... meat gelatine is cheap, and it works i guess.
<rant>I would imagine that "lab produced" gelatin would be oil-based or use petroleum products. Then you would have a whole new set of protesters crying foul. Short of returning to a completely agrarian society where people are too busy trying to find something to eat to protest anything, there will always be those who disagree with some aspect of something someone else is doing. Our problem truly is that technology has freed up our time and we don't know what to do with it, so we sit around thinking of ways to tell other people how or how not to spend their free time. Our need for freedom is only exceeded by our need to control others.</rant>
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Charles, being an owner/operator of a leica and mamiya rangefinder I really think a mamiya 6 would be great for you.
You keep the familiarity of the square format you're used to and you get the benefit of rangefinder focussing with great optics.
I find that there is a downside to switching back and forth between aspect ratios.
You might be right SLVR - and I've lusted after a Mamiya 6 for years. The only disadvantage I can think of is that by all accounts a Leica M6 is the best camera on the market if you want to bludgeon rare animals to death. That and the fact that Leica lenses are faster.
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I think I would choose an M3 or an M2 to bludgeon, but its common knowledge that if you want to pulverize one would use a Pentax 67.
Unless you are shooting at night I don't think that you will find the mamiya too slow. I do find it sometimes but usually when shooting indoors or during dusk/night.
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I think I would choose an M3 or an M2 to bludgeon, but its common knowledge that if you want to pulverize one would use a Pentax 67.
Unless you are shooting at night I don't think that you will find the mamiya too slow. I do find it sometimes but usually when shooting indoors or during dusk/night.
Well I've always got my Kiev 60 to fall back on. You can bludgeon a small country into submission with that thing. Seriously though, I reckon you are right about the Mamiya 6, but I'll need to sell the Hasselblad first.
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Are we allowed to talk about marshmallow cookies in this thread? Or have we exhausted that elsewhere? ;D
To be honest I already have a Widelux (though I was thinking of selling it)
Perhaps we should do this in another thread but since it was mentioned in this thread... Late Developer's views on the Xpan have sort of confirmed what I feared about those cameras so I'm curious Charles how did you find the Widelux? Did you have any issues with it?
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Are we allowed to talk about marshmallow cookies in this thread? Or have we exhausted that elsewhere? ;D
To be honest I already have a Widelux (though I was thinking of selling it)
Perhaps we should do this in another thread but since it was mentioned in this thread... Late Developer's views on the Xpan have sort of confirmed what I feared about those cameras so I'm curious Charles how did you find the Widelux? Did you have any issues with it?
I like it though I hardly use it. Nice sharp images and even exposure. The only issue I started having is banding on the negatives - the answer to that is to get the thing serviced. And maybe one day I'll get round to doing that. Other than that though, I loved it.
Here is an example or two
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You'd think there would be something available by now - maybe something grown in a lab rather than taken from animals? I wonder how much of it is the manufacturers not wanting to put the research in ... meat gelatine is cheap, and it works i guess.
<rant>I would imagine that "lab produced" gelatin would be oil-based or use petroleum products. Then you would have a whole new set of protesters crying foul. Short of returning to a completely agrarian society where people are too busy trying to find something to eat to protest anything, there will always be those who disagree with some aspect of something someone else is doing. Our problem truly is that technology has freed up our time and we don't know what to do with it, so we sit around thinking of ways to tell other people how or how not to spend their free time. Our need for freedom is only exceeded by our need to control others.</rant>
Are you ranting at me Jharr? I hope not! I can't remember ever telling anyone how to spend their free time! ;)
I was thinking more of an organically grown/ genetically constructed medium, rather than a petrochemical alternative, A bit like the lab meat and cartilage that is being grown now.
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Are you ranting at me Jharr? I hope not! I can't remember ever telling anyone how to spend their free time! ;)
I was thinking more of an organically grown/ genetically constructed medium, rather than a petrochemical alternative, A bit like the lab meat and cartilage that is being grown now.
I just rant at the ether, not anyone in particular. I don't actually expect that anyone is listening. :)
How about if we put a big "Laboratory" sign on the rendering plants? Then our gelatin could bear the label "Contains laboratory produced organic compounds." That might settle them down. The down side is that they could then charge 5x for the same product and the price of film would go up accordingly. I wouldn't matter much to me though since I generally buy expired 'meat-grade' film. :o
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Well... there used to be some papers where the silver was held in albumen.
