Author Topic: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)  (Read 5344 times)

aboot

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why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« on: January 19, 2007, 06:28:06 PM »
first of all, this is stemming off of the 'cliche or serious creative instrument' debate.  secondly, i realize why we are all here, we love to shoot film but i want to here why we aren't using digital. 

digital, according to one of my instructors, is far above film both in quality and ease of use and with photoshop their are third party filters that can be bought to emulate film types and speeds very closely.  so why the hell are we still using film?  is their really any good reason?  after all, it is just another tool.  please tell me and set me straight!

kuru

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 07:24:20 PM »
I personally shoot both. I don't find one superior to the other, just different. Granted, digital is a lot faster to deal with, but there is something nice about holding negs up to the light and picking out images.
Kevin Pointer
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Dave_M

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 08:03:47 PM »
I have a digital SLR that I use for a lot of family snaps as well as mundane stuff (pics for other people, ebay etc). To me it is a little souless (not sure how to define this) and it is the last camera I'll reach for in the camera bag if the work matters to me. I prefer the look and detail that a 6x6 neg gives - my DSLR shots look sterile in comparison. Still... I have used it on occassion.

Digital printing, on the other hand, is something I'm really enjoying.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 11:32:39 PM by Dave_M »

Francois

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!) (long reply)
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 09:26:17 PM »
digital, according to one of my instructors, is far above film both in quality and ease of use
This is truly not true, and I can prove it easily.

Digital excels when it comes to speed and convenience. When you think about it, why is Polaroid always on the brink of bankruptcy?
Digital is a godsend for professional photographers. It can be printed quite large, but to do so, it exploits mathematical magic in Photoshop filters. To get very large images, it is common practice in printing to lower the dpi setting according to the distance the image is viewed at. In the printing industry, 300dpi is considered the point at which the eye doesn't distinguish the individual dots when viewed at a normal distance (about arm length). The further you step back from the image, the bigger the dots can be without noticing it. So, with Digital, you can "cheat" on the quality of the print. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, check out the Rasterbator (http://homokaasu.org/rasterbator/). It allowes you to take a standard low-res picture and blow it up really big using the process I talked about. I even posted my experiment on the ToyCamera forums (http://www.onfal.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=6&topic_id=47537&mesg_id=47537&page=) where I took the lowest resolution camera I could find and printed it 30inches wide.

A few years ago, I read that Kodak evaluated the minimum MegaPixel count a camera should have to match the resolution of a 35mm frame. They came out with 33 MegaPixels! I still am looking for such a resolution from the big companies at a decent price (a Leaf or PhaseOne back for a Hassy doesn't even give that much resolution). My scanner, which is just an off the shelf model, nothing special (it's an Epson) will yield 31Megapixels from a 35mm frame. With a single 6x6 frame, I can scan a photo quality (no visible pixels) print that's over 37 inches wide...

Now, I hear that some will say that film never gave such high resolution... Think again. Those who have been around photography long enough will remember the much loved Kodak Technical Pan. At a resolution of 320 lines/mm, a 35mm frame had about as much resolution as a 4x5 sheet of film. Kodak did pull the plug on this film but another company still makes something that's about as good (if not better). The company is GigabitFilm (http://www.gigabitfilm.de/html/english/menu.htm). They make only one type of film: slow and sharp. If you have spare change, order one of their kits (it uses a specially formulated developer) and give it a try. Showing the negatives will blow the pants off any would be expert. Given it's B&W, but it still kicks.

So, you pretty much have it there:
1) Digital will save the professional photographer big bucks and time given he does everything himself... I heard some professionals say that Digital actually ends up costing them more as they have to hire another person to get every image hand corrected, which can cost a lot. The only place where money is saved is on having no re-shoots. But archiving the images is a nightmare.
2) Film costs more up front. Re-shoots are always possible. But once the film is properly exposed and sent off for processing, the problems are already over. Easy to archive. Can be printed wall size without any trouble. Can be scanned for cheap if needed. It is the best choice for artistic photography in my mind.

