Author Topic: Tray developing 5x4 negs  (Read 11804 times)

irv_b

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Tray developing 5x4 negs
« on: January 18, 2014, 10:57:18 PM »
Hi guys
I have taken some shots with the Ilford obscura and have to develop the 5x4 negs. I thought the best way to do this would be in the darkroom using the trays I dev prints in.  The questions I have are.
 How tricky is doing it in total darkness? will I need to practice first?
 How many sheets should I put in the tray (10 x 12) at one time? which way up, or does it not matter?
 R09 or Isolol3 with HP5?
 Presoak first?
 Gentle constant  or  intermittent agitation?
 Any hints to stop the negs floating together and sticking to each other?
 Fingers or tongs to get them out of the trays?

Or is there a way of developing them that I haven't come across on my net search?

 

Phil Bebbington

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2014, 11:01:21 PM »
Now, you are best ignoring anything I have to say. I have never developed any film, but, I do have a LF camera so will need to address this at some stage. I have been quite drawn to this http://www.mod54.com/ for a while.

Just putting it out there  ;)

ManuelL

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2014, 11:33:31 PM »
I can't comment on the tray development as I have never done that. I am using the Paterson tank with the mod54 and also have Combi Plan tanks. As tanks go, the Combi Plan are easier to load, but mine are very old leak a little at the bottom valve (only matters for stand development). Otherwise both systems are great.

irv_b

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 11:42:38 PM »
Thanks for the link Phil! With the MOD54, I would have to get the 3 reel tank to do it that way and I was looking at doing it with the gear I already have, as this is the only LF camera I have.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 11:48:04 PM by irv_b »

Domingo A. Siliceo

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 08:03:48 AM »
[...]
How tricky is doing it in total darkness? will I need to practice first?
[...]

just to avoid this, I bought a Combi Plan tank and I must say it was a fantastic election. IMHO, trays are for paper or ULF.

But I've never used the mod54, so I can't compare.

Francois

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 01:40:56 PM »
Well, there are quite a few ways to do this.
The simplest one I found is to take the 2 reel tank and four rubber bands.
Curl the film along the long way with the emulsion inside, secure with a rubber band.
A bit like here http://www.dirapon.be/Plancuve.html
You pretty much need to pre-wash all 4x5 sheets no matter what if you want very even development, so it's a good habit to take.

The other way is the shuffle method in a tray.
You prepare your sheets with the key sheet rotated 180°, in a stack emulsion facing down.
You set the timer, when it starts, you start putting sheets one by one in the tray. Once they're all in, you start taking the top one and moving it to the top of the pile. Every time the key moves to the top, it counts as one full cycle. You keep on doing this until the timer hits zero. Then you finish the cycle and then move the sheets one by one to the stop bath and so on. Doing a full cycle ensures that the film has been an equal amount of time in the developer.

Personally, I'd rather use rubber bands and a tank.
Francois

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Adam Doe

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 04:26:27 PM »
I have a Combi-Plan and Mod 54. I find the Mod 54 difficult to load properly in darkness. It's very hard, for me, to tell if the sheets are seated properly and that I don't have a corner or end of two sheets in the same spot. The benefit of the Mod is that in the Paterson 3 reel tank, chemistry pours in and out quickly. The Combi-Plan, while much easier to load, fills and drains much slower. That being said, I haven't noticed any obvious uneven development from it. For ease of use I'd have to vote for the Combi. Other people seemed quite pleased with the Mod 54 so it could just be me that's challenged with loading it.

Terry

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 08:53:55 PM »
I am a complete convert to the Unicolor tank.  I can do four 4x5, two 5x7 or one 8x10 in each go.  I got one of the motor bases, so I just start it and let it go.  It gives me very even development and only uses 300ml of developer.  Beseler made a similar system.

rotarysmp

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 03:01:07 PM »
I borrowed a JOBO tank which takes 2x 135 films, and tried to develop 2 4x5's using the texas taco method. Turns out this tank is about 3mm (1/8") too short and I creased the top of the negatives when I jammed the top on. Didn't really matter as the film was APX 100 expired in 2001, and although it has been in the freezer since new, I think it is shot. Lots of middle grey tones, faint image of the  subject. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 03:41:47 PM by rotarysmp »
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Chris A Fraser

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 04:39:05 PM »
I've been tempted by the Unicolor set up. I just bought an 8x10 camera and think this is the way to go!
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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 05:28:15 PM »
I'm going to try the taco method like Francois mentioned but with a 2 reel Patterson tank.  This is the tutorial I'm following:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digi-film/sets/72157627864733730/with/6231723389/

It sounds like the lid will hit the film so you need to have the corners facing out to avoid creasing them.  This tank will use 800 ml of chemistry so how many sheets can I stand develop at a time with 1-100 Adonal?  I use 400 ml for a roll of 120 film which is 72 square inches but I will need to have twice as much chemistry to cover the 4x5 film.  4 sheets of 4x5 is 80 square inches which is close to one roll of 120 film.  Will having almost twice as much chemistry affect it or does that matter with Stand Developing?

irv_b

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 07:13:14 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts guys :D
I think I will also go the route that Francois suggested the "taco method". Thanks for the link to Flickr Bryan hopefully I will get time to do it this week.