The hens don't mind since they lay an egg a day anyways.
Maybe it would also work with some rice byproduct. I just got a tube of mounting paste made from the leftovers of the rice production and it's pretty darn sticky.
The problem with the gelatin made from salt water algae probably has to do with the amount of iodine they carry. I don't know about soft water algae though...
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only the fluffy ones eh. ;D
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Charles, those Widelux shots are wonderful.
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I have taken way too many topics OT lately, so I have been trying to keep my mouth shut ;) But I am one of those decades long vegetarians who likes leather in my shoes, eggs in my frying pan and gelatin in my film! And there are no inconsistencies here in that I try to live my life following my assorted ideals and at the same time LIVE my life. It is all cost-benefit analysis for me, especially as I am usually balancing a series of (sometimes conflicting ethical choices). I remember pissing of a vegan friend once when I mentioned that her factory-made veggie 'sausages' that flew half way across the world likely had a bigger carbon footprint than some locally raised free-range chicken. She did not find it as funny as it did! I will conclude my mini rant with a pretty cool infographic by XKCD, which I will toss in at the end of this post.
But to slightly veer back on topic, I am surprised the photo_utopia has not chimed in on this gelatin issue as he has a good blog posting (http://photo-utopia.blogspot.ca/2008_11_16_archive.html) on how specific the requirements are for gelatin. He has a great quote Kenneth Mees (a famous film emulsion expert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Mees)) as saying "If cows didn't like mustard we couldn't go to the movies" -- which refers to how gelatin varies so greatly that the product from cows that eat mustard is specifically good for film (it has sulphur in it which is a chemical benefit to the processes at work). So finding a replacement (for what is now a niche use of the material) would be rather hard as gelatin is not all the same!
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/land_mammals.png)
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I haven't chimed in because I didn't want to confirm my geek status. ;D
But...
Gelatin from animals is really the only useful colloid because it contains a labile sulpher which reacts with silver halides to boost sensitivity at least 10x.
Salts that occur naturally also encourage crystal growth (known as Ostwald ripening) which also boosts sensitivity.
So all hail Dr. Maddox we should all thank him for his support
https://adelehouston.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/dr-richard-maddox-inventor-of-the-dry-plate-process/ (https://adelehouston.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/dr-richard-maddox-inventor-of-the-dry-plate-process/)
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Cool info. Thanks. And McDuff... We went to the same school of vegetarianism is seems. Common sense prevails :)
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There's nothing more natural than killing animals and using their bodies for food, clothing and tools. This is a really interesting article on the subject of animal products and the internet, from a filmmaker who made a film about humane animal slaughter: http://nofilmschool.com/2015/02/how-i-released-controversial-sxsw-short-online (http://nofilmschool.com/2015/02/how-i-released-controversial-sxsw-short-online)
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There are many reasons why people choose to not eat meat. Not all these reasons create conflicts with other uses of animal products.
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a pretty cool infographic by XKCD
I might be reading it wrong but based on that chart we should eat more goats, right? I kid… ;D
Going back to the original post, I don’t know how gelatin production fits into the industrial farming cycle but by my reckoning it seems to me that film (and maybe marshmallow cookies) is a better use for that byproduct than dumping it.
I think as human beings there is never a moment in our lives and deaths where we do not have some negative impact on the world. So minimizing that impact, whether in your diet, in your hobbies or how we use what we produce, is a good goal to have. Clouding it with agendas and confused thinking muddies that goal.
So following that line of thinking further, about our impact on our world and what that means, I think film photography as a hobby can do its bit. Many of us are using old rehabilitated cameras & expired film rescued from the bin, we [try] to store and use our chemicals as long as possible, we share images, film & cameras with friends. We might be Filmwasters but I don’t think we are really “wasting” in the sense of wilful indifference to film.
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That's very well put, Mike! What can be more ecologically friendly than using second hand cameras? Although I am a vegetarian myself I realise that animals will always be used for food and other purposes, and knowing that it makes sense to make the most out of a natural resource. I do for example enjoy listening to baroque music played on original instruments with strings made of sheep gut. But we need to cut down on meat consumption which is the basis of an industry that has in some places turned into a monstrosity.