I hope I clarified this issue. Any question is welcome.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Tammy

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 10:39:25 PM »
Because I don't HAVE to!  :)  And, I'm sort of glad I feel that way.

 I have seen some damn awesome wonderful pictures shot with film and I want a piece of that.  And, I know I can have some of that too!  It might take me freakin 50 years, but I will.   I do not envelope myself around expensive gadgetry when I know that the other tools work just fine.  Frankly, I waited 20 years to be able to finally afford the cameras I couldn't when I was younger and wanted them so badly.  Now I have them and I'm going to use them.  I still don't have a Hasselblad, but well, I keep telling myself I don't need one.
 :)




aboot

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2007, 01:34:55 AM »
i'm in this little funk where i think if i have the most expensive cameras i'll somehow be a better photographer... but i know that it's not true but still, it's kind of hard to accept sometimes.  i don't have a hassy either, i have a bronica that gives me very nice images.  sometimes i think quality can be very subjective in itself. 

i appreciate all of the information and comments... it has set me straight.  sometimes i feel like i should be following the crowd otherwise i'll be left behind... but i guess getting left behind can sometimes be a good thing. :)

mgd711

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 03:42:34 AM »
I have about $20k in Canon digital equipment and lenses but now I shoot mainly film.

Why?

Probably for the same reason people listen to vinyl. Feels better, more organic, and more analogue!
I can't put my finger on it but the images feel better when shot with 120 film.

Mike
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This-is-damion

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 01:08:30 PM »
also check out this old article

http://filmwasters.com/blog/archives/29


sums it up nicely!

part of the reason i like film photography is the cameras themselves,   clunky, manual etc etc  the physical action of taking a photograph is enjoyable (wierd as though it might sound)  i have only picked up a few digital cameras but they all feel soul less hunks of plastic,  even polaroid hunks of plastic are nicer to lay with that a DSLR!

opinion though!

FrankB

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 02:02:32 PM »
i'm in this little funk where i think if i have the most expensive cameras i'll somehow be a better photographer... but i know that it's not true but still, it's kind of hard to accept sometimes.

I have similar thoughts from time to time. When this happens I go and look at the results Leon Taylor and Susan Burnstine can get with 'toy' cameras. It's a quick and effective cure! (It does sometimes send me into the opposite spiral of wanting a Holga or Fujipet, but I can usually recognise that as pure GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) and resist the urge! (Rollei 35's are a different and shameful story!))

For myself, I spend most of every working day sitting in front of a computer and have done for a decade and a half. I spent most of the preceding decade in front of one during my leisure time. The novelty has worn off. I still experience wonder when I take a processed film off the reel or a print out of the fix. Moving a cursor around a screen or seeing an inkjet print come out of a printer has no magic for me.

Digital has many advantages over film. It also has a lot of disadvantages. I'd be very wary of anyone who claims that something (anything!) is superior in every way to something else. In my experience they are most often unreliable.

sometimes i feel like i should be following the crowd otherwise i'll be left behind... but i guess getting left behind can sometimes be a good thing. :)

Certainly can. Ask a lemming! ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 02:07:20 PM by FrankB »

Francois

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 04:02:03 PM »
sometimes i feel like i should be following the crowd otherwise I'll be left behind... but i guess getting left behind can sometimes be a good thing. :)

I know the social pressure to go all digital is great. I know a guy who, in the late 90's, sold all his Hasselblad gear (even the 500mm rare earth glass lens that cost him a small fortune) to go all digital. I couldn't believe my ears when he bragged about it!
I can still remember him saying: "What, you're still shooting film? How archaic can you be? Me, I do only digital now."

But now, things are slowly changing. I read somewhere that Kodak has seen last year an increase in their professional film sales. People are moving back slowly to film. They probably all lost everything in a hard disk crash.