Francois

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 09:33:09 PM »
You can do it with regular rubber bands. Since there's no emulsion on the back side, you don't need chemistry to soak through the bands like they say in the instructions. Even worse, these can absorb chemicals and carry them through to the next baths...
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rotarysmp

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 09:44:28 PM »
I only got to borrow my ten year olds two favourite hair bands for my taco developing if I promised to return them.
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Francois

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 03:09:22 PM »
Then, she'll just whine about smelling like fix...
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rotarysmp

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 10:51:20 PM »
Probably. Lucky I left town on a business trip.
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jharr

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 03:56:25 AM »
I have done the taco method and it works just fine. I currently use the MOD54 and it works like a charm as long as I'm not too vigorous with agitation. If I slosh to much, the films come out of the channels and that causes problems. As far as loading in the dark. with each sheet, I load it and then feel each of the four slots to make sure there are enough 'empty' ones. For example, I will load the first sheet, then feel around to make sure there are two empty slots at each corner. Then I will load the 2nd sheet, then feel around to make sure there is one empty slot at each corner. etc. Easy peasy.
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sapata

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 10:49:10 AM »
I've done once when I had one single sheet to develop and didn't want to fill the whole Combiplan up with chemicals. I got a very uneven processing as a result, not to mention the hassle. My veredict is that my Combiplan is definitely one of the best investments in photography I've ever done. My very own opinion is that it's just not worth the hassle doing with the tray, the Combiplan it's easy to handle and not that expensive, it will save you time and money as 4x5 film aren't cheap nowadays.

irv_b

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2014, 01:31:45 PM »
Thanks for the input Mauricio, it's good to hear from someone who has actually tried the tray method. Mind you the combiplan tank is as rare as rocking horse s*** so I'm hoping to get time on Tues to try the taco method.

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2014, 05:56:19 PM »
I've developed hundreds of sheets of 5x4 and 10x8 film in trays.  To me, it is a foolproof method and the only way I have been able to produce consistent, even development.  Somewhere, I have a Yankee Developing Tank for sheet film.  I never was able to get it to work without streaky negatives.  I couldn't seem to master the agitation procedure.  Perhaps it isn't possible.  I recently bought a MOD54 reel and Patterson tank combo.  Hopefully, I will have better luck with it.  The comfort of working with the lights on is very appealing. However, the tried and true method of tray development, in the dark, remains my standard.  It's almost impossible to do it wrong once you get the hang of shuffling film in the dark.  The trick is keeping the negatives fanned out like playing cards in a dry hand, while you put the negatives, one-by-one into a tray of water with the other, wet hand.  After you shuffle through the negatives in the water once or twice, you can put all the negatives together into the developer and start continuous shuffling while timing the development.  Stop bath, fixer and wash are done the same way.
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Phil Bebbington

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2014, 07:35:01 PM »
Speaking as someone who develops nothing in any of these ways. The common thread that comes through is, if it works for you then it is a good way. If it doesn't, there are other ways to try. The thread is invaluable to me.

rotarysmp

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 07:30:31 AM »
To get started in 4x5, my film films were tray developed in three old ice cream containers. Not ideal, as there were no ribs ot lift the film to get tongs under, but it worked fine.
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Francois

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 01:20:42 PM »
If you want to use food containers, just add some ribs made from hot glue to the bottom.
When tray processing, we usually don't use tongues, they're too rough on the film. Gloved fingers work better.
Francois

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Poliweb

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2014, 07:59:54 PM »
Adding to the mix:

I started developing 4x5 in trays - including the shuffle method - with good results. I have ended up using Kodak film hangers with home made plexiglass tanks. I find the technique easy to use with consistent results developing from 1 to 6 sheets at a time. I just picked up a couple of 8x10 hangers that I'm using for 8x10 x-ray film that scratches easily - so far I'm getting good results with those too.