I think we should keep using and caring for all the nice film cameras out there. A nice side effect is that we get to look cool on the streets as well! :P
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Fascinating discussion about everything from kidding about eating goats (I see what you did there...and I thought it was funny) to why people like Leicas. Long live Filmwasters.
Full disclosure: I'm a veggie too. Have been for 32 years. About 20 years ago I decided I'm like that because it what makes me happy. Given the parlous state of the world economy and the millions of people who don't even have clean drinking water, let alone a choice of what they're going to eat for lunch, I don't think it's my place to try and justify the choice I've made from my incredibly privileged position w/ regard to what I eat in any other terms. I do it because I want to. By the same token, I have no idea why anyone would want to have a go at me for that, or make assumptions about anything to do with me just because I don't want to eat meat/fish/worms/oysters....or Marmite. Actually, especially Marmite :)
And I've never wanted to own a Leica.
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Wow, lots of vegetarians around here! I suppose I'm technically not a full-on vegetarian because I do still eat some fish on occasion, but I haven't eaten any land animals in more than 20 years.
Mike's right - we all leave an imprint. I personally try to minimize mine where I can, but things have to be prioritized. We all just have to pick our battles and make choices that allow us to live with ourselves.
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Oh, and Ed? My assumption about you when I read that you don't eat Marmite is that you are a wise man. Marmite is evil.
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Wow. I typed the first reply here, but deleted it as I thought I was being controversial. It did however include comment on the recent Nat Geo edition on science deniers, mild by comparison to the good natured comments that did eventually follow though.
While I am a meat eater myself, I could happily be an ethical vegetarian - as my children all are - if not merely because of the question, 'Could I kill and butcher the meat I eat myself?'. Clearly in my case, the answer is 'no'. Fish perhaps...
In a similar vein (I kid), could I waste film if I had to cut the hoofs off animals? No, again. There lays the conundrum; is doing, using, or eating something OK if all the nasty business happens elsewhere by someone else? I assume animals are not farmed just to make film though, and film's use of animal by-products is one of convenience? Like alternate fuel sources for cars, unless it is uneconomical to use something, and alternative rarely surfaces.
What I can say for near certainty though, is the financial impetus to develop an alternative for film will almost certainly never exist...
By the way, in the extracts field, I am already there - as I am not able to eat Marmite, confining myself to the more ethical. better tasting, better for you, Vegemite. Skj.
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Ethical Yeast Extract? ... Now there's a thought!
I'm genuinely interested why you can eat vegemite but not marmite Skorj? Is there an additive that you are sensitive to?
Me... I love Marmite. It is salty-toast-spread heaven. I equate yeast extract spreads to slide film. Marmite is velvia, a whack of colour for your taste buds. Vegemite is provia, a bit bland, a bit meh. And... Did you know they are both byproducts of the brewing industry? So eating marmite is like recycling beer waste. There's another thought.
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There's nothing more natural than killing animals and using their bodies for food, clothing and tools.
Nothing more natural or nothing more human? Given we are afforded the benefit of choice and ethical consideration, does that render the nature argument as invalid?
Not questions aimed at you 16mman... Just thinking out loud.
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There's nothing less natural than eating Marmite.
(Thread Locked by Administrator)
;D ;D ;D
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Now we really are becoming controversial. I have just had my daily breakfast of two slices of toast covered with Marmite. DELICIOUS.
End of debate.
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I'm with you Charles. I can't livel without marmite - great for veggie gravy, great with cheese on toast, just plain great!
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When I was teaching overseas, I was asked to settle the matter once and for all - Marmite or Vegemite? The English and Aussie/Kiwi contingents in the staff room decided they needed a neutral American judge. They blindfolded me and gave me a bite of each spread on some toast.
The verdict was that they are both foul and my colleagues were trying to kill me.
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That is brilliant Leonore! I've never met an American who likes Marmite. Salt on toast is how a US friend of mine described it.
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I guess I'm lucky/unlucky since both are not available in local grocery stores... ;D
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That is brilliant Leonore! I've never met an American who likes Marmite.
Leon I think we may have inadvertently discovered why we have more cultured outlook here in the UK (Yeast culture) ;D
I'll quickly run to the exit...
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Funny how lately the threads have descended into discussions of food!
