Author Topic: Range of tones , what's your formula ? (Read 5889 times)

sapata · « **on:** September 23, 2009, 01:27:52 AM »

I was going through some negatives I processed few months ago but didn't scanned them, only to realized that I found the "formula" I was looking for !

I've been trying to get more tones of greys in my pictures and these shots are a bit what I was expecting. How do you guys do ?

The camera is a Rolleiflex 35SLR, I used Fuji Across 100 and processed whit Rodinal 1:50 . Is there a better combination ? I'd love to hear opinions and advices... Cheers !

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moominsean · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2009, 02:35:42 AM »

I use Acros all the time and usually develop in 1:1 D-76. Get some deeper blacks usually, and a decent range depending on the camera and exposure. Acros does seem to be a fairly high-contrast film. You might try Neopan 400 for a bit more range.

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Andrea. · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2009, 08:46:37 AM »

I use Rodinal with just about everything - foma400, Panf, Hp5 and it seems just fine to me.The difficult bit is getting tones in the print but I usually use split conntrast for that.
I have used Presyscol ef - which is lovely - but not sure I like the toxicity.
This is a scan of Foma400 in R09 [Rodinal clone] @ 1:25.

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Photo_Utopia · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2009, 12:09:25 PM »

I think tonal range depends on many different things; exposure, development, agitation, film choice etc

Of course some visualisation of the original scene helps because not all subjects fit into the 'wide tones' final image, sometimes you need fewer tones to convey drama or dynamics or more high key (light tones) to suggest tranquility or the gentleness of your subject.

My modus for longer tones always takes into account the tonal range of the original scene so its hard to give a rule of thumb but...

I tend to when given a very wide brightness range original scene to over expose (up to a stop). Then under develop in a compensating developer like Rodinal at 1;50 or even 1:100 (sometimes with reduced agitation on very bright days) this gives a lower contrast result with more shadow detail thats easier to scan.
For more dramatic subjects you can do the opposite which reduces the tones or makes more contrast.

For an average scene I might just increase exposure by half a stop and under develop by 10%, no magic bullet just experiment you need to find out what works for you.
Mark

Francois · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2009, 03:41:33 PM »

Selecting a film with long tonal range is quite easy by looking at the characteristic curves. The lower the slope angle the lower the contrast.
Exposure can affect the amount of information recorded on film by changing where you start recording on the curve. Overexposing and underdeveloping usually works well for high contrast scenes.

But a film with a steep curve will never give you a long smooth tonal range...

choppert · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2009, 03:55:59 PM »

I've been enjoying the smooth results I've been getting from Kodak HC-110 diluted 1:127 and stood standing developed.

My previous posts, however, will attest to the fact that I'm not really sure what I'm doing!

Stand developing is immensely lazy too! Pour in the liquid, set a timer for an hour and go and watch half an episode of Columbo!

Now that's my kind of art!

Chops

Darnley · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2009, 04:01:45 PM »

What the heck. I suppose this is as good a time as any for my first post here!

I agree that Fuji Across in 1:50 is a great combination. Another combination that I have been doing a lot of recently is
TMax 400 in Rodinal 1:50. I love the tonality I get from this combo.
For high contrast scenes, I usually just stand process film in Rodinal 1:100 for an hour or two.

Jim

LT · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2009, 04:25:09 PM »

i think you'll get as many different answers as there are types of film developer to be honest! If you are happy with your results, then stick with them and you wont go far wrong.

I always slightly overexpose and then use a good compensating developer - in my case it usually involves pyrocatechol. I'm generally happy with the results I'm getting - tonality-wise that is ... subject matter and composition are an entirely different matter!

sapata · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2009, 07:56:24 PM »

That's great... loads of advices thank you very much guys !

Just ont thing I'm a bit confused is the fact that few you you guys mentioned that the more you dilute rodinal the more contrast you'll get but here http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/cart/Agfa-Rodinal-500ml-p-929.html is telling me something diferent ( or maybe I misunderstood...

)

Darnley · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2009, 08:44:44 PM »

Sapata,

I meant to say that in order to compensate for high contrast scenes, I stand process in Rodinal 1:100 for an hour or two.
It definitely does not produce high contrast negatives.

Jim

Francois · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2009, 10:20:06 PM »

Quote from: sapata on September 23, 2009, 07:56:24 PM

That's great... loads of advices thank you very much guys !

Just ont thing I'm a bit confused is the fact that few you you guys mentioned that the more you dilute rodinal the more contrast you'll get but here http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/cart/Agfa-Rodinal-500ml-p-929.html is telling me something diferent ( or maybe I misanderstood... )

The more dilute the developer, the lower the activity, the lower the contrast. Same thing for low temperatures (but this time it's related to atomic velocity... much more complex thing)

sapata · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2009, 10:21:14 PM »

Quote from: Darnley on September 23, 2009, 08:44:44 PM

Sapata,

I meant to say that in order to compensate for high contrast scenes, I stand process in Rodinal 1:100 for an hour or two.
It definitely does not produce high contrast negatives.

Jim

I see...

Thanks for the tip ! Rodinal seems to be the choice for most of us here as is very versatile.

sapata · « **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2009, 10:27:55 PM »

Quote from: Francois on September 23, 2009, 10:20:06 PM

Quote from: sapata on September 23, 2009, 07:56:24 PM
That's great... loads of advices thank you very much guys !