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 09:25:13 PM »
dip and dunk is definitely the best way to go. Some pro labs do it even for 35mm and 120.
But the only bad thing about the technique is that it requires a lot of chemistry. But apart from that, it's still the best.
Francois

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Poliweb

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 12:03:54 AM »
...
But the only bad thing about the technique is that it requires a lot of chemistry. ...
Not necessarily true. I am using very dilute HC-110 (Dil H) and can run into the capacity limit for the solution using dip and dunk.  With the right choice of developer it doesn't have to be wasteful.


irv_b

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2014, 10:23:17 PM »
I haven't had the chance to get round to doing this yet :-[ and as I'm away for a while it's going to be a couple of weeks till I get to it :(

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2014, 09:27:15 PM »
Thanks for the tips of hot glue ribs and gloves.
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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 07:39:13 PM »
Sort of a goofy question here.

I've been developing pinhole 4x5 shots on RC paper in trays for the past few months or so. Everything has been going pretty good with that. However, I noticed on one shot (prob the first I developed) I left a fingerprint right on the image where I guess the oil from my hand kept a lot of the developer off of the paper.

I'm guessing developing 4X5 film would be even more sensitive to something like this. Should gloves be worn for the whole film loading and later developing process?

I'm about to start using 4X5 film now and want to get this sorted out first.

irv_b

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 08:26:04 PM »
I think it would be best to use tongs when shuffling around the negs in the tray or holding them by the edges prior to putting them in the tray - I managed to hold them by the edges when putting the elastic band around them easily enough trying the "taco" method unfortunately the elastic band left an undeveloped line on the negs :(

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 08:45:05 PM »
I have to use gloves when loading/ unloading the film holders, otherwise I always see oily finger prints on the film when I develop it. I guess some finger exude more grease than others?
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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 09:12:22 PM »
I guess so... and there's also the sweat problem. Some people have highly acidic sweat which could definitely have an effect on the film.
I remember my grandpa used to work in an aircraft manufacture and he had to wear gloves when handling parts because the acidic sweat he had on his fingers would actually permanently mark the metal!
Francois

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 10:18:56 PM »
Changing my assessment... I decided to give my Mod 54 another go a couple of weeks ago and I changed my loading method from using one hand to hold the Mod and one to load the film to laying the mod on its side and using two hands to seat the sheets of film in the holder, which made it far easier for me to know that the film was seated correctly. Now that I feel more confident loading it I have to say I'll probably stick with this method as I like working with the Patersen tank better than using the Combi-Plan's tank.

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 02:15:56 AM »
Tray development is the traditional way for film, and has worked for a century. There are some key insights.

First, scratching a negative with the corner of another is the most common problem, as the emulsion is fragile when wet. So it's best to learn a shuffle method whereby the negatives are face down, with the top negative placed under the stack, keeping all of them parallel so the edges are aligned. This helps to eliminate the scratching problem.

Second, gloved hands are best. Tongs are impossible once the film is wet, the developer makes the film feel slippery and slimy. You have to be able to tell if you've grabbed a single sheet or if several are stuck together.

As for the agitation method, I don't bother with counting how many passes I've made, just use a constant, gentle shuffle method continuously for the duration of the development cycle.

Use a large enough tray, otherwise you can get dense areas parallel to the edges where the wave action bouncing off the tray walls causes localized excessive development from increased agitation.

Due to the temperature difference between your fingers and the chemistry, keeping your fingers in contact with the film too long in one spot can cause density marks, due to accelerated development in those areas.

Besides these cautions and conditions, tray development is very simple, and also meditatively enjoyable. I recommend everyone should try it.

~Joe

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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 06:19:58 AM »
I use tray for 8 x 10 but only for single sheets. Scratching always occurs for me otherwise. As for 5x4, I can not do it without damage or uneven development, so the combiplan is my saviour. I don't use the lid though. I don't treat it as a daylight tank. I prefill it with developer and drop the film holder into it in the dark. Using the tank allows for easy use of stand and semi stand techniques that are problematic in trays.

With film prices as they are, I just can't risk the damage that I get from tray dev.
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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:39 PM »
A very long time ago I read that you can add a few drops of photo-flo to the developer to even out development of sheet film.
I've never tried it though... but I see no reason for it not to work.
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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 02:41:07 PM »
I use one of these:
http://paul-betweenarockandahardplace.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/developing-large-format-sheet-film-in.html
It does four 4x5, or two 5x7 or a single 8x10 sheet and uses 75ml of chemical per sheet.
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Re: Tray developing 5x4 negs
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2014, 08:18:45 PM »
Thanks for the tips everyone. I'll keep it in mind when getting things together within the next month or so.