I don't have much of an opinion on the Marmite vs Vegemite debate as I frankly don't eat either. Though I will admit that I have a jar of Marmite that I've used a few times in vegetarian gravy and in bread dough to give the bread an extra umami / glutamic acid kick (the yeast is dead so it doesn't add to the rise). Generally for my salty bread spreads I rely on the much better tasting white miso paste.
As Leon points out Marmite & Vegemite are byproducts of the brewing industry. Another instance of something that would otherwise be wasted being re-purposed! Just like gelatin!
both are not available in local grocery stores
In French-Canadian culture we tend to prefer the sweet rather than salty on toast...
(http://gatineau.rougefm.ca/Pics/FRED/mapospread.JPG)
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Well, I should throw in my red-blooded American taste buds for good measure. If you want something delicious and savory on your toast, there's nothing that beats good ol' peanut butter.
No animals were harmed in the writing of this forum post, though I am having some chicken soup for lunch.
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No conflict. I like both. Crunchy peanut butter. And Marmite. Yum yum. It has been a while since I last could get hold of a jar of the latter. No one's heard of it here in Norway. Oh, and Lemon Curd. I miss that too.
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Nothing more natural or nothing more human? Given we are afforded the benefit of choice and ethical consideration, does that render the nature argument as invalid?
I suppose it depends on what we believe our origins are. If we believe we originate from animals, and that we've attained a higher moral plane than they have, than perhaps eating animals is akin to cannibalism.
If we believe we are made by the divine and have always been on a higher plane than animals, and that animals were made by the devine for our use, than there's nothing more natural than using them.
The one thing I think both of these positions can agree on is the wrongness of animal cruelty.
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That is brilliant Leonore! I've never met an American who likes Marmite. Salt on toast is how a US friend of mine described it.
As an American I did not grow up with Marmite. So when a friend of mine who grew up in Huddersfield introduced me to the stuff, spread thinly on a slice of toast, I had a hard time imagining anyone eating it willingly. Ever. But then he introduced me to Twiglets and the taste slowly grew on me. Now I really like Marmite and, the small jars are great for storing Rodinal because I can easily get an oral syringe in there to draw out the few milliliters (American non-Marmite native spelling) that I need.
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The one thing I think both of these positions can agree on is the wrongness of animal cruelty.
Good points in your post 16mman, and the last one is particularly strong.
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When Marmite was first mentioned in this thread visions of eating a small furry animal popped into my head (Marmot). I was confused because that wouldn't be vegetarian. I have heard of Vegimite but not Marmite, haven't tried either of them. I usually put cream cheese on my toasted bagel.
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Now I really like Marmite and, the small jars are great for storing Rodinal because I can easily get an oral syringe in there to draw out the few milliliters (American non-Marmite native spelling) that I need.
Fantastic idea!
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When Marmite was first mentioned in this thread visions of eating a small furry animal popped into my head (Marmot). I was confused because that wouldn't be vegetarian. I have heard of Vegimite but not Marmite, haven't tried either of them. I usually put cream cheese on my toasted bagel.
Cream cheese and marmite bagels are the equivalent of food heaven. You should try!
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For the uninitiated:
(http://www.eca.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/videos/events/marmite1.jpg)
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No conflict. I like both. Crunchy peanut butter. And Marmite. Yum yum. It has been a while since I last could get hold of a jar of the latter. No one's heard of it here in Norway. Oh, and Lemon Curd. I miss that too.
yes and until you try peanut butter with marmite you have not lived..
http://vegancrunk.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/peanut-butter-meet-marmite.html (http://vegancrunk.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/peanut-butter-meet-marmite.html)
The taste (which is what my mother tells me I called marmite as a toddler) and a flag waving version
(http://www.pbase.com/image/159350591/medium.jpg)
For your majesty long may you spread it on your toast
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You have to have been fed Marmite as a child to like it, otherwise most people just won't understand. My wife (Mexican) certainly doesn't and neither do any Mexican friends or relatives who come over and visit.
I've tried Vegemite and it's nice but abit bland and boring.
Marmite makes your muscules grow bigger ;)
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Would anyone please pass me the butter ;D
Somehow, I was just thinking of those Grey Poupon Dijon mustard ads from the 80's...
Grey Poupon Original Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_pGT8Q_tjk#)
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Potentially one of the most divisive internet forum discussions ever... wonder if we'll look back fondly on the great marmite debate of 2015?
For the record, I'm pro-marmite.
A hot buttered crumpet with marmite simply can't be bettered.