As for me, I still feel a bit like an alien when I buy film and collect miscellaneous "obsolete" photo stuff. But at least, I know I'm not alone.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

LT

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2007, 06:59:04 PM »
Because I don't HAVE to!  :)  And, I'm sort of glad I feel that way.

Me too Tammy, but also because I dont WANT to.

I could argue the archival angle, but that wont last forever (boom boom), I could go on about resolution and character, but I cant be bothered to be honest.  BTW - no digs at you Aboot, but I feel strongly that FW.COM really isnt the place to be having this discussion - and it's been done to death everywhere else.  When we started the forum, we made it clear that it was just for film users - it really doesnt matter why it is that way, it just is.  Please feel free to take it elsewhere and discuss it as long as you like, but not here please :) (that's not meant to sound as harsh as it reads - more of a freindly,, "no thanks")
L.

aboot

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2007, 07:17:24 PM »
woops... sorry.  i was waiting for that though.  like a day after posting this i decided to look at the "welcome: please read first" post (which i haven't read since i've joined) and realized my error.  didn't mean any harm by it and i take full blame for anyones skin that i might have gotten under.  i don't attend any other forums really, so i've never come across this topic...

once again, sorry... i feel kinda foolish :-\

FrankB

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2007, 07:35:00 PM »
i feel kinda foolish :-\

You should fit in fine around here then...!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 08:32:44 PM by FrankB »

LT

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2007, 09:36:01 AM »
once again, sorry... i feel kinda foolish :-\

really, no problems - you havent got under my skin, just the digi vs film arguement REALLY does! Go over to APUG or photo.net and do a search for digital vs film or digital vs analogue and watch the threads unfurl. the same old voices spouting the same old nonsense.

you are more than welcome here though Aboot, and I hope i havent made you feel otherwise :)
L.

Ron

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2007, 03:08:54 PM »
I see all points here.  While it is kinda in the 'manifesto' to not speak the name DIGI on this forum, it's quite interesting to hear the answer(s) to this question.  We NEVER talk about this and I find it kinda funny since everyone on here is doing something digital to get their images on this site, let alone the fact that many on here do serious post processing with digi software (which I think is awesome, BTW). 

Yeah, this debate/discussion is as tattered as they come and is boring as shit on 99.999% of sites, yet I find it amusing that Aaron posed this blunt question since I don't think it's ever been uttered.  We are virgin territory as such (well we WERE)  ;)
Heck, we all made a conscious decision on this issue and I for one do nothing digitally capture-wise because I just don't find interest there.  Yet, with the amount of post-processing I have seen around here, it's not surprising to think, "Jeez, I could have saved bunches of time, $, etc. if I would have just captured digitally in the first place."  And yes, I understand the whole, "Well, if I capture with my Diana initially, that foundation is not like anything I could build upon if straight digi was used".  My question tho is "Have you tried it to see if you are right??"  We all have seen for the first time lensbabies, etc. allowed on digi cams in the Krappy Kam.  The true 'purists' are rare birds and in most cases are doing only what they want (obviously), but generally are not pushing any boundaries.  Sorry, folks but with RARE exception, most in the business of creativity are NOT using straight archaic methods.  I know this statement will likely bring commentary - Weston was not doing wet plate, Ansel certainly was using the most up-to-date methods of his era and this list goes on.  Yeah, I know Mann and many other are doing wet plate and the resurgence of older processes is hardly over (great  :D), yet their imagery is not ordinary to the process.   Ok, now that I have gotten into other realms, I'd like to say kudos, Aaron for asking  ;)  And thx. to everyone else for being cordial and honest.  That's why I like this place and you folks  ;D

aboot

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Re: why aren't we using digital? (set me straight!)
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2007, 06:42:30 PM »
don't worry about it leon... you didn't make me feel otherwise, i'm cool 8).  i really just wanted to know why we use film but thinking on it know, i can understand how it could turn into a digi vs. film debate which is something that i hate to read about or even hear from anyone else.  maybe i should have presented it different.

digital is digital and film is film... we love it because we do.  i'll just leave it there... :)