Just ont thing I'm a bit confused is the fact that few you you guys mentioned that the more you dilute rodinal the more contrast you'll get but here http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/cart/Agfa-Rodinal-500ml-p-929.html is telling me something diferent ( or maybe I misanderstood... )

The more dilute the developer, the lower the activity, the lower the contrast. Same thing for low temperatures (but this time it's related to atomic velocity... much more complex thing)

Great !
I heard also that you get a much finer grain when you agitate very slowly, is that true ?

Photo_Utopia · « **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2009, 11:28:00 AM »

You don't really get less grain when you use low agitation methods what you get is lower contrast and sometimes edge effects*. Lowest grain will be achieved with shorter dev times (which tend to be lower developer dilutions) and normal agitation. Of course if low grain is you goal then you'll probably want to use a standard type of developer like D76/ID11 or even a speed reducing developer like Perceptol which will typically half your box speed.
If you use more dilute developers (for compensating effects) you tend to get slightly more grain if anything, I find this with Rodinal and 400 speed films which I tend to use either less diluted say 1:25 or even solvent based developer.

*Edge effects are sometimes known as Mackie lines and are most apparent in hight contrast areas

My advice to the OP is to do some reading on the zone system. If you're using 35mm then it's possible that there will be lots of different conditions on a single roll if that is the case I'd just meter for the shadows then stop down 2 stops, if you keep that consistent then you can play with the development and agitation to nail your modus.

db · « **Reply #14 on:** September 25, 2009, 08:40:56 AM »

lots of good answers here.

A couple years ago I shot a large portrait series on 120 Fuji. It was the first time I'd ventured away from the ol' yellow box for an extended period of time. (fuji were book sponsors) I processed in Rodinal and was pretty pleased with the tonal separation, contrast and latitude. I'm interested that lots of others here agree. and Sean- love your 'Mr Yanmar' - that's nice work..

But I gotta say that as much as I love shooting B/W film, I've never paid a lot of attention to tweaking the darkroom techniques and systems. Maybe that's because a large percentage of it is Diana work and well, to be honest the negs are all over the place and I can't see the point of finessing the processing a great deal.

My tip for getting good tones is just get the damn exposure right. That's going to get you 90% of the way there. Dev types, dilutions and agitation is going to be worth 10% at best.

I'm sure any of the darkroom maestros here will shoot down my theory

but that's just my way of thinking.

LT · « **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:27:08 AM »

Quote from: db on September 25, 2009, 08:40:56 AM

lots of good answers here.

A couple years ago I shot a large portrait series on 120 Fuji. It was the first time I'd ventured away from the ol' yellow box for an extended period of time. (fuji were book sponsors) I processed in Rodinal and was pretty pleased with the tonal separation, contrast and latitude. I'm interested that lots of others here agree. and Sean- love your 'Mr Yanmar' - that's nice work..

But I gotta say that as much as I love shooting B/W film, I've never paid a lot of attention to tweaking the darkroom techniques and systems. Maybe that's because a large percentage of it is Diana work and well, to be honest the negs are all over the place and I can't see the point of finessing the processing a great deal.

My tip for getting good tones is just get the damn exposure right. That's going to get you 90% of the way there. Dev types, dilutions and agitation is going to be worth 10% at best.

I'm sure any of the darkroom maestros here will shoot down my theory but that's just my way of thinking.

I'm pretty much the same as you Don. Although I'd say it's all in the printing (or photoshop of you're one of "Those"). My approach is to get as much info as I can on a neg and treat it as the starting point. I then warp the tones as much as I can in the darkroom to get them to where I want them to be. Split grade, selective burns & dodges, diffusion, flashing and fogging - all great tools to help me manipulate the tones.

I've been through all the zone system stuff, constantly seeking the perfect developer etc, but I seem to work most comfortably as I explain here. I've never really understood the whole approach of everything done in camera with minimal post-work.

Francois · « **Reply #16 on:** September 25, 2009, 02:38:58 PM »

I must say that getting the exposure right on the first shot is the simplest, most reliable method. When doing pull-processing or stand processing (or even water bath processing), there is a lot of guess work involved and the results can be just about anything...

sapata · « **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2009, 08:42:59 PM »

For now I'll be using Fuji processed with Rodinal and see what happens. I can't got really further than processing the negatives myself as I cannot afford going to a darkroom to do my prints at the moment. Ordered loads of Fuji through 7dayshop and I'm going to Brazil for a month in three weeks time so it will be plenty to try.
This topic has been very helpful and the zone system is something I should definetely try at some point.

Francois · « **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:46:38 PM »

There is actually a much simpler alternative to the Zone-System aptly called the Stop-System.

As opposed to Ansel Adam's version which involves endless testing, the Stop-System considers the quality of the film now produced to be of very even thus eliminating the need for precise testing. All you need is a very standard processing technique which will yield very average negatives. For printing, it uses an ingenious comparison method which is so simple it's scary!

By looking at the site, you should be able to draw the line between the dots. If not, I have the full explanation from a French magazine (which I can explain if needed).

Here's the link
http://www.stop-system.com/new/try.html

Enjoy

original_ann · « **Reply #19 on:** September 26, 2009, 02:41:45 AM »

Thank you Francois for a very interesting link!

Francois · « **Reply #20 on:** September 26, 2009, 03:52:13 PM »

You're welcome!

If anybody asks for it, I can write a full blown article on the subject. It will contain much more detail than the site.