This has reminded me... strangely, and for reasons no-one has ever been able to fathom, my nephew used to call me Uncle Marmite when he was first starting to talk, and the nickname stuck for a good few years. "love me or hate me... just don't ignore me!" ;D
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Dijon Mustard? English Mustard please. ;)
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I'm genuinely interested why you can eat vegemite but not marmite Skorj? Is there an additive that you are sensitive to?
Easy! When we arrived from the Wide Brown Land to Blighty, my mother told me Vegemite wasn't available and we had to eat Marmite. But as it was the same, all would be OK. Well, it obviously wasn't the same, and as a kid I realized then my mother lied to me. If she lied to me about Marmite, I thought maybe she's also lied to me about other things... The Easter Bilby perhaps? Is he real? Father Xmas? Did veal really come from corn? My world was never the same... I've never been able to eat it since.
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You have to have been fed Marmite as a child to like it, otherwise most people just won't understand. My wife (Mexican) certainly doesn't and neither do any Mexican friends or relatives who come over and visit.
I've tried Vegemite and it's nice but abit bland and boring.
Marmite makes your muscules grow bigger ;)
I believe that is the key - slowly developing immunity from childhood. Trying either version for the first time as an adult usually involves making noises like a cat trying to get out a hairball.
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I believe that is the key - slowly developing immunity from childhood. Trying either version for the first time as an adult usually involves making noises like a cat trying to get out a hairball.
You're not selling me on this Marmite stuff. I do like the idea of putting Rodinal in the container, my bottle is almost to the point where my syringe won't reach.
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Dijon Mustard? English Mustard please. ;)
mustard? no we're going into interesting territory :D
dijon mustard is nice but I like a bit of crunch in my mustard and an even mix of brown and yellow seeds.
(http://www.spisa.nu/recipeImages/ri_12790_3.jpg)
give me mustard and potatoes and I'll be a happy man ;D
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Skorj: The wounds of childhood ;)
Jonas: Good for you. I'm a huge mustard fan and will try any version of it. I even have it on toast with peanut butter.
Marmite Freaks: You're still all wrong. My introduction to the heinous gloop was as a 6 year old, when a class mate offered me a bite of his Marm**e sandwich. It was so vicious tasting that I honestly felt like he'd subjected me to an electric shock. It left an impression and I didn't stray anywhere near the stuff for around 20 years. Then I tried a Twiglet at some point which just confirmed my suspicions. Hideous. I do however use it in gravies, stews, soups etc.
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I am also a fan of mustard. Must be from when I was young and lived in Germany, Bratwürst with brötchen and Löwensenf at the local Imbiss. Oh boy did the mustard make the meal.
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It reminds me that in the early 80's, one of my dad's coworker was sent to Paris for a job. While he was there, he had a Hot Dog and seeing how little mustard the cook put on it, he thought he was being cheap and told him to put plenty on. The story goes that he never had tasted such a "burn your mouth" strong hotdog...
I don't know if he also had him put on some Jalapenos...
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Eating marmite is like recycling beer waste.
I think you should be their spokesperson, Leon! Actually I have never tried the stuff - perhaps I should as a veggie, tho there seems to be a veggie divide on this matter. I am about to hit the miso for my veggie stew as it is my fermented product of choice.
BTW, it seems like their are a few vegetarians out there of the Leica-schmeica variety (to quote mr marmite). Is there any pro-Leica veggies out their or is this a meaningless correlation.
And mike I knew you would eventually bring up the freakin mapospread!!
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Speaking of British spreads, one thing my wife discovered when we were in London several years ago is Branston Pickle and the ploughman's lunch. They do have Branston Pickle in our local grocery stores.
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And mike I knew you would eventually bring up the freakin mapospread!!
Holy freakin' canoli!!!! Maple flavored spread?!! Why has this never crossed the border? I have always had a love for Canada. Many a brilliant vacation was spent there in my youth. Back in the 60s and 70s and early 80s, a time woefully remembered as the American Potato Chip Flavor Deficiency (we only had access to plain, barbecue, sour cream and onion and garlic flavored chips, crisps to you denizens of the empire) a trip to Canada was an eye opening experience for a chip loving kid. They had dill flavored chips, chicken chips and the piece de resistance, the pinnacle of chip flavordom, the alpha and omega chip: ketchup chips. I love Canada for many reasons, but the ketchup chip alone would have won my feelings of international fraternity. But this, the concealing of the very existence of a maple flavored spread I cannot abide. I am disheartened, saddened and gutted by the lack of cross border maple spreadness. My toast is bereft. True north strong and hoarding all of the maple flavored goodness. Of course a can or two would probably assuage these wounds.
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They do have Branston Pickle in our local grocery stores.
Yes! Bring out the Branston!
Branston 2013 TV Ad: http://youtu.be/oPXnAVUpqfw (http://youtu.be/oPXnAVUpqfw)
Now, piccalilli is a whole other bucket of eels. Eww.
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...
And mike I knew you would eventually bring up the freakin mapospread!!
Holy freakin' canoli!!!! Maple flavored spread?!! Why has this never crossed the border? I have always had a love for Canada. Many a brilliant vacation was spent there in my youth. Back in the 60s and 70s and early 80s, a time woefully remembered as the American Potato Chip Flavor Deficiency (we only had access to plain, barbecue, sour cream and onion and garlic flavored chips, crisps to you denizens of the empire) a trip to Canada was an eye opening experience for a chip loving kid. They had dill flavored chips, chicken chips and the piece de resistance, the pinnacle of chip flavordom, the alpha and omega chip: ketchup chips. I love Canada for many reasons, but the ketchup chip alone would have won my feelings of international fraternity. But this, the concealing of the very existence of a maple flavored spread I cannot abide. I am disheartened, saddened and gutted by the lack of cross border maple spreadness. My toast is bereft. True north strong and hoarding all of the maple flavored goodness. Of course a can or two would probably assuage these wounds.
And that's just the beginning of the stuff we hide from you ;)
Just imagine all the sugar shack goodness you're missing on!
And we don't just get maple syrup from those places. Maple butter, maple hard candy, maple fudge, maple cones, tire d'erable, maple beans, maple ham, nuns farts, maple sugar crystals....
And there's plenty of good for the buds bad for the health goodies you haven't heard of.
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nun's farts? ??? does not sound very appetizing ...
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It's actually pretty good. here's the recipe for pète de soeur
http://www.food.com/recipe/pete-de-soeur-nuns-farts-497772 (http://www.food.com/recipe/pete-de-soeur-nuns-farts-497772)
We also have Oreilles de Crisse (Christ's Ears... but surprisingly it doesn't have anything religious about them, I think the name is more related to the ever popular swear words than anything else)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreilles_de_crisse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreilles_de_crisse)
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That's cinnamon whirls ruined forever! Nun's farts indeed.
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It's actually pretty good. here's the recipe for pète de soeur
http://www.food.com/recipe/pete-de-soeur-nuns-farts-497772 (http://www.food.com/recipe/pete-de-soeur-nuns-farts-497772)
Sounds like a load of old guff to me, or just hot air at the least....
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Nun's farts - my wife's family (not francophone but from eastern ontario) will jokingly praise fluffy pastries but saying they are "as light as a fart".
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I have never met a Pets des Soeurs I didn't like! ;D I have a lot of very fond memories of those pastries. As a child I must have eaten my weight in them.
Maple flavored spread?!!
I would not be shocked if you could find Map-o-Spread in the northern states, especially in the Northeast. Smuckers bought out the Canadian company who owned it and now you can find it everywhere. There was a time when you could only find it in French speaking parts of Ontario and Quebec but now you can buy it in any Walmart. And despite its name, Map-O-Spread is actually a condensed sugar spread rather than a maple flavoured spread. Why? No actual maple syrup in it (maybe it did at one point but it definitely does not now). For what its worth, maple butter (essentially maple syrup whipped until it becomes creamy and spreadable) is better. Another favourite bread spread in our home was Grenache caramel spread (http://gatineau.rougefm.ca/Pics/FRED/grenache.JPG)
And mike I knew you would eventually bring up the freakin mapospread!!
Ha! My days of Grenache and Map-O-Spread are long gone. Italian Nutella on the other hand... Or white miso...
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I'll second the celebration of the ploughman's lunch however I prefer my Branston with Bubble & Squeak (another fine culinary gift from the UK). Bubble & Squeak is just sad without it.
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Bubble & squeak... now we're talkin'.
Gotta have a fried egg on top, and a good dollop of HP sauce...